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Support & Services => Forum Guidelines, Tips, FAQs & Updates => Topic started by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Oct 16, 2006, 02:27 PM

Title: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Oct 16, 2006, 02:27 PM
Hello,

I am English and have a classical education - I am well aware of the way language evolves and I often fall about in laughter at American English. I love Americans.

However, I see that BBM fans seem to describe themselves as Brokies - after Trekies and the like I assume.

The trouble is that the word "Brokies" should be pronounced with an "ok' sound, as in clock.

Strictly speaking Brokeies would be the most logical and literal way to write what is spoken, but the eie letter combination is unnatural to English.

Might I suggest the following spelling - Brokeys? This lends itself to being pronounced "bro-keys" and so retains the "Broke" sound. 

Saul (Edmund Paul Charnley, Baron of Ree).
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: aimi15 on Oct 16, 2006, 02:33 PM
There has been a discussion relating to this on another BBM board, where they have decided against 'Brokies' because of its relation to 'Trekkies', and are using 'Brokeaholic' instead. I say Brokie - only because i am so used to spelling it that way now - don't know if i could get myself out of that habit!! ;) ;)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Oct 16, 2006, 03:02 PM
Then I shall perhaps refer to myself as a Brokeback Mountaineer!

Saul
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: aimi15 on Oct 16, 2006, 03:14 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: chameau on Oct 18, 2006, 10:30 PM
Quote
Might I suggest the following spelling - Brokeys? This lends itself to being pronounced "bro-keys" and so retains the "Broke" sound.

I'm not an English speaking person I mean it's not my first language;  French is, I'm French Canadian.  When I switch to the English speaking/writing mode I feel a bit odd because the American English and the English from England (I'm not mentioning Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Australia, New-Zealand etc...) are a bit different and even us Canadians have some local expressions and accents.  I guess Brokie is already in use for a while (at least here) and is going to remain but, I'll make sure we will mention this thread in the next Newsletter, I look forward for some interesting discussion here.  Good point for you, Brokeys passed the Spell Check... Brokie did not   ;)

Thanks Saul for starting this thread.
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Rønnaug on Oct 19, 2006, 01:40 AM
Nope :)

But thanks for the insight..not beeing english or american nor aussie it is always great to get these kinds of explanations.. I write how I feel in here tho..somethimes I write they sometime thay hehe... I also use u instead of you and so forth.. please don't hang me for completly tearing apart the wonderful english language... (sometimes I just plain misspell ortype to fast and don't check )

But Brokie is far closer to how it is natural for me to say it... and haivng spent almost a year on this forum using it thats what it will be :)

Can't wait to meet u Saul aty the egt :) get to know u better :)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Oct 19, 2006, 06:06 AM

I'm not an English speaking person I mean it's not my first language;  French is, I'm French Canadian.  When I switch to the English speaking/writing mode I feel a bit odd because the American English and the English from England (I'm not mentioning Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Australia, New-Zealand etc...) are a bit different and even us Canadians have some local expressions and accents.  I guess Brokie is already in use for a while (at least here) and is going to remain but, I'll make sure we will mention this thread in the next Newsletter, I look forward for some interesting discussion here.  Good point for you, Brokeys passed the Spell Check... Brokie did not   ;)

Thanks Saul for starting this thread.
Quote

You are welcome! Its nice to be bi-lingual.

Engish of course has national variations and local dialects - even I have trouble understanding people with Scottish accents from the big cities and American English as spoken by some Black people. Scottish, Irish, Cornish and Welsh accents in English all have a Celtic language undertones to them. In Wales and Irland particularly many people speak Celtic languages in daily life.

French is more standardised in general is it not? There is a lot be said for that. English is just free to evolve.

Je suis brokie, oh la al!

Saul



Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: welshwitch on Oct 19, 2006, 08:18 AM
There's no point in expecting Americans( Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians, etc.) to use English correctly! They can't handle a pendant particpial clause or an ablative absolute, so why would they understand conventions of spelling and pronunciation?

 :) &**) :)

OK, I'm off - at light speed.
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Oct 19, 2006, 02:03 PM
There's no point in expecting Americans( Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians, etc.) to use English correctly! They can't handle a pendant particpial clause or an ablative absolute, so why would they understand conventions of spelling and pronunciation?

 :) &**) :)

OK, I'm off - at light speed.

Well really. There is no need to swear! ;)

Saul
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: jason on Nov 20, 2006, 01:20 AM
The trouble is that the word "Brokies" should be pronounced with an "ok' sound, as in clock.

Hallo Jack F. Twist,

That's a great handle.  Only afficionados would understand! Hell, Annie P. herself might be confused.  Get the impression she probably hasn't seen the movie as often us Brokies. On the same tack, in an earlier post I suggested starting a watering hole at the foot of some appropriate mountain in Wyo or Alberta called the Jack F*ckin Twist Saloon.  But using this as a handle is inspired!  Yeah, I'm a touch envious, only that's a mean spirited emotion, unworthy of the big time, that BBM insists we follow.

Spelling Brokies:  With full Southern respect (I live in Texas), may I disagree?  Surely a rhyme with clock, as you suggest, would be rendered as Brockies, with a most necessary "c."  But Brokies faithfully follows a dominant form in English of the long vowel in midword being retained,
(i) before a single final consonant -- so smoke becomes Smokies, our famous example (Mountains in these United States), versus Windies where two consonants shorten the "i;"
(ii) even when other vowels slide in for the final e -- infinite number of examples where other final vowels keep the prior vowel long ... smoking (versus smocking), loping (versus lopping), roping, fuming, futile, nubile, nudity, etc.

Brokey works, but usage has surely set Brokie/brokie in the granite a Wyomin's Granite Mts. (SE of Riverton a ways).  We could always ax Fowler.

Best,

jason
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Nov 20, 2006, 11:48 AM
Hello Jason,

The F. stands for Frederick.  ;D Strange that St. Annie can throw the F word about with gay abandon but that word is not allowed here without stars repacing letters, a sort of digital fig-leaf. Amusing. But then it is wonderfully safe here.

Brokie is just about acceptable to my way of thinking. Its the pleural form I really object to somehow. Brokies just looks wrong to me.

But the English is far from logical in its spelling. The thing is we all share the same love for the story, screenplay and film.
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Rønnaug on Nov 20, 2006, 11:54 AM
I have never seen Star Trek fans referred to or reffering to themselves as TREKYES...

Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Nov 20, 2006, 12:12 PM
I have never seen Star Trek fans referred to or reffering to themselves as TREKYES...



No. It should be Trekeys.  &**)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Rønnaug on Nov 20, 2006, 01:29 PM
Point beeing they have forever been known as trekies
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: lamusica on Nov 20, 2006, 01:46 PM
Some spellings in American English have to do with emotions.  I know this is a strange concept to some, but, nevertheless, it is true.  The -ies ending denotes something small and dear ( cherished); therefore "brokies" are wee, loveable creatures -- spelling be damned.  I think the word "brokies" looks more endearing than "brokeys", which, in my opinion, looks mechanical.
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: aimi15 on Nov 20, 2006, 02:19 PM
Some spellings in American English have to do with emotions.  I know this is a strange concept to some, but, nevertheless, it is true.  The -ies ending denotes something small and dear ( cherished); therefore "brokies" are wee, loveable creatures -- spelling be damned.  I think the word "brokies" looks more endearing than "brokeys", which, in my opinion, looks mechanical.
Aw, this is lovely reasoning for using Brokies as opposed to Brokeys. I hate Brokeys too - it looks wrong, and Esmelily you are right, it's always been Trekies, so i hope it will always be 'Brokies' :)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Nov 20, 2006, 04:55 PM
Some spellings in American English have to do with emotions.  I know this is a strange concept to some, but, nevertheless, it is true.  The -ies ending denotes something small and dear ( cherished); therefore "brokies" are wee, loveable creatures -- spelling be damned.  I think the word "brokies" looks more endearing than "brokeys", which, in my opinion, looks mechanical.

This throws a new light on things. I had quite forgotton the whole "-ies" thing was from American English.

How about spelling it Brokeys in the UK and Brokies in the US? At least it is pronounced the same! As in colour and color. Unlike pavement and side-walk, lift and elevator etc. etc. !!
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Rønnaug on Nov 20, 2006, 04:57 PM
I think you are fighting a battle you cannot win here saul, it has been brokies here for a long time and I can't imagine those of us that likes the english english will give it up . Personally I just think brokeys souns like a broken key...
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Nov 20, 2006, 05:08 PM
I think you are fighting a battle you cannot win here saul, it has been brokies here for a long time and I can't imagine those of us that likes the english english will give it up . Personally I just think brokeys souns like a broken key...

Never mind. #I'll spell it my way# to miss-quote the song and let the world do as it will!
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: *Froggy* on Nov 21, 2006, 08:21 AM
I think you are fighting a battle you cannot win here saul, it has been brokies here for a long time and I can't imagine those of us that likes the english english will give it up . Personally I just think brokeys souns like a broken key...

Never mind. #I'll spell it my way# to miss-quote the song and let the world do as it will!

You do that...and we keep our beloved brokie ;)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: welshwitch on Nov 21, 2006, 11:28 AM
Actually to be pedntic ( which I'm good at) the "ies" ending can be either a normal English plural of words ending in -consonant y ,such as "puppy" or " kitty" or if you prefer baby or diary, or can be a diminutive - eg the Scots talk about "sweeties" when they mean "sweets".

To follow the rules "Brokie" wouyld either have toi be a non-existent singular form of plural Brokies and would be "Broky" or a diminutive form - the Scots use "sweetie" as a singulr and it's also baby talk in England. But in English baby talk it's a regular plural of the diminutive "dolly" - "dollies" and is naff either way to my mnd.

Enflish words ending in "e" eg "stone" make adjectival forms by adding "y" and dropping the "e" hence "stony". thus Brokey would alsol ook irregular, except that if you dropped the "e" in this case the pronunciation would be  * "brokkee" so "Brokey" would keep the rules insofar as there are any.

And Star Trek fans are Trekkies - with only one "k" the word would sound like *"treekees"

None of this is any help but proves I can do verbiage and obfuscation as well as the next guy. :)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Nov 21, 2006, 02:27 PM
I can do verbiage and obfuscation

You should get a job as an anouncer in an old time music hall!
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: *Froggy* on Nov 21, 2006, 02:28 PM
Quote
None of this is any help but proves I can do verbiage and obfuscation as well as the next guy.


 :clap: :8 :clap: :8 :clap: :8
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Rønnaug on Nov 21, 2006, 03:10 PM


None of this is any help but proves I can do verbiage and obfuscation as well as the next guy. :)

Yes you can (Whatever that might be)... and frankly my dear I don't give a damn ;) I am a Brokie cause I am sweet and little, like your babytalk ;)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Nov 21, 2006, 03:15 PM

Yes you can (Whatever that might be)... and frankly my dear I don't give a damn ;) I am a Brokie cause I am sweet and little, like your babytalk ;)

Little darlin'!
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: orangetruck on Jun 06, 2007, 01:05 AM
 :8@this thread.

So my little book of ok's goes like this:

Brocky, brockies - the short 'o' sound as in 'clock'

Broke, brokies - the long 'o' as in 'bone'

Broky and brokey may pass, but where I grew up, a place of let's say 48-50 roughcut little segments of Earth, when the form becomes plural, it snatches the 'ies' treatment. Kind of like when you have blistering hot hemorhoids and you put Preparation H cream on 'em, you 'ease' away the pain. You 'ies' away the hard time you'd be having, had you grated the sumbitches off with broken keys.

Maybe it's a geological thing. Puppys, monkeys, buddys just seem out of place here, to me.
After all, we're not alone. We are not singular. We're more than one; we're a family of ~
And that alone makes it iesier on everybody.  :cr)

This has been my broken but familiar logic.  $)

 :^^)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 06, 2007, 03:07 PM
Spelling in English has little to do with logic!
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: orangetruck on Jun 06, 2007, 03:57 PM
Spelling in English has little to do with logic!

Hence the broken little pieces of it, sparce, with just enough to cling to and make personal.  :^^)  <^(
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Ty on Jun 06, 2007, 04:43 PM
There's no point in expecting Americans( Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians, etc.) to use English correctly! They can't handle a pendant particpial clause or an ablative absolute, so why would they understand conventions of spelling and pronunciation?

 :) &**) :)

OK, I'm off - at light speed.
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u252/kinxkitty/SMILEYS/hairraising.gif) wutevur do u meen? ;D

Brokeys just doesn't look right, it reminds me of monkeys :i 
Brokies is just what it is. ;)  Sorry I have nothing significant to add to the discussion.
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: boo_boo on Jun 08, 2007, 03:29 PM
People from Oklahoma are called Okies so the spelling of Brokies makes sense to me.  That's my 2 cents. ;D
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 09, 2007, 05:15 AM
People from Oklahoma are called Okies so the spelling of Brokies makes sense to me.  That's my 2 cents. ;D

The great thing about English is that there is no official body that decides on spelling, grammar or even words (as opposed to many other languages such as French and Dutch which has committees to decide on official spellings).  The English dictionaries simply reflect what is in common or less common use per nation and or regional dialect. If a word catches on, or a spelling or pronunciation variation occurs - that is all part of the course.

Different words sometimes occur meaning the same thing; Such as sofa, couch and settee - all meaning the same furniture but each word denoting the British social class you come form or aspire to. Get  your accent right but the word wrong and you are clearly faking your social status.

English is a constantly evolving language of all the peoples who use it. Yet almost everyone can understand eachother immediately (with laughter) regardless of their nationality or dialect.

JFT
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: orangetruck on Jun 09, 2007, 05:22 AM

 ......

English is a constantly evolving language of all the peoples who use it. Yet almost everyone can understand eachother immediately, regardless of their nationality or dialect.

JFT

Ok, so I'm much more apt to trust this statement. In fact, I agree; this is a far stretch from the first post I read here.
 :cr)

Like Irish whiskey and Canadian whisky, sure they look different. And surely one even tastes considerably better.
And it sure as shit ain't the latter.  ;D
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 09, 2007, 05:26 AM
Ok, so I'm much more apt to trust this statement. In fact, I agree; this is a far stretch from the first post I read here.
 :cr)

Like Irish whiskey and Canadian whisky, sure they look different. And surely one even tastes considerably better.
And it sure as shit ain't the latter.  ;D

This is the liberal approach, yes. But being difficult is so much fun!  &**)

Must people get all  ^*) about language - its such a human thing.
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: orangetruck on Jun 09, 2007, 05:38 AM
This is the liberal approach, yes. But being difficult is so much fun!  &**)

Must people get all  ^*) about language - its such a human thing.

I think being difficult and being provocative are separated by a faint line which is mainly drawn by the perspective of whoever's interested.
I personally liked watching this thread evolve.

Refreshing at the least.  $)

I like how the English language galvanizes the intricate possibilities of expression. Many words do ring identical bells but with different origins, histories, strengths; it makes for a strong swing, a loud or melodic noise.
The more exquisite the tools, the greater the sculpted visual, IMO.  :s)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 09, 2007, 05:44 AM

The more exquisite the tools, the greater the sculpted visual, IMO. 


Well, its a combination of tools and chraftmaship as far as an art form is concerned. But then again, there is a lot to be said for less educated people and the language they use. Its all communication and they all need to be taken seriously as individuals.
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 09, 2007, 05:46 AM
Well, its a combination of tools and chraftmaship as far as an art form is concerned. But then again, there is a lot to be said for less educated people and the language they use. Its all communication and they all need to be taken seriously as individuals.

And Ennis and Jack where anything but well educated.
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: orangetruck on Jun 09, 2007, 06:28 AM
And Ennis and Jack where anything but well educated.

In my book, and it may be Greek, it's all a form of art. Anything being delivered outside from within where it was born from a single thought is art. I just find the process fascinating, but then it doesn't take much.

E and J may not have had many of said tools, and they had to do a lot of reading between lines. There's a lot to language, but not all of it is necessary. Look at how easy it is to relate or identify with Ennis and Jack. One and/or the other.
In retrospect, I'm sometimes comfortable with the idea that one was blinded by fear, the other by love, and that they craved the same thing. Other times, I'm much weaker and find myself designing their chemistry with grey areas that lead my heart to a sanctuary away from tragedy or loss.
It seems impossible just how much power words have. I understand I have abused the English language as if it were a privelage.
And also that Annie wouldn't have crafted such a tent spike to our hearts, had she been concerned with her P's and Q's.

Kudos.

 :c)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 09, 2007, 10:38 AM
In my book, and it may be Greek, it's all a form of art.

There is a lot to be said for that.


 I understand I have abused the English language as if it were a privelage.

How do you get to this point though? You sound as if you have done something wrong!

And also that Annie wouldn't have crafted such a tent spike to our hearts, had she been concerned with her P's and Q's.

Annie tends to use a lot of F's  ;D

Kudos.

 :c)

Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: orangetruck on Jun 09, 2007, 04:41 PM

There is a lot to be said for that.

Oh good..  ;D

How do you get to this point though? You sound as if you have done something wrong!

Just sarcasm.  ;) English seems to have come packaged with knives and chissels for our bloody editing pleasures. Hell, I think it even comes with a spatula and some nutmeg 'cause it knows we be gettin' the munchies often.  :d)

Annie tends to use a lot of F's

The F's certainly had jumped come out of the woodwork on high altitude occasion. It's just inevitable one of those things.

Mmm, damn flashbacks!  :f)  (^)


Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 10, 2007, 02:20 PM
I've not for nothing taken the virtual name of Jack F. Twist!

You should read some of Annies other stories. They are very naughty! I only ever read mine under the covers with a torch!
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: orangetruck on Jun 10, 2007, 05:19 PM
I've not for nothing taken the virtual name of Jack F. Twist!

You should read some of Annies other stories. They are very naughty! I only ever read mine under the covers with a torch!

 ;D

 *o), but I spent about 25 minutes in Barnes & Noble's Annie P. section alone. There were a handful of her short stories and novels, and I was really close to picking one. I'm not even sure why I hadn't. But now I think it's because I've too little closure with BBM to comfortably accept only part of its equation.

I give it time.  O0
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 11, 2007, 02:02 PM

 *o),

Well, its not about spelling as such but it is to do with writing, so thats close enough!

but I spent about 25 minutes in Barnes & Noble's Annie P. section alone. There were a handful of her short stories and novels, and I was really close to picking one. I'm not even sure why I hadn't. But now I think it's because I've too little closure with BBM to comfortably accept only part of its equation.

I give it time.  O0

Actually, to be brutally honest, nothing else I have read by Annie P. comes close to BBM in terms of impact and quality. I have given up reading two of her books, I just start skimping more and more and then think - why bother reading any more if I am so bored? Its like BBM is the real gem among the paste. Only BBM has that ghostly real feeling to it as if everything about it is alive and dead at the same time. Its a one off. Only once in the lifetime of a thousand authors does anyone write something that good. And that is a compliment.

Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: orangetruck on Jun 13, 2007, 04:40 AM

Actually, to be brutally honest, nothing else I have read by Annie P. comes close to BBM in terms of impact and quality. I have given up reading two of her books, I just start skimping more and more and then think - why bother reading any more if I am so bored? Its like BBM is the real gem among the paste. Only BBM has that ghostly real feeling to it as if everything about it is alive and dead at the same time. Its a one off. Only once in the lifetime of a thousand authors does anyone write something that good. And that is a compliment.


Yeah.
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: chameau on Jun 13, 2007, 07:59 PM
Sorry guys but it's slighty off topic for while here, thanks! ;)
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 14, 2007, 02:12 PM
Yeah.

OT, should we move this conversation to another thread, strictly confine our discussion to spelling, or stop?
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: chameau on Jun 14, 2007, 05:26 PM
This thread is dedicated to spelling
Title: Re: Spelling
Post by: Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree on Jun 15, 2007, 01:18 PM
This thread is dedicated to spelling

Hello Chameau,

Yes, thats fine!

It looks like we have decided to take the converation off this thread and over to private mail to make things a bit less confined to one topic. That's always an option I forget we all have on this forum!

Best wishes, JFT