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Characters, Quotes & Scenes / Re: The significance of wind in the short story
« Last post by Marionut on Apr 19, 2018, 04:48 AM »It's a very good short story, I like it a lot, I hope to read another good story.
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Characters, Quotes & Scenes / Re: did u notice ? one mismatch i don't understand
« Last post by annbutler on Apr 03, 2018, 05:39 PM »Yes, I can agree with you, this scene was really hard for actors
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Characters, Quotes & Scenes / The significance of wind in the short story
« Last post by Bubz on Mar 27, 2018, 05:12 AM »Hi everyone,
I have been really intrigued by Annie Proulx’s descriptions and use of weather, and especially wind, in the short story. Wind seems to always appear at times when change or important scenes are about to take place. I am wondering if there are any patterns that anyone noticed related to wind or interpretations that you had.
Here is a list I made of all ten appearances of “wind” in the short story:
1. It is mentioned three times in the introductory paragraphs in which we meet Ennis and hear about his dreams. Wind “rocks the trailer,” “booms down the curved length of the trailer,” and strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies, leaves a temporary silence.”
2. “Ennis and Jack, the dogs, horses and mules, a thousand ewes and their lambs” ascend into the mountain’s flowery meadows and the “coursing, endless wind” as the summer on Brokeback in 1963 begins.
3. Ennis is “riding against the wind” (which seems to be tremendously meaningful; for once in his life he is going against the status quo?) as he goes back to the sheep, having such a good time that he feels “he could paw the white out of the moon.”
4. Before Jack and Ennis have their first sexual encounter, Ennis realizes he’s too drunk and it’s too late to “go out to them damn sheep,” and as he decides to stay the night with Jack in the camp “a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes.”
5. Although there is no direct mention of wind, a “blowy hailstorm” does cause Jack and Ennis’ sheep to mix with those of the Chilean shepherd, leading Ennis to feel that “in a disquieting way everything seems mixed.”
6. As Jack and Ennis descend from brokeback, the wind “combed the grass” and draws a “bestial drone” from the surrounding trees and rocks.
7. When Jack and Ennis have their final conversation before they part after the summer on Brokeback, the wind appears twice. First it is “gusting hard and cold” after Jack asks Ennis if he will return next summer, and then it “tumbles an empty feed bag down the street” after Ennis says he’ll see Jack around.
Notably, when Jack and Ennis are apart until 1967, there is no mention of wind.
8. When Jack and Ennis are reuniting in the motel room, hail and rain rattle against the window, “followed by…a slippery wind banging the unsecured door of the next room then and through the night.”
9. During their final trip into the mountains in 1983, Ennis notices the weather and anticipates a storm but the sky is so blue that Jack believes “he might drown looking up” (a beautiful metaphor of the differences between the two men, perhaps). Then, on the third morning, Ennis sees the gray clouds that he expected (another metaphor) as “a bar of darkness driving wind before it.”
10. The final mention of wind is when Ennis feels the weight of the realization of Jack’s death during his phone call with Lureen. As “the huge sadness of the Northern plains rolls down on him,” he hears the imagined sounds of Jack’s murder “under the wind drone.”
Then, again, no more wind is mentioned as they are apart once more.
What do you make of this? How do you interpret wind as a character and a symbol in this story? What about weather as a whole?
I have been really intrigued by Annie Proulx’s descriptions and use of weather, and especially wind, in the short story. Wind seems to always appear at times when change or important scenes are about to take place. I am wondering if there are any patterns that anyone noticed related to wind or interpretations that you had.
Here is a list I made of all ten appearances of “wind” in the short story:
1. It is mentioned three times in the introductory paragraphs in which we meet Ennis and hear about his dreams. Wind “rocks the trailer,” “booms down the curved length of the trailer,” and strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies, leaves a temporary silence.”
2. “Ennis and Jack, the dogs, horses and mules, a thousand ewes and their lambs” ascend into the mountain’s flowery meadows and the “coursing, endless wind” as the summer on Brokeback in 1963 begins.
3. Ennis is “riding against the wind” (which seems to be tremendously meaningful; for once in his life he is going against the status quo?) as he goes back to the sheep, having such a good time that he feels “he could paw the white out of the moon.”
4. Before Jack and Ennis have their first sexual encounter, Ennis realizes he’s too drunk and it’s too late to “go out to them damn sheep,” and as he decides to stay the night with Jack in the camp “a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes.”
5. Although there is no direct mention of wind, a “blowy hailstorm” does cause Jack and Ennis’ sheep to mix with those of the Chilean shepherd, leading Ennis to feel that “in a disquieting way everything seems mixed.”
6. As Jack and Ennis descend from brokeback, the wind “combed the grass” and draws a “bestial drone” from the surrounding trees and rocks.
7. When Jack and Ennis have their final conversation before they part after the summer on Brokeback, the wind appears twice. First it is “gusting hard and cold” after Jack asks Ennis if he will return next summer, and then it “tumbles an empty feed bag down the street” after Ennis says he’ll see Jack around.
Notably, when Jack and Ennis are apart until 1967, there is no mention of wind.
8. When Jack and Ennis are reuniting in the motel room, hail and rain rattle against the window, “followed by…a slippery wind banging the unsecured door of the next room then and through the night.”
9. During their final trip into the mountains in 1983, Ennis notices the weather and anticipates a storm but the sky is so blue that Jack believes “he might drown looking up” (a beautiful metaphor of the differences between the two men, perhaps). Then, on the third morning, Ennis sees the gray clouds that he expected (another metaphor) as “a bar of darkness driving wind before it.”
10. The final mention of wind is when Ennis feels the weight of the realization of Jack’s death during his phone call with Lureen. As “the huge sadness of the Northern plains rolls down on him,” he hears the imagined sounds of Jack’s murder “under the wind drone.”
Then, again, no more wind is mentioned as they are apart once more.
What do you make of this? How do you interpret wind as a character and a symbol in this story? What about weather as a whole?
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News Coverage, Reviews & Awards / Re: Various Articles/Interviews
« Last post by tpe on Mar 26, 2018, 09:31 PM »Thanks Romeo!
BBM is a keeper.
BBM is a keeper.
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News Coverage, Reviews & Awards / Re: Various Articles/Interviews
« Last post by Romeo164 on Mar 25, 2018, 12:09 AM »After all these years, somebody is still writing about our film. I found this article in a university newspaper from SUNY Oswego in upstate New York.
https://www.oswegonian.com/2018/03/02/brokeback-mountain-was-always-better-than-crash/
https://www.oswegonian.com/2018/03/02/brokeback-mountain-was-always-better-than-crash/
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Characters, Quotes & Scenes / Re: "North Pole or Equator"
« Last post by Bubz on Mar 22, 2018, 02:36 PM »So this line isn't in the movie; it describes the first sexual interaction we see between Ennis and Alma in the short story. I just never understood the symbolism of that line.
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Characters, Quotes & Scenes / Re: "North Pole or Equator"
« Last post by dorisbennett on Mar 20, 2018, 08:44 AM »Hm.. this is interesting. It depends on context. I should watch the movie one more time to answer this question
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Characters, Quotes & Scenes / Re: Ennis VS Randall
« Last post by davidinnyc on Mar 16, 2018, 11:22 AM »I think that the message of the movie is about the impact of societal homophobia on one man. Because it doesn’t matter how Jack died. What matters is that Ennis believes he was murdered. He was always convinced that this was the inevitable end for two men who wanted to be together – at least one of them would be dead at the hands of angry men. It’s what he was wired to believe. The tragedy of the story is that Ennis never escaped the lessons of his youth and the image of Earl in that ditch. He was never able to see a world where two men could be happy – and safe – together.
Thanks FlwrChild for your post. I think what you said it very insightful and offers a different perspective to look into Jack's death.I have a few points to make based on my understanding of your post, tho. If my understanding is off, please let me know. Haha.
1. I get the point that it's not how Jack died matters but rather how Ennis believes he died matters. Like I said, I think it's very insightful. But I get a hint of the reasoning here being "Lureen's ambiguous story gives Ennis a chance to believe Jack's murdered, thus we can see Ennis can never escape his childhood shadow." I personally think this argument is not logically strong enough. If the point is "Ennis cannot escape his childhood and believes Earl's death is how gay men end", then the stronger case to make the point would be "Ennis believes Jack's murdered even when he was told Jack died in a plausible accident, like a car accident". Right now Lureen's story doe not only make Ennis think Jack's murdered, it also make many other people feel like something is off and those people don't have the same childhood issues that Ennis has. It's just a fishy story, not just to Ennis, but to everyone. I think even for people who choose to believe Lureen's story had to give it a second thought and tried to convince themselves this might be some weird possibility.
2. I personally have no car fixing experience either. But I think you don't need that experience to doubt the credibility of Lureen's story. It's basic physics. When the tire blows up, there is an energy release (gravitational potential energy) and it's possible the rim could fly out. When the rim flies out, it can only fly out horizontally and not upwards. If the rim hit Jack's face, that means Jack was almost lying on the ground fixing the car, which is odd already. But let's say somehow Jack's face was hit by the rim. No matter what, the rim can only hit Jack's face once. And according to Lureen, this one hit accomplished 4 things: "break his nose""break his jaw""knock him unconscious""on the back". It's highly impossible that the flying rim would carry that much energy to do this. It's a tire rim, not a bomb.
I agree that Ennis has his own issues. But I don't think that's the only message that film makers are sending here. If Lureen told Ennis that Jack died from a car accident (which is a lot more plausible) and Ennis still thinks Jack's murdered in his head, then the movie still leaves Jack death ambiguous because we still can't tell if Lureen told the truth and Ennis obviously doesn't believe her. If the movie ended this way, I think the message focus more on Ennis' issue. It's his own issue that took away his happy life together with Jack. But the movie makers let Lureen told a cover-up sounding story, I think it implies more about Jack's murder and Ennis' fear is real and necessary. That's why many gay man like Ennis live in fear.
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Characters, Quotes & Scenes / Re: Ennis VS Randall
« Last post by FlwrChild on Mar 15, 2018, 06:38 PM »I’m actually going to disagree with you guys on this one. I think the film (like the original story) leaves it ambiguous as to how Jack died for a reason. I think that the message of the movie is about the impact of societal homophobia on one man. Because it doesn’t matter how Jack died. What matters is that Ennis believes he was murdered. He was always convinced that this was the inevitable end for two men who wanted to be together – at least one of them would be dead at the hands of angry men. It’s what he was wired to believe. The tragedy of the story is that Ennis never escaped the lessons of his youth and the image of Earl in that ditch. He was never able to see a world where two men could be happy – and safe – together. So no matter how hard Jack lobbied for that life (and no matter how badly Ennis might have wanted it too), it was never going to happen because Ennis couldn’t move past that fear and he wasn’t willing to take that chance. Jack believed in that life and seemed to think it was worth it to take that risk. Much like Rich and Earl.* Ironically, after all his years of efforts to protect them, Ennis still lost Jack and ended up in a world without him.
*{I think it would be interesting to have a talk with both Ennis and Rich to find out which of the two men regretted their choices more – would it have been better to let go of the love of his life to ensure their safety and never have the life together that they did or better to take the chance, have that life, and lose his partner to violence but have the memories of their shared time together to hold onto for the rest of his life? Hmmm.}
As for whether Jack decided to walk away from Ennis after that last confrontation, I’ll always go back to the dozy embrace and how the original story described it. Of their fight it said, “…they’d torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.” And of the embrace, “Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.”
I realize of course that those words did not appear in the movie so I would not criticize anyone else’s interpretation, nor would I suggest that mine is any better or more accurate than anyone else’s. It’s just the feeling I hold onto because it hurts too much for me to contemplate a world where Jack gives up on Ennis.
Oh and having read many other message boards on this topic when the movie first came out, I have to say that like both of you I thought the accident as described by Lureen sounded a little implausible but a lot of people posted that such an accident is not actually that unheard of. Go figure. I don’t know anything about cars. Or tires.
*{I think it would be interesting to have a talk with both Ennis and Rich to find out which of the two men regretted their choices more – would it have been better to let go of the love of his life to ensure their safety and never have the life together that they did or better to take the chance, have that life, and lose his partner to violence but have the memories of their shared time together to hold onto for the rest of his life? Hmmm.}
As for whether Jack decided to walk away from Ennis after that last confrontation, I’ll always go back to the dozy embrace and how the original story described it. Of their fight it said, “…they’d torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.” And of the embrace, “Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.”
I realize of course that those words did not appear in the movie so I would not criticize anyone else’s interpretation, nor would I suggest that mine is any better or more accurate than anyone else’s. It’s just the feeling I hold onto because it hurts too much for me to contemplate a world where Jack gives up on Ennis.
Oh and having read many other message boards on this topic when the movie first came out, I have to say that like both of you I thought the accident as described by Lureen sounded a little implausible but a lot of people posted that such an accident is not actually that unheard of. Go figure. I don’t know anything about cars. Or tires.
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Characters, Quotes & Scenes / Re: Ennis VS Randall
« Last post by davidinnyc on Mar 15, 2018, 12:25 PM »IMO the story Lureen told on the phone sounds too weird to be true. A car accident Yes, but that?
Yes. As I said before, from a movie making perspective, the film makers do imply more about the murder being what happened. Otherwise, they would tell a more solid sounding accident and not the cover-up sounding one Lureen told.