Topic: fishing buddies--possible spoilers

[shieldmaid]

So when Ennis and Jack are finally reunited after 4 years, the first hint we have of their meeting is the postcard Jack sends to Ennis.  Alma says, "Do you know someone name of Jack?", and Ennis replies, "Maybe.  Why?"  Alma gives him the card and asks if they "cowboyed" together, and Ennis responds, "We was fishing buddies."  I'm wondering now, after 3 viewings and having read the story countless times, if Ennis was already preparing a kind of alibi for the time he would be spending with Jack.  Did he say "fishing buddies" instead of telling her of their time on Brokeback so he would have a reason to get away with Jack?  Was he already planning ahead to their time together--or am I reading too much into this phrase?  It just struck me, since this is the first moment we see in the film when he is not totally honest with Alma (granted, we don't see too many of their interactions before this).

Thoughts?

Thanks, and peace--

[Soldier-of-Rome]

So when Ennis and Jack are finally reunited after 4 years, the first hint we have of their meeting is the postcard Jack sends to Ennis.  Alma says, "Do you know someone name of Jack?", and Ennis replies, "Maybe.  Why?"  Alma gives him the card and asks if they "cowboyed" together, and Ennis responds, "We was fishing buddies."  I'm wondering now, after 3 viewings and having read the story countless times, if Ennis was already preparing a kind of alibi for the time he would be spending with Jack.  Did he say "fishing buddies" instead of telling her of their time on Brokeback so he would have a reason to get away with Jack?  Was he already planning ahead to their time together--or am I reading too much into this phrase?  It just struck me, since this is the first moment we see in the film when he is not totally honest with Alma (granted, we don't see too many of their interactions before this).

Thoughts?

Thanks, and peace--

That is a very good point and I thought I had though of just about every scene and symbol in the movie.  I had dismissed it as a kind of "catch all" that anyone would have said of anyone else in that day and age.  But the way you mention it in context has a real significance that I had not considered. 

The big follow-on scene, I must say (er, confess) that their entire reunion really gets me to emoting.  First, watching Ennis pine at the window, drinking and smoking is almost painful so I get very wrapped up in the symbolism behind all that.

I will have to give that one some thought.

[rane99]

Did he say "fishing buddies" instead of telling her of their time on Brokeback so he would have a reason to get away with Jack?  Was he already planning ahead to their time together--or am I reading too much into this phrase?  It just struck me, since this is the first moment we see in the film when he is not totally honest with Alma (granted, we don't see too many of their interactions before this).

Thoughts?
Thanks, and peace--

Thats a good question.. Why would Ennis lie? I don't recall them guys doing any fishing for his statement to be true.  It seemed to me  he was caught off guard by a sudden question about his male lover and he answered it with a generic response. Notice he was walking out of the room as he was answering. He did not want to/could not be asked any more questions about Jack.  Ennis had no reason to believe he would ever see Jack again.  They didn't exchange addresses.  They never talked about seeing each other after they departed.  So, I don't think he was planning ahead of time.  Just confused on what Jack's arrival would mean.  Look at his furrowed brow while he waits for Jack to show up and watch him beam with joy when Jack finally pulls up.

[Kindred]

In the short story, Ennis had no original plans to spend time with Jack after the night in the motel.  It's Jack that suggests they go spend a few days in the mountains.  My impression was that it was just a lie that came to mind after Ennis was taken by surprise at the mention of Jacks name.

[scruffy]

I think there was one reference to fishing when the guys were tending sheep on Brokeback Mountain.  After they shoot the Elk I think Jack says "Lets see if we can get some trout to go with that Elk."

[rane99]

I think there was one reference to fishing when the guys were tending sheep on Brokeback Mountain.  After they shoot the Elk I think Jack says "Lets see if we can get some trout to go with that Elk."

Whew! I think you are right. I was hoping that Ennis wasn't lying.  I feel much better now!

[tpe]

I think there was one reference to fishing when the guys were tending sheep on Brokeback Mountain.  After they shoot the Elk I think Jack says "Lets see if we can get some trout to go with that Elk."

I must admit, I cannot hear what was exactly said by Gyllenhaal in the movie, but I had always assumed that he followed the screenplay here.  The screenplay says (if I remember correctly): Jack tells Ennis that they should hurry before they get caught by the fish and wildlife rangers (my paraphrase...)  It may be possible that Gyllenhaal strayed from the screenplay here.  Not sure.

[manila_rocks]

Shieldmaid.  That's a most interesting observation.   I think it likely he was plotting an alibi for future liaisons.

[kcristob]

I'm wondering now, after 3 viewings and having read the story countless times, if Ennis was already preparing a kind of alibi for the time he would be spending with Jack.  Did he say "fishing buddies" instead of telling her of their time on Brokeback so he would have a reason to get away with Jack?

This is a great  question.  It's floated around in my head, but didn't really surface until you asked it.  I sort of thought that the reason he didn't say they were together one summer was because of the implied intimacy.   Even though Alma doesn't know about the real intimacy - Ennis does - and talking about that would make him feel vulnerable.

Sometimes one feels transparent - even though others don't really know what we know about something.

[Toadily]

I've thought of that too, but I know in law enforcement they know that when someone is guilty they start lying.  And he
probably didn't want her even close to that part of his life. 

[ethan]

Very interesting topic. My take on "fishing buddies" is just a lie - not that Ennis was preparing some kind of alibi for future trips. Ennis is very protective of his feeling and "fishing buddy" is his instinct to shield his love from anyone. Once fishing buddy is out, Ennis just conveniently used for upcoming meetings with Jack. Also, fishing may be Ennis' hobbit - see all the fishing tools he's got. And that would be the most *convincing* way of telling his wife.

[tpe]

Very interesting topic. My take on "fishing buddies" is just a lie - not that Ennis was preparing some kind of alibi for future trips. Ennis is very protective of his feeling and "fishing buddy" is his instinct to shield his love from anyone. Once fishing buddy is out, Ennis just conveniently used for upcoming meetings with Jack. Also, fishing may be Ennis' hobbit - see all the fishing tools he's got. And that would be the most *convincing* way of telling his wife.

Yes ethan, I do think it was more an indication that Ennis was never willing to share Jack with anyone else.  I don't think he planned things in advance.  He was too thrilled at the possibility of seeing Jack again -- I don't think he had the time or the foresight at that point to plan things out.

Another indication that corraborates this is the GREAT kissing scene.  Ennis and Jack clearly did NOT plan the kiss after the mighty embrace.  To paraphrase Proulx: it was natural and instantaneous (i.e., the lock analogy in the story).  There was no need to plan this out, also.

[kcristob]

es ethanAnother indication that corraborates this is the GREAT kissing scene.  Ennis and Jack clearly did NOT plan the kiss after the mighty embrace.  To paraphrase, Proulx: it was natural and instantaneous.

as the short story says:

and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together 

perfect

[backtobrokeback]

Keep in mind that what we're discussing here represents McMurtry/Ossana's choices in the screenplay.  Proulx's original story presents the arrival of the postcard this way:
 

The fourth summer since Brokeback Mountain came on and in June Ennis had a general delivery letter from Jack Twist, the first sign of life in all that time.

Friend this letter is a long time over due. Hope you get it. Heard you was in Riverton. Im coming thru on the 24th, thought Id stop and buy you a beer Drop me a line if you can, say if your there.

The return address was Childress, Texas. Ennis wrote back, you bet, gave the Riverton address.

  No mention of "fishing buddy at all.  In the book, it seems that Alma has NO prior warning, nor does she intrude on the communication between Ennis and Jack.  The scene continues after the kiss, when he introduces Jack, as in the movie:

The door opened again a few inches and Alma stood in the narrow light.

What could he say? "Alma, this is Jack Twist, Jack, my wife Alma." His chest was heaving. He could smell Jack -- the intensely familiar odor of cigarettes, musky sweat and a faint sweetness like grass, and with it the rushing cold of the mountain. "Alma," he said, "Jack and me ain't seen each other in four years." As if it were a reason. He was glad the light was dim on the landing but did not turn away from her.

"Sure enough," said Alma in a low voice. She had seen what she had seen. Behind her in the room lightning lit the window like a white sheet waving and the baby cried.

Proulx never had him specifically lying *until later*, only offering weak and transparent excuses -  "As if it were a reason. ", or omitting important information.  The idea of 'fishing buddies' may have been McMurtry/Ossana's way of setting up later events and making things clearer about Alma and her suspicions, but there's nothing about prior planning in the book.  Of course, what Ennis was thinking up as he sat there is anyone's guess, and I can guess pretty well.

There was, btw, a BRILLIANT envisioning in the movie version of an equally brilliant little paragraph in the book:

The day was hot and clear in the morning, but by noon the clouds had pushed up out of the west rolling a little sultry air before them. Ennis, wearing his best shirt, white with wide black stripes, didn't know what time Jack would get there and so had taken the day off, paced back and forth, looking down into a street pale with dust.

That, friends, is a deep infatuation, charmingly expressed.

btb

[lowpro]

So when Ennis and Jack are finally reunited after 4 years, the first hint we have of their meeting is the postcard Jack sends to Ennis.  Alma says, "Do you know someone name of Jack?", and Ennis replies, "Maybe.  Why?"  Alma gives him the card and asks if they "cowboyed" together, and Ennis responds, "We was fishing buddies."  I'm wondering now, after 3 viewings and having read the story countless times, if Ennis was already preparing a kind of alibi for the time he would be spending with Jack.  Did he say "fishing buddies" instead of telling her of their time on Brokeback so he would have a reason to get away with Jack?  Was he already planning ahead to their time together--or am I reading too much into this phrase?  It just struck me, since this is the first moment we see in the film when he is not totally honest with Alma (granted, we don't see too many of their interactions before this).

Thoughts?

Thanks, and peace--

Ennis that dirty devil has it all planned out.  When he first receives the postcard from Jack he says he just a fishing buddy.  Then he  has bought all the fishing equipment to support that pretense before Jack ever arrives.  Ennis is away ahead of us.

[stephan]

Very interesting question ! I never thought about it until now.
We do know that Ennis has been keeping a secret about knowing Jack. Jack spoke to his parents about Ennis, Ennis speaks to nobody about Jack. Why ? He doesn't want anyone to ever suspect. So I have to go with the thesis that Ennis is deliberately lying.
However, I can't imagine Ennis waiting for Jack to reappear and preparing the lie in advance. Like he tells Jack in the motel, he has no time for anything except making a living. So the lie "fishing buddy" was made up on the spur of the moment. Perhaps it was something he knew that Alma wasn't interested in. If she found fishing boring, then there were less chances that she'd ask more questions. Stephan

[jesseanne21]

So when Ennis and Jack are finally reunited after 4 years, the first hint we have of their meeting is the postcard Jack sends to Ennis.  Alma says, "Do you know someone name of Jack?", and Ennis replies, "Maybe.  Why?"  Alma gives him the card and asks if they "cowboyed" together, and Ennis responds, "We was fishing buddies."  I'm wondering now, after 3 viewings and having read the story countless times, if Ennis was already preparing a kind of alibi for the time he would be spending with Jack.  Did he say "fishing buddies" instead of telling her of their time on Brokeback so he would have a reason to get away with Jack?  Was he already planning ahead to their time together--or am I reading too much into this phrase?  It just struck me, since this is the first moment we see in the film when he is not totally honest with Alma (granted, we don't see too many of their interactions before this).

Thoughts?

Thanks, and peace--

Ennis was engaged to Alma when he went to work on Brokeback Mountain.  In their almost four years of marraige he obviously never told her anything about Jack.  I don't think he wanted her to ever know that he and Jack were together for a summer on Brokeback Mountain.  BBM was Jack's  and Ennis' special time/place.

In the AP short story, when Ennis introduces Jack to Alma, Ennis tellls her "me and Jack ain't seen each other in four years." 

[KatKat]

I think Ennis feels guilty and he doesn't want Alma to know anything about them, plus he may thing Alma will be suspicious (spelling)if she knows they have spend some time together up on the mountain

[welshwitch]

When they come back from the motel ( and I often wonder where Alma thinks they had been - an all-night bar in Riverton seems entirely unlikely) Ennis picks up the fishing gear he keeps in the closet ( as he keeps Jack). Evidently the fishing thing was in his mind becasue it was something he did anyway and wouldn't arouse Alma's suspicions.

[edgar]

When they come back from the motel ( and I often wonder where Alma thinks they had been - an all-night bar in Riverton seems entirely unlikely) Ennis picks up the fishing gear he keeps in the closet ( as he keeps Jack). Evidently the fishing thing was in his mind becasue it was something he did anyway and wouldn't arouse Alma's suspicions.

Ahhh, welshwitch, perceptive as usual. You've got me thinking now....

If fishing was a passion of Ennis's.... something he did privately, with no one else around.... Something he kept to himself, and didn't talk about with anyone... If fishing was somehting Ennis had told Alma he loved.... Something that he would, by God, spend money they didn't have on.... something he *had* to do....

Maybe that explains why the first lie that popped into Ennis's head was something about fishing.

[shieldmaid]

If fishing was a passion of Ennis's.... something he did privately, with no one else around.... Something he kept to himself, and didn't talk about with anyone... If fishing was somehting Ennis had told Alma he loved.... Something that he would, by God, spend money they didn't have on.... something he *had* to do....

Maybe that explains why the first lie that popped into Ennis's head was something about fishing.

That makes a lot of sense to me, edgar.  It's interesting, too, that "going fishing" is also a euphemism for going off to do your own thing, for playing hooky from life, essentially.  So for Ennis, his time with Jack is like a vacation from his real life--but it's also, paradoxically, the most real life he knows.

[welshwitch]

And all the associations of " fishing" - trying to find out something, as they were trying to find out the truth about themsleves and each other.

Or fishing in the Biblical sense - "fishers of men" - was Jack fishing and Ennis was  what he came up with?

Then again, fishing for the moon is another way of saying trying to do something impossible...

[CherryCake]

Well, if Ennis had that fishing equipment and fishing wouldn't arouse Alma's suspicions, then why DIDN'T Ennis bring home any trouts for Alma to fry up for the girls. He knows how they love fish.  Were Jack and Ennish to busy to do a little fishing, other than trouser fishing,l or was it a case where nothing and no one else mattered to Ennis when Jack blew into town?

[keren_b]

I don't think fishing was one of Ennis's hobbies. hell, he didn't have time for hobbies, working and making a living was about all he got time for. And if he really liked doing that, he would've done it with Jack - they loved riding and they did a lot of that when they were together, right? so why not fishing, if Ennis likes it? But he never put that fishing equipment to use - remember, the price tag was still on it years ofter he'd bought it.

[welshwitch]

In the ss Alma doesn't mention fishing till the Thanksgiving scene, when from her description it's plausible he could have bought his equipment some time after Jack's return to use to cover up the real purpose of their later trips - he couldn't keep on claiming they were going out to drink all night. Alma clearly thinks he knows how to fish - she wondered why he didn't bring fish back after claiming to have caught some.But in the movie he uses the excuse immediately Jack's name is mentioned - the only time he could have bought the stuff if he didn't have it already is between getting Jack's postcard and Jack's arrival, which would have looked pretty odd unless he said he wanted to take up the old hobby he's shared with his buddy.

Another tiny niggle - presumably they're meant to have fished up on BBM - in that river???

[edgar]

Oh, yes... Trout fishing in the mountains is famously good.

As far as not bringing fish home.... (disclaimer: I'm not a big fisherman, though friends and family members are)

Fish don't travel that well. It's a very normal thing to eat the fish you catch right then and there. Depending how far away the mountains were from Riverton, several hours in the back of a truck.... and I don't expect Ennis would have had the lastest in coolers...

That brings me to another (somewhat    ) observation. Since Ennis was so good at coming up with a lie about Jack being a fishing buddy--when it wasn't *really* needed--I don't know why he didn't come up with a good lie at the Thanksgiving from Hell scene. When Alma brings up the pole and the note, Ennis shoulda/coulda said "Well, Jack is wealthy, and he always brought an extra pole much nicer than mine...."
Okay, it's not the perfect alibi, but a lot better than threats of violence and "You don't know nothing about it."

(And no snide comments about "extra pole" either, thank you. 

[keren_b]

I think that at the Thanksgiving scene, when Alma started out with her little speech and Ennis could tell where the wind was blowing, he got so petrified that he couldn't think of any excuse. I imagine his mind just went blank - after all this is the thing he fears the most, to be discovered. he wasn't thinking logically, he couldn't, he just lost it. violence was the only way he knew how to deal with it.

[edgar]

I think that at the Thanksgiving scene, when Alma started out with her little speech and Ennis could tell where the wind was blowing, he got so petrified that he couldn't think of any excuse. I imagine his mind just went blank - after all this is the thing he fears the most, to be discovered. he wasn't thinking logically, he couldn't, he just lost it. violence was the only way he knew how to deal with it.

Yes, exactly. Sad...
He learned a little from Jack through the years... about love, about expressing himself (just a bit).

I want to write this next part in very small letters: maybe he should have learned from Jack to lie a bit better.

[welshwitch]

Ennis rarely lied as it were by commission - "We was fishing buddies" was one of the few examples, if not the only one.He lied by omission, if he lied. Jack on the other hand lied by omission and commission, and throughtour the twenty years, to everyone including Ennis. Ennis didn't lie because he lacked theinventiveness, if you read him one way, or because he's too honest, if you read him the oher. Which is why I think the fishing equipment is part of his Riverton/Alma life.

[TheBoyFromNoWhere]

i think mcmurtry/ossana develop the fishing buddies from the short story.  proulx writes about alma asking ennis on thanksgiving day that 'you still go fishin with that jack twist?' and 'price tag still on it after five years'.

in the screenplay, as well the movie, ennis has the fishing gears in the closet.  i can't figure out why ennis has them.  so ennis gets the box before the reunion.  but ennis may buy a new one to make alma believes that he likes fishing, it can also be possible.  of course, he hasn't gone fishing before... price tag is still on for five years after ennis buys it.  so, i still have no answer for when ennis gets the fishing box.

1963 ennis - alma get married
1967 the reunion
1975 ennis - alma get devorced
1977 thanksgiving - alma mentions about the price tag

however, ennis has never brought fish for alma and the girls.  i think that means ennis has a good time with jack, so he thinks of nothing or no one else.

i have to say that sometimes i feel it doesn't fair for alma and others around them.  it's all about cheating.  if proulx writes this story from alma's view, this must be a very dramatical... very sad story and hate.  but we view this from ennis' so it is about love, relationship and a hard-to-come-out feeling.

i'm sorry to think that way.     honestly, i still love the short story and also the movie.