Topic: Lame Technical Questions: Camp Tender vs. Herder

[Uptown_Gal]

I'm obviously a Town Mouse - not a Country Mouse - completely ignorant about livestock and the like.  At the start of the movie, Joe Aguirre assigns Jack the role of the herder and Ennis the position of camp tender.  Later, the boys change roles.  Normally, do most cowboys alternate the roles of camp tender and herder in order to get a physical break?  I imagine that the latter position is far more demanding; e.g., up @ night, protecting the flock of sheep from coyotes, etc.  The camp tender has the more domestic and seemingly easier role.  It seems that Joe Aguirre assumed that the roles of camp tender and herder would remain fixed throughout the season.  Is that how it is in the real world?  If so, would the camp tender be paid less than the herder?  How long does it normally take sheep to exhaust a pasture before it's necessary to move on?  Days?  Weeks?

Second of all, in the book and in the movie, it details how Aguirre's flock of sheep got mixed up w. the Chilean sheep.  I also notice how Joe Aguirre's supply man, the one who meets Ennis on the bridge w. the mules, is described as a "Basque."  Let's not forget that "Aguirre" is a Hispanic name.  I've never visited Wyoming, so I assumed - falsely perhaps - that it was a relatively homogeneous state, esp. way back in the '60s.  What's the Hispanic population in Wyoming?

Forgive me.  I have weird questions.   I'm a Yuppie.  The movie has piqued my interest in America's cowboy subculture.  I may even go horseback riding and attend a rodeo in the not-so-far future.

[dirtbiker]

Hmm.... good questions.  I can't say for Wyoming, but here in Washington State, far from the Mexican border, we have a lot of migrant workers east of the mountains who are hired for manual jobs in the fields.  They are also out here west of the mountains in urban areas working in the service industry such as restaurants, janitorial, etc.

Anybody know what the "QT" is? As in pitch a pup tent at the QT?

There is an annual gay rodeo here in Washington state (in Enumclaw) which I may go to the next time - maybe I'll find my Jack there

[cybernaut]

QT = Quiet Time.

Also commonly used in the church, especially your nightly QT with God.

[AnitaSmith]

Anybody know what the "QT" is? As in pitch a pup tent at the QT?  There is an annual gay rodeo here in Washington state (in Enumclaw) which I may go to the next time - maybe I'll find my Jack there

I also am a citified person (Northeast) who is totally green when it comes to the ways of the great West.  I have a stupid question regarding the pup tent.  Why would the authorities in Wyoming prohibit the pitching of a pup tent where the sheep grazed?  I don't understand the reason for this.  (Drtbiker, good luck!

[tpe]

Anybody know what the "QT" is? As in pitch a pup tent at the QT?  There is an annual gay rodeo here in Washington state (in Enumclaw) which I may go to the next time - maybe I'll find my Jack there

I also am a citified person (Northeast) who is totally green when it comes to the ways of the great West.  I have a stupid question regarding the pup tent.  Why would the authorities in Wyoming prohibit the pitching of a pup tent where the sheep grazed?  I don't understand the reason for this.  (Drtbiker, good luck!

I'm a city person, too.  But what I know is that there are designated camp sites on Brokeback, so that it would not be lawful to set up camp outside the designated camp sites.  This makes sense, since trash, fires, water supply, and other things can better be collected/monitored/maintained in designated sites for campers.

With respect to the original question, remember that Aguirre was asking something inappropriate here for the herder.  He really did not have the lawful right to have the herder sleep with the sheep, since that would technically be breaking the law (the sheep did not pasture on a designated camp site).  Hence, the herder's job should not have been as difficult as what Jack and Ennis had to go thru.

[Sitaram]

I am close to age 60, and understood the phrase "on the Q.T." having heard it before.  But I never thought about the origin of the expression.  Good question! Here is what a google search reveals:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ont2.htm

According to Robert Hendrickson, in The Facts on File Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins, the first reference is from a British ballad of 1870, which contained the line “Whatever I tell you is on the QT”. It seems to have been just an abbreviated spelling, using the first and last letters of the word quiet, the mild obfuscation also suggesting a meaning for the expression. The Oxford English Dictionary has a first sighting from 1884: “It will be possible to have one spree on the strict q.t.”. Mr Hendrickson points out that it also occurs in a famous London ditty of 1891, sung by Lottie Collins, which also introduced the famous chorus line “Ta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay”:


    A sweet Tuxedo girl you see,
    Queen of swell society,
    Fond of fun as fun can be,
    When it's on the strict Q.T.

[dirtbiker]

Thanks for the elucidation 

[ranchgal]

I keep thinking in my mind, it has something to do with Quotion Tracts--as in a certain Tract of land and the quotioned (amount) of sheep allowed to graze on it.
the govt. has very detailed contracts of grazing rights with regards to how many animals can be allowed on certain acreage tracts  and how much human contact with the land is allowed.
That is part of the reason that he was so cautioning of them about not being caught camping (or making a fire) in the grazing tracts.   

It is not just the pup tent---they don't want any camp making at all, because if one guy pitches a pup tent---the next will be lighting fires, and then comes the litter, and evidence left of humans in the wilderness--and the govt gets touchy about their regulations.

As to the camp tender, he will be paid the same as the herder, and switching is allowed, as long as the job gets done the way the boss wants it done.   He doesn't care who cooks/cleans and packs the supplies as long as someone is always with sheep.   Both jobs are essential to getting the sheep up and back safely.

The grazing of sheep is dependant on the abundance of grass, and the quality of it---thick and lush, it will take some time to graze it down----thin or dry, and they have to move pretty quick.
the problem is with sheep---they graze with their teeth---and will cut and chew the grass down close to the roots--and if left in one place to long, they can completely destroy the natural balance of the habitat.   
IT is the herders job to access the grass and move on a regular basis within the contract acres--so everything is left high enough for good regrowth.
The reasons for some of the old grazing wars were sheep left too long in one place. 
Cattle don't have any top front teeth, and they graze by wrapping their tongues around the graze stems and chopping it off against their bottom teeth---and they leave a lot longer stem above the roots of the plants, so they don't destroy the range quite so fast or completely, unless they are really neglected.

[Sitaram]

I keep thinking in my mind, it has something to do with Quotion Tracts--as in a certain Tract of land and the quotioned (amount) of sheep allowed to graze on it.
the govt. has very detailed contracts of grazing rights with regards to how many animals can be allowed on certain acreage tracts  and how much human contact with the land is allowed.
That is part of the reason that he was so cautioning of them about not being caught camping (or making a fire) in the grazing tracts.   

It is not just the pup tent---they don't want any camp making at all, because if one guy pitches a pup tent---the next will be lighting fires, and then comes the litter, and evidence left of humans in the wilderness--and the govt gets touchy about their regulations.

As to the camp tender, he will be paid the same as the herder, and switching is allowed, as long as the job gets done the way the boss wants it done.   He doesn't care who cooks/cleans and packs the supplies as long as someone is always with sheep.   Both jobs are essential to getting the sheep up and back safely.

The grazing of sheep is dependant on the abundance of grass, and the quality of it---thick and lush, it will take some time to graze it down----thin or dry, and they have to move pretty quick.
the problem is with sheep---they graze with their teeth---and will cut and chew the grass down close to the roots--and if left in one place to long, they can completely destroy the natural balance of the habitat.   
IT is the herders job to access the grass and move on a regular basis within the contract acres--so everything is left high enough for good regrowth.
The reasons for some of the old grazing wars were sheep left too long in one place. 
Cattle don't have any top front teeth, and they graze by wrapping their tongues around the graze stems and chopping it off against their bottom teeth---and they leave a lot longer stem above the roots of the plants, so they don't destroy the range quite so fast or completely, unless they are really neglected.

I am impressed by your analytical skills displayed in your various posts.  You make an interesting point about the difference in impact on the environment made by sheep vs. cattle, based upon their anatomical differences.

What I am about to say next may possibly be a digression from BBM, or it may be pertinent.  I have never been very clever in politics. I have never had a firm grasp of terms like Republican vs. Democrat, or Liberal vs Conservative.  A few years ago, I did a google search on such terms, and learned that, at one point, in certain states, the differences between the Republican and Democratic parties were based on differences between the free range grazers, and those who wanted to protect their farms from the damage of grazing herds.  I would like to come back to this post and develop this thought, but my time is limited at the moment.   Good analytical work!  I want to study your posts further.  Thanks for your contributions.

[rane99]

Wow, I never thought I would be learning so much from here!! YeeeeHaaaaaW!

[cybernaut]

a firm grasp of terms like Republican vs. Democrat, or Liberal vs Conservative. 

Bush said in his State of the Union Speech,

"The Congress hasn't passed the Social Security Bill...."

The Democrats stood up and applaused.  :D

Bush had that grim look - What the hell are you clapping about?

[Sitaram]

a firm grasp of terms like Republican vs. Democrat, or Liberal vs Conservative. 

Bush said in his State of the Union Speech,

"The Congress hasn't passed the Social Security Bill...."

The Democrats stood up and applaused.  :D

Bush had that grim look - What the hell are you clapping about?

The struggle for power between liberals and conservatives greatly affects the quality of lives, (the pursuit of happiness) of gays, and also the freedom of speech of writers like Annie Proulx and producers like Ang Lee, as well as actors like Heath and Jake.

It is my understanding that Annie Proulx was trained as an historian.  I would not be surprised if she spent part of her six months writing these 30 pages, to weave certain political themes into the fabric of this tapestry.

[Rodney]

I'm obviously a Town Mouse - not a Country Mouse - completely ignorant about livestock and the like.  At the start of the movie, Joe Aguirre assigns Jack the role of the herder and Ennis the position of camp tender.  Later, the boys change roles.  Normally, do most cowboys alternate the roles of camp tender and herder in order to get a physical break?  I imagine that the latter position is far more demanding; e.g., up @ night, protecting the flock of sheep from coyotes, etc.  The camp tender has the more domestic and seemingly easier role.  It seems that Joe Aguirre assumed that the roles of camp tender and herder would remain fixed throughout the season.  Is that how it is in the real world?  If so, would the camp tender be paid less than the herder?  How long does it normally take sheep to exhaust a pasture before it's necessary to move on?  Days?  Weeks?

Second of all, in the book and in the movie, it details how Aguirre's flock of sheep got mixed up w. the Chilean sheep.  I also notice how Joe Aguirre's supply man, the one who meets Ennis on the bridge w. the mules, is described as a "Basque."  Let's not forget that "Aguirre" is a Hispanic name.  I've never visited Wyoming, so I assumed - falsely perhaps - that it was a relatively homogeneous state, esp. way back in the '60s.  What's the Hispanic population in Wyoming?

I dont know a whole lot about sheepherding, but I do know a lot of Basques came over from Spain in the last century specifically to tend sheep as they had done in their native country.  Nevada , I know, has areas with many Basques, in some towns there are even Basque restaurants.  Great food, by the way, often served family style.  Also, for example, in the gold country of California, Cornish and Italian miners came over to work the gold mines cause  it was their job back in the old country. California had Chilean gold miners as early as 1850, among others were Chinese, French, so my point is there were lots of foreign people in the West at an early time. So I think Annie Proulx did her homework about these kind of things. 

Forgive me.  I have weird questions.   I'm a Yuppie.  The movie has piqued my interest in America's cowboy subculture.  I may even go horseback riding and attend a rodeo in the not-so-far future.

[Rodney]

  Sorry, Uptown-Gal, got the procedure messed up on where to put your quote- my response got inserted in the middle of your quote.  Starts with"I dont know a whole lot about sheepherding" and ends with"So I think Annie Proulx did her homework about these kinds of things"

[Rod]

the spanish names and I guess intrigued me also....as in Ennis Del Mar?? He didn't seem spanish or look spanish but that seems like a definite Hispanic name? 

[Rodney]

the spanish names and I guess intrigued me also....as in Ennis Del Mar?? He didn't seem spanish or look spanish but that seems like a definite Hispanic name? 

I think Del Mar means" the ocean" or "the sea" in Spanish.  I would guess the name " Ennis" is English. 

[Walford]

I keep thinking in my mind, it has something to do with Quotion Tracts

No, "on the q.t." is a very old, and I THOUGHT well-known slang phrase.
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/o.htm

[Sitaram]

the spanish names and I guess intrigued me also....as in Ennis Del Mar?? He didn't seem spanish or look spanish but that seems like a definite Hispanic name? 

I think Del Mar means" the ocean" or "the sea" in Spanish.  I would guess the name " Ennis" is English. 

Somehow, his name means "An island in the sea". I think Annie Proulx chose the name, thinking along the lines of "no man is an island unto himself", except that Ennis is isolated, like an island in the sea.  Perhaps the sea is the waters of homophobia which surround us.

[Silk]

The camp was on assigned acres by the government on government lands.  They put the camp there as assigned but grazed the sheep on land that was not appropriated for sheep grazing and that is why Jack had to take his pup tent down in the morning so the rangers would not see it.  Doesn't make sense though as they would have seen the sheep and also seen that they had been grazed on land not allowed for sheep grazing.  For that amount of sheep there would also have been 2 other herders or more dogs.

Sheep will destroy pasture ground.  They do eat down even below the ground and pull out the roots.  Cattle tend to move around looking for better grasses and horses are even more picky about what they eat.

We had about a dozen sheep when I was a child and my father would take those sheep and put them in the cattle pasture to eat all the weeds and the tufts of grass that the cattle would not eat.  This was also done in the horse pasture.  We  have only horses and we have to mow the pastures 3 times a year and harrow them 3 times a year.  They are on a 6 acre pasture.

Acquirre (sp) was breaking the law and could have gotten a huge fine and also lost his contract to graze sheep on government land.  This lands and land contracts are held by generations of ranchers and if lost their livlihood is gone too.

Did you know that if a sheep is upended over onto its back it can not roll back over and upright again?  They die if not helped to turn over.  This is adult sheep.  Also if a sheep gets hurt they will not fight to live.  They will give up and die where a horse or a steer will lick it's wounds and heal them.  We only had those sheep for one season.  They had lambs and we would tie rubber bands around their tails and eventually the tail would "dock" itself leaving the short stub end that you see on sheep.  That is right sheep are born with longer tails.

I also wondered why the horses were not tied at night on a line which is hung between two treed or even back then hobbles were used on horses so they would not run off at night but could graze.  I did not see the horses being fed at any time or allowed to fully graze at night.  Maybe they ate beans?  LOL

Sorry to disect this film because I don't like to find flaws as it takes something away from it but when it comes to the livestock and etc. it interests me.

[*Froggy*]

I also wondered why the horses were not tied at night on a line which is hung between two treed or even back then hobbles were used on horses so they would not run off at night but could graze.  I did not see the horses being fed at any time or allowed to fully graze at night.  Maybe they ate beans?  LOL

I noticed that too...then again...we did not see much of them did we..but yeah..we saw them eat many times, do small tasks around the camp, but never feed the horses.

[welshwitch]

Annie Proulx says she checked and Basques/hispanics were used as sheep-herders in the relevant period -I think she also says they sometimes took their whole families with them.I guess sheep-herding was low-statuus as compared with herding cattle? I wondered about the horses too- don't know a thing about them but am terrified of them. Wouldn't they have spooked and run away if they weren;t tied up ( or whatever you do with them)? One was supposed to have a low startle point ( and the events in the tent ought to have triggered that...) And where are the mules? They turn up carrying supplies but I can't see them anywhere else, though actually I doubt if I could tell a mule frome a horse anyway.