Author Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler) (Read 508989 times)

bbm · « **on:** Dec 23, 2005, 07:54 PM »

Overall, I like the movie a lot but at times I felt the movie was a little bit slow. Somehow I felt that the air time for Ennis daughters is not necessary. It won't really change the story too much if those scenes weren't in the movie.

What do you think? Any scene that you don't like?

raughtic · « **Reply #1 on:** Dec 27, 2005, 08:19 PM »

I think the scenes with the daughters are necessary because it shows that Ennis does have something to look forward to. His daughters always loved him, especially Alma Jr., despite him not being around much, and not saying much to them. I think at the end of the movie the only thing we have to cling to, is that Ennis will be able to experience some love with his daughters and that they will bring him some happiness.

raughtic · « **Reply #2 on:** Dec 27, 2005, 08:21 PM »

To answer the questions there aren't really any scenes I don't like, I would prefer there being a few more actually, or at least some of the scenes being longer than they are.

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #3 on:** Dec 28, 2005, 01:04 AM »

Quote from: raughtic on Dec 27, 2005, 08:19 PM

I think the scenes with the daughters are necessary because it shows that Ennis does have something to look forward to. His daughters always loved him, especially Alma Jr., despite him not being around much, and not saying much to them. I think at the end of the movie the only thing we have to cling to, is that Ennis will be able to experience some love with his daughters and that they will bring him some happiness.

I also think the daughters are necessary - If there is one emotional connection for Ennis other than Jack, it would be his daughters.

Also, the growth of daughters makes it easier for the audience to get an idea how much time has passed by. To some extent, Alma Jr. is the time in this movie. Without them, it would have been difficult to cut 20 years of relationship into pieces. Just my two cents.

I love the scene where Ennis and Alma were arguing outside when Elma was leaving for work. After that, Ennis said to the girls -

You girls want push or something --- and the girls innocently says NO.

*Froggy* · « **Reply #4 on:** Dec 28, 2005, 06:54 AM »

I think that we need Ennis' ndaughters...they are missing in the short story...it was easy to add more for the movie...well done to the script writers!

stationbbm · « **Reply #5 on:** Jan 01, 2006, 10:07 PM »

This is easy...I'll move conversation away from the daughters as I agree with earlier comments made about connecting Ennis to family (even despite the tragic relationship with Jack). His daughters provide hope that Ennis will NOT be lonely even after Jack.

Clearly the worst scene/s were those of Jack Twist in Texas. All of the characters, including Lureen's father were so sterotypically Texan...what with bolo ties, large-sized belt buckles, pot belly, big hair, on and on. I live in Texas and was somewhat offended that Ang Lee did not take more time and attention to be less JR Ewing about these scenes. While the story follows with Jack marrying into Texas wealth, I think the purple crush velvet dining room chairs and diamond pinky rings could have been more subtle. Thankfully this was not soooooo distracting as to take away from the depth and spirit of the film. I can only thank the editing room for that.

stationbbm

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #6 on:** Jan 02, 2006, 04:10 AM »

Quote from: stationbbm on Jan 01, 2006, 10:07 PM

This is easy...I'll move conversation away from the daughters as I agree with earlier comments made about connecting Ennis to family (even despite the tragic relationship with Jack). His daughters provide hope that Ennis will NOT be lonely even after Jack.

Clearly the worst scene/s were those of Jack Twist in Texas. All of the characters, including Lureen's father were so sterotypically Texan...what with bolo ties, large-sized belt buckles, pot belly, big hair, on and on. I live in Texas and was somewhat offended that Ang Lee did not take more time and attention to be less JR Ewing about these scenes. While the story follows with Jack marrying into Texas wealth, I think the purple crush velvet dining room chairs and diamond pinky rings could have been more subtle. Thankfully this was not soooooo distracting as to take away from the depth and spirit of the film. I can only thank the editing room for that.

stationbbm

Good point and I agree that stereotypes are really the shortcomings. I can also add the 4th July scene.

CoyotePiper · « **Reply #7 on:** Jan 04, 2006, 08:09 PM »

I didn't like the "yee hawing" that Jack did. It was too corny.

When Ennis shot the Elk , Jack could have just shoved Ennis and said "Phuckin' A" or some such. And the same goes for the clowning when ENnis said at the campfire, "my daddy thought all rodeo cowboys are phuckups"

Do cowboys really yee haw?

stationbbm · « **Reply #8 on:** Jan 04, 2006, 09:12 PM »

Coyote: Let me just affirm to you. I live in the heart of cowboy-dom in Fort Worth, Texas. They DO NOT yee-haw, particularly in the fashion that Mr. Gyllenhaal tried so nobly to imitate but fell desperately short. I concur. His yee-hawing was not at all a realistic reaction. I just wonder how many takes Lee made him go through...and finally shook his head and said, "Whatever" Then again, perhaps Lee doesn't really have much familiarization with how cowboys playfully react....It's the only part of the film that I really do cringe when he does that.

stationbbm

Toadily · « **Reply #9 on:** Jan 04, 2006, 09:17 PM »

It's funny I found that scene the only slightly awkward moment. but oh well,
maybe in the 60's they yee hawed. I dont know...the scene ended well.

Also these guys weren't going to bond over reading New yorker cartoons so maybe
this would have worked for them.

stationbbm · « **Reply #10 on:** Jan 05, 2006, 01:18 AM »

Toadily:

You're a riot. I still think the yee-hawing could have been something a little bit different without changing up the mood of the scene too much. My only criticism is that it just didn't come off too natural for Jake. He could have maybe said something clever or funny and gotten to the same end. Just my two cents.

stationbbm

Apollonos · « **Reply #11 on:** Jan 05, 2006, 05:37 AM »

JR Ewing??? I must've missed something in my first and only viewing, so far. Who in this movie even came close to the evil, manipulative, murderous, calculating bastard that JR was? Jack's father-in-law may have been an ignorant ( I loved the scene when Jack called daddy ignorant! LOL), ill-mannered jackass, but surely he couldn't hold a candle to the malevolent JR!

I may be way too simple-minded about this, but the scene I had the most trouble with was the one of Jack's demise. Even the thought of it still makes me shudder. I can imagine that this was one of the things Annie Proulx was referring to in an interview when she said,

Quote

"While I was working on this story, I was occasionally close to tears. I felt guilty that their lives were so difficult, yet there was nothing I could do about it. It couldn't end any other way."

stationbbm · « **Reply #12 on:** Jan 05, 2006, 05:45 PM »

Apollonos:

My reference to JR Ewing was to only infer that all of the Texas scenes were very stereotypical of the 1970's Texas fervor that went on when JR/Dallas was the rave back then. Big hair, big belt buckles, big belly, lavish cars, big money, on and on ....the scenes in BBM were fraught with this stereotypical Texas big, bold and brash theme...and that's not what Texas really is...I live in Texas and the film stretches this way out of proportion. In no way was I trying to equate the evil, malevolent JR with any character...rather the shallow way they portrayed the Texas theme in the film. That's all.

stationbbm

skallywalla · « **Reply #13 on:** Jan 05, 2006, 10:24 PM »

Hmm, I think the "yee-haw" in the scene where he went nuts pretending to be a rodeo cowboy fit - did you see his exaggerated expression (if only to get Ennis to laugh, aww

) I thought he was taking Ennis' comment about how his daddy thought "all rodeo cowboys was ****ups" and running with it, to show how ridiculous it was (remember his drawn-out line, with a purposeful drawl "waaavin' to the girls in the stands!" ?) and yes, to get Ennis to laugh. (which we see *how many times?* oh yeah, just that once

) and if it came across a little awkward, it was cause he wasn't from Texas, and I thought it seemed natural that it wasn't a perfect, authentic performance.

My least favorite scene, I would have to say, is when Jack's trying to make suggestions that might make Ennis happier and one of them is moving to a different state, "what about Texas?" I always cringe when I hear that cause it's so blatant and so desperate and you feel so sorry for him, especially considering Ennis' somewhat callous reaction (yeah, I know they know how to push each other's buttons, but still...!)

I also don't like it when Ennis starts punching that guy in the truck who almost hits him after Alma has outed him at Thanksgiving. I feel horrible for him and understand why he does it, but it makes me cringe, too, cause I don't want to see him beating up innocent people. :-[

Toadily · « **Reply #14 on:** Jan 05, 2006, 10:41 PM »

Quote from: skallywalla on Jan 05, 2006, 10:24 PM

Hmm, I think the "yee-haw" in the scene where he went nuts pretending to be a rodeo cowboy fit - did you see his exaggerated expression (if only to get Ennis to laugh, aww ) I thought he was taking Ennis' comment about how his daddy thought "all rodeo cowboys was ****ups" and running with it, to show how ridiculous it was (remember his drawn-out line, with a purposeful drawl "waaavin' to the girls in the stands!" ?) and yes, to get Ennis to laugh. (which we see *how many times?* oh yeah, just that once ) and if it came across a little awkward, it was cause he wasn't from Texas, and I thought it seemed natural that it wasn't a perfect, authentic performance.

My least favorite scene, I would have to say, is when Jack's trying to make suggestions that might make Ennis happier and one of them is moving to a different state, "what about Texas?" I always cringe when I hear that cause it's so blatant and so desperate and you feel so sorry for him, especially considering Ennis' somewhat callous reaction (yeah, I know they know how to push each other's buttons, but still...!)

I also don't like it when Ennis starts punching that guy in the truck who almost hits him after Alma has outed him at Thanksgiving. I feel horrible for him and understand why he does it, but it makes me cringe, too, cause I don't want to see him beating up innocent people. :-[

I have a hard time with the "why not Texas" move, scene too, I know Ennis could have been nicer about it the look of hurt on
Jack's face is so obvious. Ugh.

bnjmn3 · « **Reply #15 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 10:42 PM »

Briefly, more people in Texas and throughout the South sound/act like the stereotypes we saw in the Texas scenes and in the Fireworks scene..there were only two "bad guys" anyway in the Fireworks scene. The scenes with the daughters I think allow Ennis to reclaim the loving parental/familial relationship he missed with his parents and apparently brother and sister. Alma, Jr. is certainly the later version of her Mom in Ennis's. As for Jack...from the showing off on the horse, to the yeehawing and the physical over reaction to Ennis killing the Elk-Jack is trying to pull Ennis out..Jack is as desperate for a connection as Ennis is..where Ennis shuts down, Jack takes the opposite approach and reaches out too far...chatting up the rodeo clown in the bar, the Mexico thing, too. I certainly am not complaining about others who have problems with certain scenes though. Isnt it great to have such a wonderful film to discuss?

Toadily · « **Reply #16 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 10:44 PM »

What did the Jack trying to buy the clown a drink scene mean? Was he hitting on him or just trying to
get known or something? I wasn't clear on that.

I did notice in contrast to all his outgoing actions, Jack didn't approach Lureen.

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #17 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 10:48 PM »

Quote from: bnjmn3 on Jan 06, 2006, 10:42 PM

Briefly, more people in Texas and throughout the South sound/act like the stereotypes we saw in the Texas scenes and in the Fireworks scene..there were only two "bad guys" anyway in the Fireworks scene. The scenes with the daughters I think allow Ennis to reclaim the loving parental/familial relationship he missed with his parents and apparently brother and sister. Alma, Jr. is certainly the later version of her Mom in Ennis's. As for Jack...from the showing off on the horse, to the yeehawing and the physical over reaction to Ennis killing the Elk-Jack is trying to pull Ennis out..Jack is as desperate for a connection as Ennis is..where Ennis shuts down, Jack takes the opposite approach and reaches out too far...chatting up the rodeo clown in the bar, the Mexico thing, too. I certainly am not complaining about others who have problems with certain scenes though. Isnt it great to have such a wonderful film to discuss?

Great observation, bnjmn3 and welcome! I am also not complaining and this movie definitely is worth discussing.

Apollonos · « **Reply #18 on:** Jan 07, 2006, 06:47 AM »

Quote

Apollonos:

My reference to JR Ewing was to only infer that all of the Texas scenes were very stereotypical of the 1970's Texas fervor that went on when JR/Dallas was the rave back then. Big hair, big belt buckles, big belly, lavish cars, big money, on and on ....the scenes in BBM were fraught with this stereotypical Texas big, bold and brash theme...and that's not what Texas really is...I live in Texas and the film stretches this way out of proportion. In no way was I trying to equate the evil, malevolent JR with any character...rather the shallow way they portrayed the Texas theme in the film. That's all.

stationbbm-

Okay. I missed the fact that they carried the "over the top" Texas look all the way through the movie. I wonder if they did that deliberately, for some reason, or if it was just an oversight.

*Froggy* · « **Reply #19 on:** Jan 07, 2006, 05:45 PM »

I did not like the fireworks scene...i cannot explain why, it just made me uncomfortable!

chameau · « **Reply #20 on:** Jan 07, 2006, 06:40 PM »

Well Ennis is obviously very frustrated and when he is, the only way he could go over his frustration is violence, there are some more scenes about this. He has very limiteds speaking skills but a lot of guts. I am not saying he is right... he is kind of under educated. I love him like he his. Don't we all? Oh! Heath! I wish you the Golden Globe and the Oscar!

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #21 on:** Jan 07, 2006, 09:30 PM »

Quote from: chameau on Jan 07, 2006, 06:40 PM

Well Ennis is obviously very frustrated and when he is, the only way he could go over his frustration is violence, there are some more scenes about this. He has very limiteds speaking skills but a lot of guts. I am not saying he is right... he is kind of under educated. I love him like he his. Don't we all? Oh! Heath! I wish you the Golden Globe and the Oscar!

Speaking of Ennis's violence, I really got uncomfortable about his *abuse* toward Alma after 4th viewing. I found it disturbing to watch in the scene when Alma confronted Ennis about fishing trip. My heart was just pounding so fast. As much as I cherish the romance between Ennis and Jack, Ennis is sexiest to me and I really feel sorry about Alma.

chameau · « **Reply #22 on:** Jan 07, 2006, 09:41 PM »

Agree with you. He is so MUCH frustrated about his longings for Jack, he has nothing else but violence as an exhaust.. Poor Alma... She really loved her Ennis but got also very frustrated, don't forget, these are people with almost no education, no words... not to mention Ennis drinking... There is a lot of drinking in this movie, rivers of beer and whiskey. That was more obvious in Annie's novel, for example the motel room scene, smell of cigarette smoke, sweat, sperm and whiskey. Drinking leads often to violence... or accidental sex? Well we start over to the beginning of the story then.

Apollonos · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 08, 2006, 05:01 AM »

Quote

Speaking of Ennis's violence, I really got uncomfortable about his *abuse* toward Alma after 4th viewing. I found it disturbing to watch in the scene when Alma confronted Ennis about fishing trip. My heart was just pounding so fast. As much as I cherish the romance between Ennis and Jack, Ennis is sexiest to me and I really feel sorry about Alma.

I think Ennis' reaction in that scene was caused by fear. It seemed to me that Ennis could never forget the memory of those old cowboys that were murdered for being gay. Seeing such a terrible sight at the tender age of nine scarred Ennis for life. That fear was what kept him from buying a ranch with Jack, and I think that when Alma outed him, it brought that memory to the surface, and Ennis was terrified. He never had a large repertoire of reactions to stress to begin with, and violence was probably the one that came easiest. I don't think that scene could have turned out any other way.

chameau · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 08, 2006, 09:14 PM »

After seeing it a second time I guess Apollonos is just right. There is no longer a secret and Ennis might be scared to death to react with such violence. Alma is pregnant and Ennis is about to hit her... This is one of the scene I wathed the more carefully on this second viewing. That was rough but damned good acting!

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 08, 2006, 11:08 PM »

Quote from: chameau on Jan 08, 2006, 09:14 PM

After seeing it a second time I guess Apollonos is just right. There is no longer a secret and Ennis might be scared to death to react with such violence. Alma is pregnant and Ennis is about to hit her... This is one of the scene I wathed the more carefully on this second viewing. That was rough but damned good acting!

It is definitely excellent acting and Michelle Williams - what can I say? She was great. The more I see the movie, the harder for me to digest that scene.

And yes, Apollonos had a very good explanation. Thanks!

Toadily · « **Reply #26 on:** Jan 09, 2006, 03:05 PM »

On later viewings I don't lilke the way Ennis treats Alma. I mean he has the odacity to say
"once burned" to her about the divorce when he said "if you don't want my kids I would
be happy to leave you alone" and all she said was she'd have them if they could be supported.
I mean she deserved to be loved, and at least I would hope he would understand that.

And even though we love this scene, and I hope I am not on sacred ground here, but kissing Jack right in eye shot of her like that was...well sort of a dig in a way.

Apollonos · « **Reply #27 on:** Jan 10, 2006, 05:33 AM »

Quote

On later viewings I don't lilke the way Ennis treats Alma. I mean he has the audacity to say
"once burned" to her about the divorce when he said "if you don't want my kids I would
be happy to leave you alone" and all she said was she'd have them if they could be supported.
I mean she deserved to be loved, and at least I would hope he would understand that.

And even though we love this scene, and I hope I am not on sacred ground here, but kissing Jack right in eye shot of her like that was...well sort of a dig in a way.

Sigh. I think this is one of the tragedies that the movie is trying to get across. I agree with you that Alma deserved to be loved, just as Jack and Ennis deserved to be together and live happily ever after; but society put all of these people into a terrible, no-win situation (or, dare I say it, a God-damned bitch of an unsatisfactory situation!). Jack and Ennis both felt forced by society to maintain the appearance of a traditional, heterosexual marriage. The only alternative was to risk being brutally murdered, as Ennis was forced to witness at a young age.

I also agree that the kissing scene right out in plain sight was not very bright, but keep in mind that Annie Proulx described Jack and Ennis as "uneducated, inarticulate boys", not Harvard grads! Considering that they hadn't seen each other for some time, their reaction should have come as no surprise. They weren't thinking with their heads (not the big ones, anyway).

As for the bedroom scene when Ennis and Alma were talking about kids, I think by that time, both of them were feeling frustrated and unhappy with the whole situation; but there was just no easy way out, and there lies the rub. I think their poverty and desperation led both of them to say unkind things to each other.

It's no wonder that Annie Proulx said of the story:

Quote

"While I was working on this story, I was occasionally close to tears. I felt guilty that their lives were so difficult, yet there was nothing I could do about it. It couldn't end any other way."

That's why BBM is taking the country, and the world, by storm: it's a classic tragedy, with the star-crossed lovers doomed from the start by forces beyond their control. The Bard, himself, would have been proud to pen such a story! "For never was a tale of more woe ...."

daveya26 · « **Reply #28 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 08:41 PM »

Quote from: Toadily on Jan 06, 2006, 10:44 PM

What did the Jack trying to buy the clown a drink scene mean? Was he hitting on him or just trying to
get known or something? I wasn't clear on that.

I did notice in contrast to all his outgoing actions, Jack didn't approach Lureen.

Hi

I think Jack was hitting on the clown and the clown was aware of this - you subsequently see the clown tell his friends what had happened, this could so easily have led to Jack being beaten up. I think this scene is there to denote an extra element of risk-taking to Jack's need for male company.

Toadily · « **Reply #29 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 08:43 PM »

Quote from: daveya26 on Jan 14, 2006, 08:41 PM

Quote from: Toadily on Jan 06, 2006, 10:44 PM
What did the Jack trying to buy the clown a drink scene mean? Was he hitting on him or just trying to
get known or something? I wasn't clear on that.

I did notice in contrast to all his outgoing actions, Jack didn't approach Lureen.

Hi

I think Jack was hitting on the clown and the clown was aware of this - you subsequently see the clown tell his friends what had happened, this could so easily have led to Jack being beaten up. I think this scene is there to denote an extra element of risk-taking to Jack's need for male company.

I totally agree with you, there is a thread here about this. that scene had significance, Jack's risk taking the potential danger in it.
Then soon after he meets Lureen so it explains more why he would jump into that.