Topic: scenes of observation

[tpe]

Some of the previous posts show that certain lines in the movie are difficult to understand.  Using subtitles from the DVD helped me a lot!  (However, some of the subtitles were most definitely incorrect--ie., middle-aged Jack mentioned Childress, and the subtitle showed Rutters!?) 

Could NOT understand what Jack said to Ennis after he shot the elk.  The subtitle clarified this, and I paraphrase: "Better git to it!  Don't want Game and Fish to catch us with no elk!"

I observed this on another thread:  Ennis is shirtless and about to "warsh everything (he) can reach."  On a pile of logs in the background are Ennis' coat, shirt, and a clean pair of jeans!  Yea!  Love the way Jack and Ennis bathed, washed clothes and shaved daily--to make themselves even more tantalizing!

You know, I also had to find recourse to subtitles and the screeplay for that line in the Elk scene.  I must admit that even today, I always have trouble understanding Jack's statement.     We are used to referring to Ennis's dialogue as garbled and hard to understand, but I think Jack's statement in this scene tops them all, or should be pretty high up there...

[aintfoolin]

I hear " we better git"" don't want fish and game ta catch you with no elk" Jack's joking way of telling Ennis if they got caught, it's Ennis's elk! Picture it being Jack's idea to nab an elk since he wanted a little something to go along with beans! . Ennis, who would stick to work principle by not eatin the sheep, had no problem shootin an elk for Jack...against the law. Could it be?   Ennis had a little rebel in him...hee, hee.

 Smitten

Ennis ALWAYS gives the whiskey bottle a little shake before he takes a drink...even when he's upset in the bear scene.

[jackster]

. . . Ennis ALWAYS gives the whiskey bottle a little shake before he takes a drink...even when he's upset in the bear scene.

Aintfoolin' - I noticed this too, long ago, does it from the bear scene all the way through to the last campfire with the bottle of Old Rose. Always wondered if this was just a little quirk of Heath's or if it was something he did on purpose, carrying it through all the shooting like he did. Guess I like to believe the latter, he was so dedicated and true in his character portrayal. I feel he thought up this little habit himself, maybe he'd noticed some friend or family member do this, and he decided to use it as a way to show character continuity, and Ennis's unchanging structure, over the twenty year period. JMHO

[lancecowboy]

gee whiz, you guys are too much for me.

I never noticed the little things like that. I will have to watch for it, that little shake of the bottle. 

Thanks atalley, jackster. 

[aintfoolin]

Aintfoolin' - I noticed this too, long ago, does it from the bear scene all the way through to the last campfire with the bottle of Old Rose. Always wondered if this was just a little quirk of Heath's or if it was something he did on purpose, carrying it through all the shooting like he did. Guess I like to believe the latter, he was so dedicated and true in his character portrayal. I feel he thought up this little habit himself, maybe he'd noticed some friend or family member do this, and he decided to use it as a way to show character continuity, and Ennis's unchanging structure, over the twenty year period. JMHO

I Jackster,
t seemed like something that was just natural for him to do . A habit. I remember my dad doing it with his whiskey bottle. In the bear scene it looked like he was'nt even aware he was doing it. Just like some people "shake down" a new pack of smokes. Some do, some don't.

[tpe]

We sometimes swirl a glass of beer or alchohol, and I think this detail is an attempt to mirror this very action that we see so many times in bars and public places...

[rdx]

This has been discussed in this topic before..

Ennis wrote his famous line "You bet." on his first postcard to Jack.

In my country on the national TV the line was translated with some artistic freedom. Putting it back to English it says "I'm here." or "I'm to be found here."

It's not a literal translation but I think it really reflects Ennis' eagerness to meet Jack. Ennis wants Jack to find him (again).

[aintfoolin]

Ennis left the window to Jack's room open when he left Lightning Flat. I'm sure there some kind of symbolism here? or maybe he simply forgot to close it in light of the emotional overload when he found the shirts.

[rimasworld]

Ennis left the window to Jack's room open when he left Lightning Flat. I'm sure there some kind of symbolism here? or maybe he simply forgot to close it in light of the emotional overload when he found the shirts.

And also the closet door was opened already (I'm sure by Jack's mother) If she hadn't done that, Ennis might not have even looked in there.

[tpe]

Ennis left the window to Jack's room open when he left Lightning Flat. I'm sure there some kind of symbolism here? or maybe he simply forgot to close it in light of the emotional overload when he found the shirts.

I also felt that there was some symbolism to this -- intended or unintended.  He opened the window to let the air in that he can breathe better.  To leave it that way, one has the sense that someone still inhabits the empty room.

[jackster]

And also the closet door was opened already (I'm sure by Jack's mother) If she hadn't done that, Ennis might not have even looked in there.

Until you mentioned this rimasworld I'd never focused on the fact that the closet door was already open. In the SS the closet has only a "faded cretonne curtain on a string closing it off from the rest of the room" - you're right, it seems Mrs. Twist would have had to left it open for a purpose.
Regarding the window, again the SS says the room was "tiny and hot" so I guess opening the window would be important, but in a more mystical view it has been pointed out that maybe Ennis left the window open so that Jack's spirit could escape and follow him (and the shirts) home. To me this is reinforced by the final view we get of Ennis leaving the house, he looks back and up at Jack's open window. Almost as one would look at a dog to try and coax it to follow you.

[myprivatejack]

I also felt that there was some symbolism to this -- intended or unintended.  He opened the window to let the air in that he can breathe better.  To leave it that way, one has the sense that someone still inhabits the empty room.

Until you mentioned this rimasworld I'd never focused on the fact that the closet door was already open. In the SS the closet has only a "faded cretonne curtain on a string closing it off from the rest of the room" - you're right, it seems Mrs. Twist would have had to left it open for a purpose.
Regarding the window, again the SS says the room was "tiny and hot" so I guess opening the window would be important, but in a more mystical view it has been pointed out that maybe Ennis left the window open so that Jack's spirit could escape and follow him (and the shirts) home. To me this is reinforced by the final view we get of Ennis leaving the house, he looks back and up at Jack's open window. Almost as one would look at a dog to try and it to follow you.

I haven't either realised the fact that the closet door was already opened.I agree with Tpe in that Ennis was simply too overcomed by emotion and needed some fresh air to breath better;also because,maybe,he could take a look to the environments of Twists home,including the little cemetery that was going to be Jack's home from then onwards... But I agree with Jackster in that it could mean a way to let Jack's spirit go with him somehow(or maybe let this spirit enter to the room?...).However,I think that the fact that he looks at Jack's window when leaving is only Ennis wish to take with him the last look to what had been his lover shelter,as a way to tell him goodbye.

[aintfoolin]

Until you mentioned this rimasworld I'd never focused on the fact that the closet door was already open. In the SS the closet has only a "faded cretonne curtain on a string closing it off from the rest of the room" - you're right, it seems Mrs. Twist would have had to left it open for a purpose.
Regarding the window, again the SS says the room was "tiny and hot" so I guess opening the window would be important, but in a more mystical view it has been pointed out that maybe Ennis left the window open so that Jack's spirit could escape and follow him (and the shirts) home. To me this is reinforced by the final view we get of Ennis leaving the house, he looks back and up at Jack's open window. Almost as one would look at a dog to try and coax it to follow you.

 I also noticed that Ennis looked back at the window as I watched the scene the other day. As if he expected to see Jack looking out. As if he sensed Jack's spirit while he held the shirts firmly in his grasp.. ( thanks Jackster)  It's as though he wanted Jack to know he was there, he had finally came to LF for him.
Somehow, I am reminded of that song by George Strait--I'm Carrying Your Love with Me? Thanks

[jackster]

. . . . It's as though he wanted Jack to know he was there, he had finally came to LF for him. . .

Don't forget Jack ashes (at least half of 'em) were there, somewhere, though it's not clear where.

[aintfoolin]

Don't forget Jack ashes (at least half of 'em) were there, somewhere, though it's not clear where.

Yeah, who knows where the old man kept them? He said " and he's goin in it" referring to the family cemetary. Jack was not yet buried after how much time?

[rimasworld]

Alma & her purse
I'm wondering why after seeing Ennis & Jack kissing she picks up her purse and kind of fumbles around in it and then slings it over her shoulder as if getting ready to go out some where? I know she asked Ennis about cigs but maybe she had plans to go with them wherever that might be?

[myprivatejack]

Alma & her purse
I'm wondering why after seeing Ennis & Jack kissing she picks up her purse and kind of fumbles around in it and then slings it over her shoulder as if getting ready to go out some where? I know she asked Ennis about cigs but maybe she had plans to go with them wherever that might be?

I have always thought that maybe she wanted to pretend she was doing her normal life,without having realised what had happenned in the stairs,and that included going out for shopping or whatever.And in this "whatever",of course,we can include the wish of going with them,as a way of "spying" them and knowing for sure what "weapons" she could fight with.The same than when she asks Ennis for cigarettes,maybe as a way of obliging them -or at least,Jack-to stay home during some minutes while Ennis goes shopping.But also we can impute it to her state of mind after having seen what she had seen...How can we know what is passing along a woman's mind,when she had seen that her husband has a secret lover who,moreover,is another man?...

[jackster]

I have always thought that maybe she wanted to pretend she was doing her normal life . . .

I concur exactly with your thoughts MPJ. And as an interesting aside, it has been said that when filming her scene Michelle, who was then pretty involved with Heath, ask Heath and Jake to stand off screen and "make believe" they were making-out  so that she would be able to rightly express the feeling she might have felt in this circumstance. Very convincing in all regards I'd say.

[myprivatejack]

I concur exactly with your thoughts MPJ. And as an interesting aside, it has been said that when filming her scene Michelle, who was then pretty involved with Heath, ask Heath and Jake to stand off screen and "make believe" they were making-out  so that she would be able to rightly express the feeling she might have felt in this circumstance. Very convincing in all regards I'd say.

Yes,I also knew this anecdote...Even if I read that she asked them for kissing stronger to be able to feel this jeaulousy since she was in love with Heath,as Alma was with Ennis.A petition that,by the way,Ang Lee also told to them,what makes me think that they ended very,very kissed and touched...

[mimi]

This is a great idea! Thankyou so much!  

I thought it was worth noting how the tent they sleep in whenever Ennis and Jack go camping becomes more modern each time, similar to the logs to folding chairs pogression, as mentioned  

Also, when I first saw Brokeback I got the impression that Ennis was in a way more collected and more emotionally stable than Jack, which sounds so incorrect but it was just a first impression  
The I started to notice that although Jack was wild and crazy and an emotional rollercoaster, he was always comforting Ennis. It was always Jack who was reassuring the incredibly insecure Ennis. nd the funny thing was that whenever  herd Jack whisper "It's okay, you're alright, etc." to Ennis, I felt as though he was comforting me. it was like he was that angel's voice telling me that everything will be okay in a wrld we both know is burning to the ground and breaking at the seams.

thanks for listening, although i know i tend to ramble...

[rimasworld]

This is a great idea! Thankyou so much!  

I thought it was worth noting how the tent they sleep in whenever Ennis and Jack go camping becomes more modern each time, similar to the logs to folding chairs pogression, as mentioned  

Also, when I first saw Brokeback I got the impression that Ennis was in a way more collected and more emotionally stable than Jack, which sounds so incorrect but it was just a first impression  
The I started to notice that although Jack was wild and crazy and an emotional rollercoaster, he was always comforting Ennis. It was always Jack who was reassuring the incredibly insecure Ennis. nd the funny thing was that whenever  herd Jack whisper "It's okay, you're alright, etc." to Ennis, I felt as though he was comforting me. it was like he was that angel's voice telling me that everything will be okay in a wrld we both know is burning to the ground and breaking at the seams.

thanks for listening, although i know i tend to ramble...

Yes mimi I agree, although Ennis was quiet it was like that old saying Still Waters Run Deep. I think he was so full of emotions that he kept bottled inside of himself but like a loose cannon when it got to be too much for him. I think he was a lot more emotional than Jack, we see him cry and tear up a lot in the film. He also lets his anger out with his fists a few times including pounding the wall when he's so overcome with parting with Jack the first time. And when Alma confronts him in the kitchen many years later he almost loses it and punches her but I think her screaming for Monroe caused Ennis to run out. That was a very emotional scene and Heath & Michelle were excellent in it. Anyway I guess I'm rambling too   but Ennis was so complex and every time I watch him there seems like more to figure out.

[rdx]

Yup, once again some engineerish observations of mine...

The screenplay & the film have two scenes on the Big Horn Mountains in 1969: the spoken lines are more or less inaudible in the film (at least to my 'waxed' non-native-speaker ears.. ).

Ennis arriving to the campsite:
(Jack:  You're late.)                                                    
Ennis:  Look what I brought?                                  
Jack:    Beans.
Ennis:  Gonna fix 'em just the way I used to.

Riding:
Jack:    I wish we'd jump a coyote. I'd love to rope a coyote.
Ennis:  I doubt I'll live to see that miracle....

These lines are from the book "Story to Screenplay"; please, feel free to revise them. Jack's first line is not in the book.

These spoken lines are 'restored' in some of the European dubbings/subtitlings: Italy, Germany and Spain. In Italian and Spanish they are audible as any other dubbed lines but in German the subtitles are the only 'clue', at least for the riding part.

Some visual proof:

Italian:

e

anche


German:

und

daß

auch


The last two pictures are with the hearing impaired / deaf and hard of hearing subtitles: the normal subtitles show nothing.

The French version 'restores' only some words (as far as I can hear) as do the English/French language subtitles on different DVD/BD's.

Vorrei vedere!  
 

[lancecowboy]

  rdx that's an amazing feat of engineering to reconstruct 'em two scenes from three different languages and subtitles.

That's the kind of friendly banter that reminds me of the tent that don't look right, and the harmonica that scares away the sheep. Ennis sure know more than a few good come-back lines for someone who don't say more than a few words a year.   amigo  

[rdx]

rdx that's an amazing feat of engineering to reconstruct 'em two scenes from three different languages and subtitles.

Thank you LC  It has always 'bothered' me what they were saying in these scenes: I could hear something but nothing comprehensible (to me).

And the 'madness' continues...

Here is the Spanish 'proof':


,

,

,

,

y


Jack's line "I wish we'd jump a coyote" seems to be missing here and in Italian and German, too, but sometimes/quite often the dubbed lines are are a bit 'wider' than the transliteration, eg. "Voy a hacerlas como antes tiempos" or something like that...

¡Rey de la carretera! 
¿Señor?

[lancecowboy]

I hope your madness subsides.  It must have taken a lot of play/replay to get 'em lines down.

We all have our own way with PBS. Yours is certainly admirable. I wish I have your facility with languages. 

Interesting translation of "King of the Road", I wonder if there is any good translation of that phrase, being poetic and from a song.

[rdx]

I hope your madness subsides.   It must have taken a lot of play/replay to get 'em lines down.

Yup, it does.. Well, it took one or two trials: the 'capture frame' button is so useful; no teletyping here...

Interesting translation of "King of the Road", I wonder if there is any good translation of that phrase, being poetic and from a song.

Nuestros amigos que hablan castellano / español, por favor  


One more 'madness':  

in this scene (just before the log/plank bridge and Ennis's "Tent don't look right") there are some spoken lines; Jack says "..they're here.." or sumthin' like that.

Any idea?

[WildCatIsle]

Nuestros amigos que hablan castellano / español, por favor  

"King of the road"  "Rey de la carretera" Very good translation, Jack sings this when he goes to meet with Enis after the divorce, he feels the/el Rey de la carretera

[rdx]

Yup, some observation "once in a while"..

It has been bothering me a little bit since the first couple of viewings: what is Lashawn exactly saying 'about the rhythm' in this scene?

Three different versions of subtitles (Australia, Germany and USA):


My 'waxed' non-native-speaker ears hear: "They've got a smidgen of rhythm between them." Please, feel free to revise me & my ears. Texan dialect ain't my expertise..

In my opinion this "they've got" makes actually sense: the rhythm is certainly between the husbands, no doubt of that.

[lancecowboy]

  rdx...that's funny. True enough. They sure got more than a smidgen of rhythm between them.   Though Ennis wouldn't appreciate that.   "All that rhythm can get you killed, Jack." Sure enough, it was the tire iron. 

[myprivatejack]

rdx...that's funny. True enough. They sure got more than a smidgen of rhythm between them.   Though Ennis wouldn't appreciate that.   "All that rhythm can get you killed, Jack." Sure enough, it was the tire iron. 

  Very good ¡ Thanks,rdx.Yes,it's sure that "the husbands" got an enourmous sense of rhythm...of a concrete rhythm,at least ¡