Topic: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers

[gjz24]

Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack first encunter?

[Kindred]

I think it symbolizes:

1.  The loss of Ennis' innocence as represented by the lamb.

2.  The concequences of Ennis' actions, ie, his love for Jack resulted in the death of something that he was to care for, perhaps further reinforcing his fears.

[Sitaram]

Wow, I just realized, from a PBS educational documentary, that in prisons, a sexual predator is called a "wolf".

The wolf killed the sheep.  The dog is standing guard.  The wolf that was killed had "balls the size of apples."   A wolf and a dog are similar (canines) yes disimilar (enemy/friend, unlawful/lawful, thief/servant).  Gay and straight sex is similar yet dissimilar, along the same criteria, in the eyes of society.

Some 15 years ago, or more, I watched a 60-minutes/20-20 (cant remember which) type expose, of gay men soliciting male prostitutes, filmed under cover.

The term for the male prostitute was "a chicken", which is not a sheep, admittedly, but it is this same imagery which fits in with wolves as predators.

Criminals in the street, seeking drug money, refer to their victims as "prey".

Yet, at the 4th of July fireworks display, the two "Hells angels" were certainly predatory heterosexuals.

I vividly remember, in the PBS documentary on prison "wolves", and interview with one sexual predator, who had a pattern of beating heterosexual prisoners into submission, until they would perform upon him.  He described what he did to one fellow prisoner, who finally cried, but in the end, broken, performed as the wolf wished.   The "wolf" explained that all of his childhood was miserable. He never received any love, or birthday parties, or presents, so, therefore, why should anyone else be happy or have it easy.


All this talk of images of death reminds me of Thomas Mann's Death in Venice

[tpe]

Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack fist encunter?

Interesting that you ask this!

I actually call this scene the 'ET IN ARCADIA EGO' scene, as it is supposed to be a prefigurement of what is to come.  It is probably the strongest classical allusion in the entire film.

Recall that the context of ET IN ARCADIA EGO is the personification of DEATH reminding the Arcadian shepherds that he is also present in Arcadia.  The translation is of course: AND I (i.e., Death) AM ALSO IN ARCADIA.  The phrase is therefore a MEMENTO MORI equivalent to 'Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.'

With this background, I immediately interpreted the dead sheep scene in the movie as a reminder that death is not far off, even in the midst of love.  This scene is introduced precisely at Ennis' most vulnerable point: right after he had just had sex with Jack for the first time.  The conflicting emotions you see in Ledger's face in this scene projects the confusion and guilt in Ennis at this critical stage of the stay at Brokeback Mountain.

Lastly, observe that the music that accompanies this scene is the DEATH music that you hear only after Jack had died.  This is the music played when Ennis sees the returned postcard with DECEASED stamped on it.  It is also the music played when Ennis discovers the 2 shirts during his visit to Jack's parents.  It points us back to the 'vision of dead sheep' during that first summer on Brokeback Mountain, when Ennis should have realized that life is temporary and impermanent, and he should have 'seized the day'.  Ennis did not heed this MEMENTO MORI.  Had he seen its significance, he would have loved Jack more fully, knowing well that life is nothing but a 'floating bridge of dreams.'

CARPE DIEM.

[stationbbm]

TPE:

You offer amazing insight into what I thought was simply a cause and effect whereby Ennis and Jack's actions resulted in what Aguirre didn't want to happen...the wolves getting to the sheep.  All of you who have this depth of literary talent knew immediately what Mr. Lee was trying to create.  Grateful for the lesson in how to dig deeper into what is being captured.  I'm going to try and see this film for the 3rd time this weekend and so this should help me to pick up some of these symbolic nuances that escaped me the first two times.

BTW, (I know this probably fits into another thread), but did anyone see Gyllenhaal's interview with Leno (replayed again last night)??  I still think he was a little on edge with Leno and didn't spend nearly enough time promoting the film.  Thank God for the Golden Globes which put much more momentum behind this classic!

stationbbm

[tpe]

Thanks stationbbm for the kind words.  I think we should all thank gjz24 for the intuition that there is something more to this scene.

Yes, I was actually quite irritated with Leno for spending half the time discussing the cooking channel (although I do love Italian cooking!)  Leno probably thought that he was doing Gyllenhaal a service by making him feel comfortable first before tackling the main issue.

I do love one thing that Gyllenhaal said: he said [let me paraphrase] that 'Brokeback Mountain' was the most beautiful love story he had ever read.  I was astonished and so happy to hear this coming directly from him.

I think Leno learned a bit from this interview and he was vastly better when it was Ledger's turn to be the guest.

[Toadily]

In the short story Proulx says, that after their starting having sex they
knew how the summer would go, "sheep be damned"- so we can read what you want into that.  I did think in the movie they tried
to say they did try to do their jobs, but it was "nature" that intruded, like with the hail storm etc (she also has hail in the background
during the motel scene) was when Ennis stayed and the sheep really got mixed up, but note Ennis holds up a hugh piece of ice like saying "I could get hurt audience, I can't go up there, it isn't JUST that I want to be with Jack"

[jakeofrome]

I agree with it being the stronger classycal metaphor of the movie. I immediately connected it to the death of Jack - as the ultimate consequence of what happened the night before. Ang really went "Greek Tragedy" full throttle in this.

[kcristob]

"Lastly, observe that the music that accompanies this scene is the DEATH music that you hear only after Jack had died.  This is the music played when Ennis sees the returned postcard with DECEASED stamped on it. "

Wow!  Just another example of how this film stands up to intricate study.  I have also wondered about this scene.  I interpreted the dead sheep as a death of the simplicity of life without their complicated love.  It also shows that already, there are damaging reprocussions of being together.  Loving each other is already reeking havoc.

On a more logistical note:  Was the purpose of propping the dead sheep up to attract the hyena or wolf so he could kill it?  This is probably a "no duh" note - but I'd love confirmation of this.

[jakeofrome]

Isn't a dead coyote fur/skin on a pole we see in the next scene - I've always wondered about that.

[tpe]

"Lastly, observe that the music that accompanies this scene is the DEATH music that you hear only after Jack had died.  This is the music played when Ennis sees the returned postcard with DECEASED stamped on it. "

Wow!  Just another example of how this film stands up to intricate study.  I have also wondered about this scene.  I interpreted the dead sheep as a death of the simplicity of life without their complicated love.  It also shows that already, there are damaging reprocussions of being together.  Loving each other is already reeking havoc.

On a more logistical note:  Was the purpose of propping the dead sheep up to attract the hyena or wolf so he could kill it?  This is probably a "no duh" note - but I'd love confirmation of this.

kcristob, you were reading my mind.  I was thinking of adding a comment about the skin.  The skin is actually the skin of a dead cayote -- presumably the cayote that Ennis mentioned to Jack, or some other cayote he killed (the killler of the sheep?).

On face value, it is a way to frighten future cayotes off the herd of sheep.  The smell of the skin from the dead cayote would have been a sufficiently good repellent.  In a deeper sense, I interpreted this at Ennis not heeding the warning -- standing up to the face of death and declaring that he is not afraid.

I might as well add another important thing and not wait for someone to point it out.  In her essay that accompanies the screenplay, Proulx said that Wyoming is full of DEAD ANIMALS (i.e., carcasses).  She gives an extended and highly amusing account of how a prospective director and producer for Brokeback in the 1990s visiting Wyoming and ended up getting all scared and disturbed by all the dead animals they encountered.  For those of you who have the screenplay, do check it out.

That Proulx dwells on the subject of dead animals in her essay tells us that she considered this as an integral part of Wyoming life and landscape.  This view must have been sufficient to suggest to Ang Lee that he should at least include a scene with a dead animal.  And I believe Proulx acknowledged this authentic gesture.

[tpe]

I agree with it being the stronger classycal metaphor of the movie. I immediately connected it to the death of Jack - as the ultimate consequence of what happened the night before. Ang really went "Greek Tragedy" full throttle in this.

jakeofrome, yes, you said it unvarnished:  to me, it was Jack's death that was being prefigured.

[gjz24]

Thanks for all explanations. Well, I didnot think that far when I watched the movie, I just felt depressed and confused. Ang may wanna tell more form here, but when I first viewed that, I cannot felt that deep, I just felt very sad and heavy. I still felt uncomfortable second time watching that scene. Actually I do not like this scene here. It looks like misleading. My lady friend(she is straight) said after seeing this scene, she felt Ennis was scared and regret for having sex with Jack. and this impresion made her have the same feeling when she saw the alley scene (She never saw the book before).

[ranchgal]

Isn't a dead coyote fur/skin on a pole we see in the next scene - I've always wondered about that.

Yes,  The boys have been collecting and skinning the coyotes they have killed so they have proof they are doing their jobs.    Plus the skins are worth money down off the mountain, if they haven't been too shot up.

Actually the dead sheep scene was set up from the beginning----when Joe tells them what he wants and why---too  much predator loss---force of nature.     What actually surprised me was there was only 1.   Usually if coyotes are going to hunt, you will lose a dozen or better in a night.
I think it was shown because they needed to set up the consequences of Ennis' guilt--he was with Jack and not the sheep, one of the sheep died, and it is his responsibility.
He also didn't go up in time, and got caught down with Jack for the hail storm and the sheep got mixed, another consequence of paying attention to something other than your job.

Also gives Joe A. reasons not to hire Jack and get him on his way to TX.

I see real nature at work, just like the force of nature that brought them together, and Ennis has too much fear based on reality to go forward-----and the dead sheep reinforces in Ennis' mind that this is not right for them, and makes him fight their relationship even more----but forces of nature, don't step aside so he can't give it up either.

[cybernaut]

Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.

Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.

"I aint queer." "Me neither."

Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day?? 

[cartman]

I think the commuting was four hours in total per day:

herd - breakfast in camp
camp - herd
herd - lunch
camp - herd
herd - supper
camp - herd

So it might only have taken 30-45 minutes getting up there and often both of them are by the herd. Maybe Jack couldn´t stand being down there until supper?

[tpe]

This thread is related to the old one discussing the dead sheep.  I will combine this with the older thread.  Please feel free to continue the discussions, as this one touches on other related points. 

[tpe]

Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.

Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.

"I aint queer." "Me neither."

Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day?? 

As you see from the above posts, I believe that the sequence of scenes that surround the 'dead sheep' scene is a prefigurement of Jack's death.

As for Jack being with Ennis with the woolies, I assumed that Jack decided to go to Ennis because he was probably anxious as to the state their relationship/friendship after the first night of sex.  In a sense, Jack wanted to be assured that Ennis would not shun him in a fit of post-coital regret.

[cybernaut]

Thank you for merging the thread. 

And big thanks for reading into the scenes.
I always believe the scenes are tight, integral and related.

When Jack was leading Ennis' hand to his ~hooha~  ,
I was screaming, "Slut Alert Slut Alert, Jake is a Certified Slut!" in jest 
Obviously he had some "experience" and I believe Ennis is probably not the first one.

But I thought Jack hit jackpot with Ennis, given that Ennis hasn't beaten the shit out of him.
Probably that's why Jack decided to latch onto Ennis at that "watching over the sheeps" scene.
I am even surprised that Jack and Ennis appeared relaxed denying themselves being queer despite not doing their jobs... :-\

[tpe]

Thank you for merging the thread. 

And big thanks for reading into the scenes.
I always believe the scenes are tight, integral and related.

When Jack was leading Ennis' hand to his ~hooha~  ,
I was screaming, "Slut Alert Slut Alert, Jake is a Certified Slut!" in jest 
Obviously he had some "experience" and I believe Ennis is probably not the first one.

But I thought Jack hit jackpot with Ennis, given that Ennis hasn't beaten the shit out of him.
Probably that's why Jack decided to latch onto Ennis at that "watching over the sheeps" scene.
I am even surprised that Jack and Ennis appeared relaxed denying themselves being queer despite not doing their jobs... :-\

I agree!  That part of the first tent scene was so intense.  For some time, you would not know if Ennis would hit Jack or kiss him -- Ledger was magnificent here, showing both an excess of desire together with a look of confusion/revulsion.  Ennis ended up not doing either (i.e., hitting jack or kissing Jack) -- he just went straight to the point, shall we say...

[cybernaut]

tpe: What I couldn't understand was that Ennis being the strong slient type can crumble under the knees of Jack!
I mean sure Ennis did... ehm.. "brokeback" Jack, but scene after scene, it is Jack who has to comfort Ennis, holding Ennis and that motel scene, I am not sure who "brokeback" who? Wasn't Ennis the stud duck?? 

I know sex isn't the point here but just an interesting note!

Besides that endearing dead sheep scene, there's another that lover's bicker scene by the river where they were washing plates and Jack suggested Texas... I understood why Jack suggested Texas, so that he can be close to Ennis instead of driving 14 hours just to get to Riverton but Ennis wants to stay close to his girls... What's so strange was that Ennis could open up in such a way that I was amazed he could string long and complete sentences that you normally wouldn't hear from him... and it ended with that endearing, "That's real smart, that Jack !@#$ Twist!", chasing the blue pot at the same time. :-\

I thought that was funny :D   .... I mean how often do you hear bitchin couples frustrate each other for the spite of it simply because they still love each other?

I felt if Ennis would give himself and Jack a chance, he wouldn't be as downcast and appear "stupid" as he looks.

[tpe]

tpe: What I couldn't understand was that Ennis being the strong slient type can crumble under the knees of Jack!
I mean sure Ennis did... ehm.. "brokeback" Jack, but scene after scene, it is Jack who has to comfort Ennis, holding Ennis and that motel scene, I am not sure who "brokeback" who? Wasn't Ennis the stud duck?? 

I know sex isn't the point here but just an interesting note!

Besides that endearing dead sheep scene, there's another that lover's bicker scene by the river where they were washing plates and Jack suggested Texas... I understood why Jack suggested Texas, so that he can be close to Ennis instead of driving 14 hours just to get to Riverton but Ennis wants to stay close to his girls... What's so strange was that Ennis could open up in such a way that I was amazed he could string long and complete sentences that you normally wouldn't hear from him... and it ended with that endearing, "That's real smart, that Jack !@#$ Twist!", chasing the blue pot at the same time. :-\

I thought that was funny :D   .... I mean how often do you hear bitchin couples frustrate each other for the spite of it simply because they still love each other?

I felt if Ennis would give himself and Jack a chance, he wouldn't be as downcast and appear "stupid" as he looks.

I thought Ennis was the one who was the dominant partner in sex, but Jack was clearly the dominant partner in emotional matters.

Gyllenhaal discussed in several interviews (Oprah's being one of them) that it is not very meaningful to determine which one -- Ennis or Jack -- was the 'man' and which one was the 'woman'.  I sort of agree with him here, and as you said, we are never entirely sure whether Ennis always played the dominant role sexually.

The bickerring scene was amusing and touching at the same time.  You see Ennis slightly unhinged -- presumably originating from the Thanksgiving revelation coming from Alma.  Jack thought he saw an openning, but was sadly mistaken! 

[cybernaut]

I guess that's the beauty of Jack... keep putting out ideas and hopefully Ennis would accept it one day over 20 years but sadly Ennis just couldn't bring himself to accept that. Maybe if Jack were to say, we would arm ourselves with C4, hand grenades or IEDs, AK47, hand-made dirty bombs (god, sounds like they are living in the sand-pit in that part of the world), Ennis would probably feel a lot safer and we would kill less trees because of less tears due to the happy ending??  :-\

Can't believe Jack is a salesman, "the best salesman we've got and the only one in fact"... The only sale he just couldn't make was Ennis.

As for sex-wise... I thought Jack had a penile problem in the book and "airplane flying in the motel"? Thus I presume Ennis was doing all the work but instead of being relaxed happy and all smokin', Jack was the one who had all the fun! Ennis looked all guilty, worried, scared... 

But then again, the look on  Ennis' face the morning-after they had their first screw in the tent... I wondered what he was thinking about. Was it, "Gee what did I do last night?" Or "Hell, I screwed a guy and he is sleeping next to me! Jesus! But what the hell!"  :D

[tpe]

I guess that's the beauty of Jack... keep putting out ideas and hopefully Ennis would accept it one day over 20 years but sadly Ennis just couldn't bring himself to accept that.

I'm get a bit emotional reading your above observation.

There is a Whitman poem (from Leaves of Grass) that best sums up Jack as you describe it:


A noiseless, patient spider,   
I mark’d, where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;   
Mark’d how, to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,   
It launch’d forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;   
Ever unreeling them—ever tirelessly speeding them.         
   
And you, O my Soul, where you stand,   
Surrounded, surrounded, in measureless oceans of space,   
Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing,—seeking the spheres, to connect them;   
Till the bridge you will need, be form’d—till the ductile anchor hold;   
Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.   

[cybernaut]

tpe: Thank you for the poem. It is very beautiful.

My mum used to say to me that I have a lot of ideas to do this and that but most of the ideas never come to pass. When Jack's old man said that in the book and movie and the reflection of Jack reminds me of what others said of me as well - funny guy, forgetful, opinionated.

I never thought that those cliches will come up in a movie such as this. Oh well!!  :-\

[tpe]

tpe: Thank you for the poem. It is very beautiful.

My mum used to say to me that I have a lot of ideas to do this and that but most of the ideas never come to pass. When Jack's old man said that in the book and movie and the reflection of Jack reminds me of what others said of me as well - funny guy, forgetful, opinionated.

I never thought that those cliches will come up in a movie such as this. Oh well!!  :-\

Better to dream than to end up always following the herd.

[cybernaut]

tpe: And a heart like Jack's which never settles on one place?  :'(
I mean, god help me if I were to grow old and bitter like Jack thinking of the dreams unfulfilled, feeling like a failure. I know JacK's wanting to do something about his situation even though he has gotten out of being broke but still unhappy...

I guess that society keeps him in check that he cannot get out of and finally came undone.  :'(

As for Ennis, he was so trapped in his own prison that he just couldn't reach out more to the ones who love him the most. Even though he didn't come undone, he still ended up being lonely and unhappy. Maybe it is as good as being undone, tortured for the rest of his life.  :'(

Jack however has the ability to light up and dispels the dark corners in Ennis' toughened soul. How amazing is that?  At least they treasured their moments together no matter how fleeting they are and how long it takes to see each other again. Those memories may fade away but their feelings would never betray them...

[ranchgal]

Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.

Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.

"I aint queer." "Me neither."

Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day?? 

The four hour commute would be dependant on the distance between flock and camp, it would change every time they moved-So by the time Ennis was doing it it could have been either part of the that time, or more even.--and the herder would be riding two hours down to camp,probably about 8 to 12 miles one way---between camp and flock.   So he would eat a big breakfast, take some jerky or dried meat for lunch up with the sheep, and not come down till evening meal.   

[cybernaut]

ranchgal: Thank you! 

I am surprised they are sick of beans morning and evening...

Beans beans the magical flute,
the more you eat the more you toot...

[francis.shim]

Howdy.

I wished I had found this thread earlier.

tpe, I really enjoyed your analysis of the 'dead sheep scene'... insightful and integral.

I had always thought that "Brokeback Mountain" is, in fact, very heavy in christian and religious symbolism:

    1) sheepherding: shepherding is tightly associated with the tending of spiritual groups of people
    2) death of the sheep: a religious sacrifice
    3) mountains and valleys: as in walking though the valley of death... Psalm 23
    4)  shirts: like the wings of angels or represents our souls
    5)  the hanger with a single nail: like a crucifix

Your reference to the "death of the sheep" as a foreshadowing of what's to come for Jack was brilliant.  The previous scene in the tent as Jack was still sleeping and Ennis was waking showed an angelic and contented look on Jack's sleeping face.  The sudden shift between scenes was quite ominous.

Wow... I could go on...

Peace,
Frank