Author Topic: virility and authenticity...  (Read 36206 times)

Offline merry

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virility and authenticity...
« on: Feb 08, 2006, 03:16 AM »
Yesterday I sent a new topic about music but I don't find it in the list of topics, how odd it is...!
I really want u to comment Ang Lee's performance: he succeeds in telling (on screen) a love affair between men without falling into a female logic, into sentimentalism. He avoids stereotypes. Actually, the movie is virile from A to Z: Good thing!!

Merry
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Offline tpe

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #1 on: Feb 08, 2006, 08:50 AM »
Yesterday I sent a new topic about music but I don't find it in the list of topics, how odd it is...!
I really want u to comment Ang Lee's performance: he succeeds in telling (on screen) a love affair between men without falling into a female logic, into sentimentalism. He avoids stereotypes. Actually, the movie is virile from A to Z: Good thing!!

Merry

Hello merry!  Yes, I do think the movie does a great job breaking the current stereotype of effeminacy with respect to homosexual relationships.  In this sense, the relationship between Ennis and Jack achieves an almost classical purity of tone (albeit it is not the younger man - older man relationship that is characteristic of Greek love).   As for authenticity, this is achieved via the superb acting of Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal.  They bring true passion and urgency to the love scenes in a way that belies their real life sexual preferences.  The fact that both actors profess to being straight in no way diminishes their achievement.  On the contrary, this fact only hightens it.  The acting must be commended above all because they do succeed in building an emotional CONNECTION on-screen without recourse to banal cliches of how a gay relationship is viewed in the minds of many people -- even in this day and age.
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2006, 11:10 AM by tpe »

Offline dirtbiker

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #2 on: Feb 08, 2006, 11:07 AM »
Yes, when I went to watch the movie for the first time, I was afraid that there would be too much sap and melodrama, but fortunately, Ang Lee didn't resort to any of that!  Not one iota!

Offline rod1960

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #3 on: Feb 08, 2006, 05:26 PM »
tpe, do you actually know any gay men who Jake and Heath would actually represent?   I don't.  After rereading your response to merry I find it offensive.
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2006, 05:30 PM by rod1960 »

Offline tpe

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #4 on: Feb 08, 2006, 06:00 PM »
tpe, do you actually know any gay men who Jake and Heath would actually represent?   I don't.  After rereading your response to merry I find it offensive.

I apologize for any unintended offense. 

But I do not get the nature of the offense.  Please elucidate.

Offline tpe

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #5 on: Feb 08, 2006, 06:16 PM »
tpe, do you actually know any gay men who Jake and Heath would actually represent?   I don't.  After rereading your response to merry I find it offensive.

Hello rod1960, I will be gone for the next two weeks on a trip overseas, so I may not be able to read any follow-ups or respond prior to Feb 25.

With respect to the above question, I have at least 3 gay friends who actually feel strongly that Jake and Heath are striking representations of their younger or current selves.  All three friends are very different.  One is a former priest, the other is a coworker in the field of finance, and the last one is a grad student in the field of literature.  In each case, they see themselves as living embodiments of either Ennis or Jack (the first two with Ennis, the third one, Jack).  You cannot convince them otherwise.  To these friends of mine, Ennis and Jack are REAL people -- simply because they strike so close to heart and home.  It amazes me that even though all three come from very different backgrounds, age groups, and cultures, all three of them see the movie as if they look upon a mirror.

There is no higher complement one can give superb acting: to be able to touch reality with both hands without being embedded in it.  The acting relies on no fixed cliche or mindset.  The reach is universal, as far as my 3 friends are concerned.  I will not say otherwise.
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2006, 06:20 PM by tpe »

Offline CherryCake

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #6 on: Feb 08, 2006, 06:48 PM »
tpe, do you actually know any gay men who Jake and Heath would actually represent?   I don't.  After rereading your response to merry I find it offensive.

Rod,
I have met and dated many guys who reminded me so much of Jack and/or Ennis.  What does it mean though?
If you are referring 'current stereotypes' line, I am glad the movie didn't have those as well.  Most straight people equate gay with femininity 100 per cent.  We all know that's not the case in real life, don't we?
It's nice to see a non-stereotype gay person on screen. That's all I'm saying.
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2006, 06:54 PM by CherryCake »
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Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #7 on: Feb 08, 2006, 09:05 PM »

There is no higher complement one can give superb acting: to be able to touch reality with both hands without being embedded in it.  The acting relies on no fixed cliche or mindset.  The reach is universal, as far as my 3 friends are concerned.  I will not say otherwise.

tpe - I agree, nicely put.
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Offline rod1960

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #8 on: Feb 08, 2006, 09:38 PM »
So I am to gather effeminate gay men are not worthy of love.  90 percent of gay men are effeminate to some degree, some more, some less.  We are what we are.  Just after Christmas I had to take my nephew to see King Kong as I had promised.  We arrived just at the last minute.  We decided to go ahead and get drinks.  I suddenly noticed the place was swarming with gay men. I looked up at the movie posters and noticed BBM was playing.  You don't need a sign over their heads to realize they were gay. I find it a real downer we need a movie like BBM, the ultimate gay fantasy to make us feel better about ourselves. God I hope I'm "virile".  I find it funny they needed the fireworks scene in the movie to show Ennis was not a "gurly man" but a "real man" a "fighting man".

Offline rane99

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #9 on: Feb 08, 2006, 09:55 PM »
So I am to gather effeminate gay men are not worthy of love. 

Rod, where did you extrapolate that from? I don't recall anyone saying who was or was not worthy of love...
What I got from previous posts is that is nice to see a variety of gay men--effeminate and not effeminate...
BBM is another view if gay men, if you will.... not the definition of gay men
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Offline dirtbiker

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #10 on: Feb 08, 2006, 10:53 PM »
So I am to gather effeminate gay men are not worthy of love.  90 percent of gay men are effeminate to some degree, some more, some less.  We are what we are.  Just after Christmas I had to take my nephew to see King Kong as I had promised.  We arrived just at the last minute.  We decided to go ahead and get drinks.  I suddenly noticed the place was swarming with gay men. I looked up at the movie posters and noticed BBM was playing.  You don't need a sign over their heads to realize they were gay. I find it a real downer we need a movie like BBM, the ultimate gay fantasy to make us feel better about ourselves. God I hope I'm "virile".  I find it funny they needed the fireworks scene in the movie to show Ennis was not a "gurly man" but a "real man" a "fighting man".

And where did that 90% statistic come from?  Was there a study done somewhere? Please clarify.

Offline chameau

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #11 on: Feb 08, 2006, 11:14 PM »
So I am to gather effeminate gay men are not worthy of love.  90 percent of gay men are effeminate to some degree, some more, some less.  We are what we are.  Just after Christmas I had to take my nephew to see King Kong as I had promised.  We arrived just at the last minute.  We decided to go ahead and get drinks.  I suddenly noticed the place was swarming with gay men. I looked up at the movie posters and noticed BBM was playing.  You don't need a sign over their heads to realize they were gay. I find it a real downer we need a movie like BBM, the ultimate gay fantasy to make us feel better about ourselves. God I hope I'm "virile".  I find it funny they needed the fireworks scene in the movie to show Ennis was not a "gurly man" but a "real man" a "fighting man".

And where did that 90% statistic come from?  Was there a study done somewhere? Please clarify.

Ditto!
Quote
I find it funny they needed the fireworks scene in the movie to show Ennis was not a "gurly man" but a "real man" a "fighting man".


What does that mean?

Please clarify.
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Offline rod1960

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #12 on: Feb 08, 2006, 11:31 PM »
chameau, are you straight acting? If someone meet you they would have no idea you are gay?

Offline chameau

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #13 on: Feb 09, 2006, 12:11 AM »
chameau, are you straight acting? If someone meet you they would have no idea you are gay?

Friend, it's not the point, everyone that knows me, know where I stand.  I just found your posting being disturbing for so many friends here.

Peace my friend.
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Offline flikker2005

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #14 on: Feb 09, 2006, 12:35 AM »
I find 'Brokeback Mountain' ground-breaking, in that it is essentially a love story between two men.  period.

We love in a way in which we have little control.

Ennis, Jack ...
viril YES.

two men
two women
man woman

Viril YES.
Authentic YES.

Two men together is always testosterone x2.

'Brokeback Mountain' is authentic ... I can assure anyone.

I can personnally vouche for the feelings, passion and heartbreak of 'Brokeback Mountain'.




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Offline camom

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #15 on: Feb 09, 2006, 01:14 AM »
I find it funny they needed the fireworks scene in the movie to show Ennis was not a "gurly man" but a "real man" a "fighting man".

I don't think that scene had anything to do with Ennis' being a "real man."  It was showing his fear manifesting itself in physical violence; i.e., after one of the bikers made a crack about his "puttin' it" to Alma.  Ennis' violence is always about fear, always reactive.

camom

JerBear418720

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #16 on: Feb 09, 2006, 01:14 AM »
I think that this opens the whole question of what is "masculine" and what is not.  Men of all sexual persuasions pretty much have a "handbook" given to them by society, but we gay guys have to sit with a red pen and edit the "manual" to suit our own lives.  That takes courage - surely a traditional, time-honored masculine trait.  But even saying THAT is gonna get me clobbered by a lot of women, and rightly so.  The whole thing starts becoming a confusing morass that I, for one, am not willing to sort through.

A long time ago, I got tired of trying to edit the "handbook", and I just "wrote" my own.  I am a man.  That is not defined by the gender of my bed partners, who I can knock down in a fight, how many beers I can knock back, how "manly" I walk or talk, or anything else that I consider irrelevant.

To me a man is someone who cares for those he loves, sticks to his convictions, gets up and tries again when life knocks him down, fights his demons with all his might, holds his head up and demands to be counted, never EVER gives up - and whether he is a s*hit-kickin Ennis-type, wears makeup and a feather boa, or falls somewhere in between, it doesn't make a damned bit of difference.

Offline cybernaut

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #17 on: Feb 09, 2006, 01:29 AM »
JerBear418720: Your definition of being a man has very high expectations.  :-\

I would probably fail abysmally and miserably by your definition.
Well, I guess you can call me a sissy now.  :-[

So as you know, most of the "man" rules are written by women.
No offence to them but I always hear them criticising men: No enough $$, too ugly/geeky/dorky, no fashion sense, no future, not romantic enough, not macho enough...
I'm saying a prayer of thanks... that you didn't bring your harmonica!

JerBear418720

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #18 on: Feb 09, 2006, 01:40 AM »
JerBear418720: Your definition of being a man has very high expectations.  :-\

I would probably fail abysmally and miserably by your definition.
Well, I guess you can call me a sissy now.  :-[

So as you know, most of the "man" rules are written by women.
No offence to them but I always hear them criticising men: No enough $$, too ugly/geeky/dorky, no fashion sense, no future, not romantic enough, not macho enough...

Cybie, they are goals, of course.  I routinely stumble and fall short just like the next guy - I'm human.  I just try and always shoot high.  No, I would NOT call u a sissy or use any other deprecating word to describe you - you've reached out to me before, and I know u to be a fine man.  We're not on the same page about women, but hey.....

Offline merry

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #19 on: Feb 09, 2006, 02:48 AM »
Yeah... I think it's a really interesting debate. Actually, BBM just renounces to the clichés and it is a good thing. Look, I don't blame effeminate gays at all. With respect to that, friends of mine are effeminate gays. That is not the point. People have to know that there is as much effeminate gays as non-effeminates ones. BBM just refuses the thesis which consists of saying: "All gays are effeminate people". My opinion is that each man has a slight female part in him. Some men assumeit, others don't. Some of them are aware of that reality, others aren't; but sexual orientation has nothing to do with it, it's a fact. I just hope BBM will make some people change their mind  ;)

Merry
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Offline cybernaut

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #20 on: Feb 09, 2006, 03:13 AM »
Cybie, they are goals, of course.  I routinely stumble and fall short just like the next guy - I'm human.  I just try and always shoot high.  No, I would NOT call u a sissy or use any other deprecating word to describe you - you've reached out to me before, and I know u to be a fine man.  We're not on the same page about women, but hey.....

Thank you.  :)
I know I don't have much self-confidence to begin with but I do empathize with guys like you. I only try to be a better person, than to box myself in. I have my guidelines and principals from my limited Christian education that I hold dear.

Well, as what I have mentioned about women... you do know some gay men do that too...  ;)
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #21 on: Feb 09, 2006, 03:55 AM »
The acting must be commended above all because they do succeed in building an emotional CONNECTION on-screen without recourse to banal cliches of how a gay relationship is viewed in the minds of many people -- even in this day and age.

To be fair to the straight populace, they view gay relationships the way they do because all they really see are the flamboyant among us. Whether it be in books, magazines, news, television programs, movies or wherever, that is what they see.  They have no reason to believe it is any different. That is why this movie is so wonderful.  For the first time they get to see a different side of us.
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #22 on: Feb 09, 2006, 04:19 AM »
So as you know, most of the "man" rules are written by women.

No offence to them but I always hear them criticising men: No enough $$, too ugly/geeky/dorky, no fashion sense, no future, not romantic enough, not macho enough...

Cybernaut, think for a minute, haven't you ever heard those same words and more coming out of the mouthes of gay men in the bar?  I think gay men can be the most picky and superficial people around.  I don't think women own that one by themselves.  In fact, I think they own very little of it; we own the rest.

And we are always looking for something "better".  A reason gay relationships don't last; usually?
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

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Offline cybernaut

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #23 on: Feb 09, 2006, 06:07 AM »
Cybernaut, think for a minute, haven't you ever heard those same words and more coming out of the mouthes of gay men in the bar?  I think gay men can be the most picky and superficial people around.  I don't think women own that one by themselves.  In fact, I think they own very little of it; we own the rest.

And we are always looking for something "better".  A reason gay relationships don't last; usually?

These gay fashion-nazis have labels. Money boys, Old Predators...  :-[
Well, I am not water-walking muscle hung Jesus but I guess they have virtues of their own., otherwise why would we have Sex and the City and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy? haha  ;)
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Offline rod1960

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #24 on: Feb 09, 2006, 07:52 AM »
First I want to apologize to everyone. I didn't intent to start such an uproar.  I want to say I just love this movie and the story, that's why I'm here.  I had a bad day yesterday and when I read that post it just hit me the wrong way.  As much as I love this movie, there is a small part of me that resents the hell out of it.  The need for us to be legetimized by straight actors in a gay rolls. One day I overheard some men talking about BBM, they said they heard it was a good movie because it didn't have any real queers in it. They laughed, and said , you know "homos on the range".  I know they wanted me to hear it.  I'm sorry, I'm very poor at expressing what I feel, I'm no Annie Proulx.    Cheers

Offline Patriot1

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #25 on: Feb 09, 2006, 08:06 AM »
First I want to apologize to everyone. I didn't intent to start such an uproar.  I want to say I just love this movie and the story, that's why I'm here.  I had a bad day yesterday and when I read that post it just hit me the wrong way.  As much as I love this movie, there is a small part of me that resents the hell out of it.  The need for us to be legetimized by straight actors in a gay rolls. One day I overheard some men talking about BBM, they said they heard it was a good movie because it didn't have any real queers in it. They laughed, and said , you know "homos on the range".  I know they wanted me to hear it.  I'm sorry, I'm very poor at expressing what I feel, I'm no Annie Proulx.    Cheers

The Patriot walks up behind you, wraps his arms around you and gives you a looooong  hug.  :-*
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline cybernaut

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #26 on: Feb 09, 2006, 08:54 AM »
First I want to apologize to everyone. I didn't intent to start such an uproar.  I want to say I just love this movie and the story, that's why I'm here.  I had a bad day yesterday and when I read that post it just hit me the wrong way.  As much as I love this movie, there is a small part of me that resents the hell out of it.  The need for us to be legetimized by straight actors in a gay rolls. One day I overheard some men talking about BBM, they said they heard it was a good movie because it didn't have any real queers in it. They laughed, and said , you know "homos on the range".  I know they wanted me to hear it.  I'm sorry, I'm very poor at expressing what I feel, I'm no Annie Proulx.    Cheers

I don't feel ashamed in letting your straight friends say that and besides its about time that somebody would do a great movie like that. It is very sad that it takes straight men to do a non-screaming queen "gay" movie. Just look at the recent gay productions, its either "fashion-nazis" (Queer Eye), screaming-bitchin queens (Will & Grace), sexa-mania (Queer as Folk) or lesbian-butches (The L Word), even the Producers!. It gets really stale after a while that other people think that gays only see the world as their stage and act out in total extreme.  :-[

I may sound that I discriminate the effeminate gays and trannies, but I don't. I just wish that the media has a much better diverse view of society, not just "haha-giggle, he is so funny, lets put him as the gay clown because he tickles our bellies" and then denounce equality because "God says homo is an abomination."

So I don't think you should feel embarrassed, Rod. You should feel proud that finally somebody, even though they may be straight, had the courage to confront society, no matter how stupidly conservative or liberal they are, with real-life Ennis and Jack that most of us can relate to and are suffering because they have to bow to society's expectations and conventions. Too often I see men living half of their lives regretting the actions or inaction's they have done when they were young, and like Ennis in the movie, it is too late to change anything and have to live with the consequences.

I would probably not respond in kind to them. I would gladly smile at them because at least this movie is indeed making an impact.
Please don't feel so bad for yourself. *Hugs* :)
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Offline Rod

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #27 on: Feb 09, 2006, 09:59 AM »
I have written this before somewhere, some other topic....it seems to me that "straight" America always wants to cast "gays" sterotypically into certain modes.  Look at the success of Liberace, Paul Lynde, Will and Grace, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.  On the Oprah interview she said that one of the things that struck here were that there was none of the steroptypes.."swish or lisp".  Unfortuneately none of the actors knew enough or cared to comment that just because that is what you see on TV does not mean that is all there is to gay men.  I would guess that most gay men, (no facts here, just thinkin) would not necessarily be known to be gay unless they chose to make themselves known.  I am glad gay people can be whatever they wish, but I am glad also that people may know that all of us are not the steotypes you see on TV. 
I think our society likes to think of us as stereotypes because these are not threatening to them.  They have been somewhat emasculated in their eyes.  I am glad we now have some "role" models that may say.....Gays can be gay and still be men.  They don't always act like society's stereotype of them.  I hope I put this correctly, I am not trying to put anyone down, it is just a personal choice I guess, I like my men to be authentic.  What I mean by that is, just act like who you are.  I think some people think if they are gay they have to have "gay" affectations.  I don't think so, I think it sorta demeans a person to "act like something" rather than be who they are....
« Last Edit: Feb 09, 2006, 10:46 AM by Rod »

JerBear418720

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #28 on: Feb 09, 2006, 12:27 PM »
Maybe what we arrive at here is that gay men are going through the same development process in the media that African-Americans did.  Too many early roles in television and in movies showed blacks as stereotyped bug-eyed clowns or maids and butlers - in short, "kept them in their place".  The great Nat King Cole could not ever get commercial sponsors for his TV program in 1957.  That, of course, all changed, and now the full integration of fully-faceted black people in all kinds of media roles doesn't even elicit a reaction from anybody except marginal hate-mongers (KKK, neo-Nazis).

BBM may be a watershed event for gays in that caricatures are totally avoided.  Ennis and Jack are portrayed as fully human SEXUAL gay men - and its done with such grace and beauty that to object makes one a club-carrying neatherthal.  BBM is a step in OUR process, but hearts and minds are not changed overnight - it could take many years.  All you can do while you impatiently wait is to live your life in such a way that those YOU come into contact with learn, change and grow, if only just a little.  Helping others to expand their definitions of masculinity and virility is part of this, IMHO.  John Wayne was a great icon of traditional American masculinity in a certain time and place, but, with all due respect, he's dead, so lets's move on.

BBM is a HUGE step in the right direction, but I don't see it as a "Berlin Wall Coming Down" event for gays.  I'd like to think, though, that in 50 years, people will wonder what all the fuss was about.  Personally, I hope it happens faster.  I'm 57, and I'd like to live to see us reach that point.

JB  :D




Offline CherryCake

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Re: virility and authenticity...
« Reply #29 on: Feb 09, 2006, 10:44 PM »
Well, I'm not ready to start shouting "Kill Straighty!" yet, but I'm to the point where I realize we are on this goof-ball planet way too short of time to wait around for other people's  approval.
Thanks guys.

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« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2006, 11:26 PM by CherryCake »
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