Author Topic: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?  (Read 35101 times)

Offline Laundrymat

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Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« on: Feb 08, 2006, 11:34 AM »
I’ve been digging the forum but still have not found the answer yet, so I am gonna ask here.

As we all know he was pretty sure what happened up there. Does it mean he is a kind man, somehow open-mined? Or he just doesn’t want to become part of the gossip?

Thanks in advance. :)
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Ennis: I am gettin' tired of you dumbass missin'

Offline jimmypage

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #1 on: Feb 08, 2006, 11:56 AM »
I’ve been digging the forum but still have not found the answer yet, so I am gonna ask here.

As we all know he was pretty sure what happened up there. Does it mean he is a kind man, somehow open-mined? Or he just doesn’t want to become part of the gossip?

Thanks in advance. :)

The second option you said...
he's not kind with Jack, he's bitterly sarcastic... (and he doesn't hire him anymore).

Offline tpe

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #2 on: Feb 08, 2006, 12:05 PM »
Aguirre probably found it too distasteful to discuss or even think about.  He probably wasn't an innocent.   And he was deeply prejudiced -- against ranch hands, and ranch hands having 'fun' during work.  But he clearly did not want Jack back because of what he saw up on Brokeback.

Offline Laundrymat

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #3 on: Feb 08, 2006, 12:17 PM »
If Aguirre did spread the “news”, I feel so bad for Ennis… :(

Riverton is close to Brokeback, and He had to live in a town where people look down on him. It’s just too much...too much...
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Offline manila_rocks

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #4 on: Feb 08, 2006, 12:22 PM »
I would venture to say this evil boss probably would have liked a piece of the action himself.   The decrepit wretch.

Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #5 on: Feb 08, 2006, 01:28 PM »
In the story it sais he waits about ten minutes until they button up theyr jeans and Ennis goes back to the sheep, before coming down to tell Jack about his uncle...so I get the feeling he actually watches them for a while... and it's not so much the fact that they are having sex that bothers him, but that they are having sex instead of looking after the sheep. The short story says Ennis spends more and more time in the camp with Jack... "sheep be damned"
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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #6 on: Feb 08, 2006, 02:34 PM »
Yeah, I kinda think that while he was hardly a "charmer", Aguirre was more concerned about the boys not doing their jobs than he was about the "rose stemming" - tho he obviously found that distasteful.  He is just generally hardened and rude - remember the phone convo at the beginning?  Imagine being married to THAT...I'd rather eat Drano.

JB  :D

Offline rabjr1

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #7 on: Feb 08, 2006, 03:50 PM »
I fhe fired them because he saw them "steming the rose" people might ask him why he hired them in the first place.  He did the thing that was the easiest - just don't hire them again and DON'T tell them or anyone else why.
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Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #8 on: Feb 08, 2006, 04:04 PM »
He wasn't polite enough to watch for 10 minutes until they were finished to tell about the Uncle. Man doesn't have a kind bone in his body. Personally, I think he watched the show, although he was ticked off about the Sheep, little doubt remains about that. Gawd - If I was hooked up to that, I'd pull the plug on myself!
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Offline stephan

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #9 on: Feb 08, 2006, 04:15 PM »
Hello Laundrymat,
when Aguirre spies on them with his binoculars, I get the impression it wasn't by accident that he had them. As if he had seen it happen before with other summer workers... as if it were something people knew happened but wouldn't ever admit or condone. Typical hypocrites.
Stephan

Offline CherryCake

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #10 on: Feb 08, 2006, 06:17 PM »
HAHHAHAH
My antannae went up in the story when it said he said spied on them for 10 minutes!!  What's up with that. Augurre ain't no right to expect them to be on duty 27/4.

I would like to know why he hired Jack back if he didn't think Jack had done a good job the previous summer.


« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2006, 06:24 PM by CherryCake »
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Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #11 on: Feb 08, 2006, 06:20 PM »
when Aguirre spies on them with his binoculars

Those binoculars are well placed in the background when jack comes back the next summer. We see them behind Aguirres back when he tells JAck he ain't got no work for him... coincidence? I think not...
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Offline AnitaSmith

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #12 on: Feb 08, 2006, 07:41 PM »
HAHHAHAH My antannae went up in the story when it said he said spied on them for 10 minutes!!  What's up with that. Augurre ain't no right to expect them to be on duty 27/4. I would like to know why he hired Jack back if he didn't think Jack had done a good job the previous summer.

Joe Aguirre was a total a$$hole.  I recall that Aguirre had even blamed Jack Twist for losing heads of sheep when they were hit by lightning the previous summer. I don't know what Aguirre paid Ennis and Jack, but the mountain lived up to its named because it was truly backbreaking work herding those sheep.  (As an aside, the film's director, Ang Lee, said he'd never work with sheep in a film again. Jake Gyllenhaal said he'd never encountered such dumb creatures.) 

But to answer the original question, my guess is that Aguirre didn't expose Jack/Ennis just in case he might need them for future work.  It wasn't exactly a crowd that lined up to take the sheep herding job.  (BTW, Randy Quaid was perfect as Joe Aguirre.  Great voice.)

Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #13 on: Feb 08, 2006, 07:46 PM »
Aguirre ain't go no right to make them sleep out there without a fire, he ain't no right to go round spyin' on people either, let alone expect them to stick the flock of dumbest animals this side of turkeys. It's people like Aguirre that make one think a little shove off a cliff isn't a bad thing.
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Offline cybernaut

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #14 on: Feb 08, 2006, 07:53 PM »
Aguirre ain't go no right to make them sleep out there without a fire, he ain't no right to go round spyin' on people either, let alone expect them to stick the flock of dumbest animals this side of turkeys. It's people like Aguirre that make one think a little shove off a cliff isn't a bad thing.

I had expected a little spotcheck from Aguirre. Hell, he might have even used Jack's uncle's pneumonia as an excuse to see them. Herding sheeps may not be so bad...but herding cats!!! eeeks!
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Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #15 on: Feb 08, 2006, 08:52 PM »
Herding sheeps may not be so bad...but herding cats!!! eeeks!
;D ;D ;D
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Offline Apollonos

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #16 on: Feb 09, 2006, 01:41 AM »
Another possible reason why he didn't expose them is he was afraid that if he exposed them, they would turn around and expose Aguirre to the park rangers for breaking the rules. I would imagine that there would be fines involved, and he might have been banned from herding his sheep on park grounds. Just a thought.

Offline brian2006

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #17 on: Feb 09, 2006, 03:59 AM »
i think Aguirre has no point to expose them!

what he got if he expose their relationship?

i think ppl won't do things that comes nothing, right?

Offline gsingjane

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #18 on: Feb 09, 2006, 08:12 AM »
I have thought about this in the same context that I wondered why, after Alma discovered that Jack and Ennis were lovers, she apparently didn't march that all over town, either.  Looking back on how things were in this country in the 1960's, you literally never heard about people being gay from year to year.  It was just something that people never, ever, spoke about.  Maybe once in a while you would hear some comment (I remember my mother telling me that most Nazis were homosexuals and that's why they were so horrible) but mostly, you would never hear anything, one way or ther other.  It just wasn't done, to even mention that this could occur.  Now of course since there is SO much more openess about all kinds of topics, you hear the good but you also hear the bad.  People's antennae are up to the subject, whereas they absolutely weren't before.

Maybe I'm wrong - it isn't like Aguirre was this tasteful, polite character after all.  He seemed like a guy who would call a spade a spade.  But it might also just be in line with the fact that back then, homosexuality was an incredibly deep, dark secret, so awful that it couldn't be mentioned AT ALL, much less accepted or (gasp!) celebrated.

Jane in CT

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #19 on: Feb 09, 2006, 08:37 AM »
actually, i read somewhere that when annie was doing research for this she had asked one of the farmers/sheppards that was it normal for two white kids to be sent up the mountain to look after sheep, he had said yah, its normal, and mentioned the most they would do is poke each other.  aguirre probably knew this was normal and not give much thought.  the reason i think he refused to hire jack back was maybe augirre felt jack was wasting time and distracting from his woolies.  aguirre cared more about the woolies than the boys.  in my opinion.

it is true people didn't talk about it back then openly.  all they said was so and so is queer.  i guess now days we associate queer with being gay, however, back then it meant strange, weird, not normal.  this is why annie wrote the line i ain't queer, neither am i.

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #20 on: Feb 09, 2006, 09:48 AM »
When Aguirre spies on them with his binoculars, I get the impression it wasn't by accident that he had them. As if he had seen it happen before with other summer workers... as if it were something people knew happened but wouldn't ever admit or condone. Typical hypocrites.
Stephan

Interesting you should say that Stephan.  Just tonight/this morning I was reading an essay Annie proulx wrote about when she was writing the story.

Quote from: Annie Proulx
As I worked on the story over the next months scenes appeared and disappeared. (The story went through more than sixty revisions.) The mountain encounter had to be---shall we say?---"seminal" and brief. One spring, years before, I had been in the Big Horns and noticed distant flocks of sheep on great slopes. From the heights I had been able to see a hundred miles and more to the plains. In such isolated high country, away from opprobrious comments and watchful eyes, I thought it would be plausible for the characters to get into a sexual situation. That's nothing new or out of the ordinary; livestock workers have a blunt and full understanding of the sexual behaviors of man and beast. High lonesome situation, a couple of guys---expediency sometimes rules and nobody needs to talk about it and that's how it is. One old sheep rancher, dead now, used to say he always sent up two men to tend the sheep "so's if they get lonesome they can poke each other." From that perspective Aguirre, the hiring man, would have winked and said nothing, and Ennis's remark to Jack that this was a one-shot deal would have been accurate. The complicating factor was that they both fell into once-in-a-lifetime love.

So, Annie P.  seems to be saying this was a pretty normal thing and Aguirre wouldn't have thought a thing about it.  That he would have waited a decent time period after the boys finished and then would have gone into camp.

The reason he wouldn't hire Jack again must be that he was angry the boys weren't doing their jobs watching the sheep.

Make sense?

Patriot
« Last Edit: Feb 09, 2006, 09:43 PM by Patriot1 »
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Offline stephan

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #21 on: Feb 09, 2006, 05:01 PM »
When Aguirre spies on them with his binoculars, I get the impression it wasn't by accident that he had them. As if he had seen it happen before with other summer workers... as if it were something people knew happened but wouldn't ever admit or condone. Typical hypocrites.
Stephan

Interesting you should say that Stephan.  Just tonight/this morning I was reading an essay Annie proulx wrote about when she was writing the story.

Quote from: Annie Proulx
As I worked on the story over the next months scenes appeared and disappeared. (The story went through more than sixty revisions.) The mountain encounter had to be---shall we say?---"seminal" and brief. One spring, years before, I had been in the Big Horns and noticed distant flocks of sheep on great slopes. From the heights I had been able to see a hundred miles and more to the plains. In such isolated high country, away from opprobrious comments and watchful eyes, I thought it would be plausible for the characters to get into a sexual situation. That's nothing new or out of the ordinary; livestock workers have a blunt and full understanding of the sexual behaviors of man and beast. High lonesome situation, a couple of guys---expediency sometimes rules and nobody needs to talk about it and that's how it is. One old sheep rancher, dead now, used to say he always sent up two men to tend the sheep "so's if they get lonesome they can poke each other." From that perspective Aguirre, the hiring man, would have winked and said nothing, and Ennis's remark to Jack that this was a one-shot deal would have been accurate. The complicating factor was that they both fell into once-in-a-lifetime love.

So, Annie P.  seems to be saying this was a pretty normal thing and Aguirre wouldn't have thought a thing about it.  That he would have waited a decent time period after the boys finished and then would have gone into camp.
The reason he wouldn't hire Jack again must be that he was angry the boys weren't doing their jobs by watching the sheep.
Make sense?
Patriot

Hi Patriot. Thanks for the information. Reading this thread has actually softened my thinking on Aguirre. His tough macho character could plausibly be a façade for... a lonely heart ? Stephan

Offline cybernaut

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #22 on: Feb 09, 2006, 05:21 PM »
Well, you don't want either Jack or Ennis to become one of Jack Nicholson in The Shining do you?  :-X
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #23 on: Feb 09, 2006, 05:46 PM »
Hi Patriot. Thanks for the information. Reading this thread has actually softened my thinking on Aguirre. His tough macho character could plausibly be a façade for... a lonely heart ? Stephan

No, I don't think so Stephan.  I think Aguirre's gruffness is just normal.  Reading everything I can that Annie Proulx has written, story, essay, personal comments, I get the feeling this is normal behavior. People in the country of Wyoming, and any state I guess, have a very hard life. They are no nonsense people that have to do much for themselves.  They are friendly and warm people but not the huggy bear kissy pough types.  Except for big ranches they are poor, down to earth people, no time for smiles and handshakes.

It is a place where the work is hard, the winters are cold and you have to work long hours caring for your stock, unless you are rich enough to hire help. 

Sort of like Jack's Dad.  Simple man, small ranch, not a lot of money to hire help.  Getting old, not so spry any longer and his only son so "special" he wouldn't work on the family ranch to help make a go of it.  I think Mr. Twist looked at Ennis with such anger is because he saw Ennis as one of those things that took his son away from the family ranch.

At least that is what I come away with while reading the things Ms. Proulx has to say.

I once thought of moving to Wyoming to live out the time I have left but discovered that Wyoming had the highest suicide rate among single old men.  I figured I didn't need any help from Wyoming and canned that idea quickly.  :-)
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Offline stephan

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #24 on: Feb 09, 2006, 05:55 PM »

I think Mr. Twist looked at Ennis with such anger is because he saw Ennis as one of those things that took his son away from the family ranch.

That could very well be, it happens in every corner of this globe. Another point of why this is a trememdous story : it's do-and-be-what-everyone-expects-you-to-do-and-be versus follow your own heart. Stephan

Offline rabjr1

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #25 on: Feb 09, 2006, 06:47 PM »
When Aguirre spies on them with his binoculars, I get the impression it wasn't by accident that he had them. As if he had seen it happen before with other summer workers... as if it were something people knew happened but wouldn't ever admit or condone. Typical hypocrites.
Stephan

Interesting you should say that Stephan.  Just tonight/this morning I was reading an essay Annie proulx wrote about when she was writing the story.

Quote from: Annie Proulx
As I worked on the story over the next months scenes appeared and disappeared. (The story went through more than sixty revisions.) The mountain encounter had to be---shall we say?---"seminal" and brief. One spring, years before, I had been in the Big Horns and noticed distant flocks of sheep on great slopes. From the heights I had been able to see a hundred miles and more to the plains. In such isolated high country, away from opprobrious comments and watchful eyes, I thought it would be plausible for the characters to get into a sexual situation. That's nothing new or out of the ordinary; livestock workers have a blunt and full understanding of the sexual behaviors of man and beast. High lonesome situation, a couple of guys---expediency sometimes rules and nobody needs to talk about it and that's how it is. One old sheep rancher, dead now, used to say he always sent up two men to tend the sheep "so's if they get lonesome they can poke each other." From that perspective Aguirre, the hiring man, would have winked and said nothing, and Ennis's remark to Jack that this was a one-shot deal would have been accurate. The complicating factor was that they both fell into once-in-a-lifetime love.

So, Annie P.  seems to be saying this was a pretty normal thing and Aguirre wouldn't have thought a thing about it.  That he would have waited a decent time period after the boys finished and then would have gone into camp.

The reason he wouldn't hire Jack again must be that he was angry the boys weren't doing their jobs by watching the sheep.

Make sense?

Patriot

Yes, having seen the two going at he couldn't just fire them nor create a scenario where they might quit.  The movie opens up with just the two of them looking for the job, there wasn't anyone else queueing up for it.  After all there about 1,000 sheep on their (Jack's and Ennis') allotment, and remember there are the Chilean and theri respective herds of sheep somewhere near enough to Jack and Ennis for their sheep to get mixed up during a storm.
 
Joe Aguirre was only interested in the welfare of the herd and probably decided to deal with those two "dueces" after the summer pasturing was over and he did not infact re-hire Jack.

ps.  In the openign neither Jack nor Joe acknowledged each other when Joe pulled up to the office.  Jack did work the year before and sort of got blamed for the weather that killed 42 sheep on the mountain.  Thought that was interesting

AND the use of the binoculars?  Why wouldn't Joe have binoculars?  Saves him from riding all over the mountain to check up on the sheep and herders when all he needed was a good pair of binoculars to check on everything form a great distance - unseen himself by the herders.
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Offline rikcub

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #26 on: Feb 09, 2006, 09:05 PM »
When Aguirre spies on them with his binoculars, I get the impression it wasn't by accident that he had them. As if he had seen it happen before with other summer workers... as if it were something people knew happened but wouldn't ever admit or condone. Typical hypocrites.
Stephan

Interesting you should say that Stephan.  Just tonight/this morning I was reading an essay Annie proulx wrote about when she was writing the story.

Quote from: Annie Proulx
As I worked on the story over the next months scenes appeared and disappeared. (The story went through more than sixty revisions.) The mountain encounter had to be---shall we say?---"seminal" and brief. One spring, years before, I had been in the Big Horns and noticed distant flocks of sheep on great slopes. From the heights I had been able to see a hundred miles and more to the plains. In such isolated high country, away from opprobrious comments and watchful eyes, I thought it would be plausible for the characters to get into a sexual situation. That's nothing new or out of the ordinary; livestock workers have a blunt and full understanding of the sexual behaviors of man and beast. High lonesome situation, a couple of guys---expediency sometimes rules and nobody needs to talk about it and that's how it is. One old sheep rancher, dead now, used to say he always sent up two men to tend the sheep "so's if they get lonesome they can poke each other." From that perspective Aguirre, the hiring man, would have winked and said nothing, and Ennis's remark to Jack that this was a one-shot deal would have been accurate. The complicating factor was that they both fell into once-in-a-lifetime love.

So, Annie P.  seems to be saying this was a pretty normal thing and Aguirre wouldn't have thought a thing about it.  That he would have waited a decent time period after the boys finished and then would have gone into camp.

The reason he wouldn't hire Jack again must be that he was angry the boys weren't doing their jobs by watching the sheep.

Make sense?

Patriot

Absolutely...I have to agree with you after reading what Annie Proulx has to say.  I think Joe Aguirre was just a businessman pure and simple...didn't really care what happened on BBM...as long as his investment was taken care of...and of course Jack and Ennis blew that big time!   ;D

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #27 on: Feb 09, 2006, 09:13 PM »
Yes, I think that make perfectly sense after reading AP's essay.

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #28 on: Feb 09, 2006, 09:48 PM »
So, Annie P.  seems to be saying this was a pretty normal thing and Aguirre wouldn't have thought a thing about it.  That he would have waited a decent time period after the boys finished and then would have gone into camp.

The reason he wouldn't hire Jack again must be that he was angry the boys weren't doing their jobs by watching the sheep.

Make sense?

Patriot

Absolutely...I have to agree with you after reading what Annie Proulx has to say.  I think Joe Aguirre was just a businessman pure and simple...didn't really care what happened on BBM...as long as his investment was taken care of...and of course Jack and Ennis blew that big time!   ;D

So to speak.    ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Allan

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Re: Why Joe Aguirre didn’t expose two boys?
« Reply #29 on: Feb 09, 2006, 09:58 PM »
To whom would Aquirre expose the boys?  If he did expose them, wouldn't he have to explain that he had spied on them?  Also, after he's through watching the boys frolic, he watches Ennis ride off and be an exemplary sheep herder.  He's an awful s.o.b., but there's no profit for him exposing Ennis and Jack, especially since, in spite of their playing around, they appear to be doing a good job.  Allan