Topic: What was Mr. Lee telling us?

[Patriot1]

Hello brothers, sisters and friends,

When Ennis was telling Jack about the two old guys that were killed he said his father may have been the one to do the job.

While Ennis was telling Jack that story we see Ennis, his brother and their father walking to where Earl lay dead.

I couldn't help but think that Mr. Lee was confirming that it was Ennis' father that did kill him. 

Did you notice there was nobody else there!  No sheriff, coroner, cowboys, nobody.  But Ennis' father knew right where to go.  Maybe because he killed him, took his boys to see him and then called he sheriff, if at all?

The only other explanation I can come up with is that Mr. Lee was trying to save production money.  But he could have had at least the sheriff there waiting on the coroner. What would that cost, $50 for an extra for couple of hours?

What's your take?

[rabjr1]

In a lot of places in this country the "coroner" is also the local funeral director.  This is not unusual, the problem with this though is that sometimes a death is listed as natural even though it has murder written all ove rit.  There are probably a lot of very suspicious deaths that have been swept under the rug because of the incompetence or collusion or both of public officials.

That the death scene became a macabre attraction is not unusual even in this day and age nor back then.

[kcristob]

I think that the father did have a hand - or at least inside knowledge on the death of the gay rancher.  And, it's a very vibrant way of showing where Ennis' unconquerable fear of loving another man comes from.  I like the way Ennis says [something like] they were tough old guys.  He had respect for them as a kid.

Without that childhood experience, I'm not convinced Ennis would be any more willing to be with Jack - but ...maybe???

[alicat]

Kcristob,

I also think, even if Ennis had not witnessed that scene, he would've been reluctant to set up home with Jack.  I'm sure seeing such a bloody awful killing and such prejudice would've reinforced his reluctance, but I am not sure if it was the only thing preventing him loving Jack fully.  Ennis was tough, a fighter and would've fought to the death to protect both his love of Jack, and to protect Jack himself.  One thing that came to mind was, surely Ennis was so tough and afraid of noone (physically at least) that he would have stood strong and said 'to hell with it' if physical danger was the only obstacle to them living together.  Just a thought..what do you think?

[scruffy]

That scene is really scary.  I don't know if Ennis' father had anything to do with it but I wouldn't discount it.  Nobody would admit to killing another human being because the law would be forced to step in.  But in a time where many people were dehumanized for being "different" I could see people that were either directly or indirectly involved showing off the corpse like they would show off a prize deer shot in the woods.  This empahsizes how some things can be kept secret in a small community and some things that are known are never openly spoken.

[madisondel]

Kcristob,

I also think, even if Ennis had not witnessed that scene, he would've been reluctant to set up home with Jack.  I'm sure seeing such a bloody awful killing and such prejudice would've reinforced his reluctance, but I am not sure if it was the only thing preventing him loving Jack fully.  Ennis was tough, a fighter and would've fought to the death to protect both his love of Jack, and to protect Jack himself.  One thing that came to mind was, surely Ennis was so tough and afraid of noone (physically at least) that he would have stood strong and said 'to hell with it' if physical danger was the only obstacle to them living together.  Just a thought..what do you think?

We do see more than one time in the movie where Ennis is not afraid to fight.
 I feel that in the beginning, he definitley felt some sort of responsibility to Alma, but that doesn't explain his reluctance after the divorce. Maybe his girls? This is something to ponder!

[alicat]

Madisondel

I think it is also worth more discussion - I am not convinced Ennis would've agreed to a life with jack, whatever the external circumstances.  I think what was restricting him was his internal struggle maybe? BTW, the picture on your profile is one of my favourites..of Jack laying down and looking out onto the landscape. I thought when I saw it it would become an all-time classic scene.  It is unforgettable. 

Alicat

[kcristob]

Kcristob,

I also think, even if Ennis had not witnessed that scene, he would've been reluctant to set up home with Jack.  I'm sure seeing such a bloody awful killing and such prejudice would've reinforced his reluctance, but I am not sure if it was the only thing preventing him loving Jack fully.  Ennis was tough, a fighter and would've fought to the death to protect both his love of Jack, and to protect Jack himself.  One thing that came to mind was, surely Ennis was so tough and afraid of noone (physically at least) that he would have stood strong and said 'to hell with it' if physical danger was the only obstacle to them living together.  Just a thought..what do you think?

It's so hard to know how that event impacted Ennis' life.  But ultimately, no, I don't think he would have been more willing to share his life with Jack - even without that awful childhood event.

[Patriot1]

Ennis was tough, a fighter and would've fought to the death to protect both his love of Jack, and to protect Jack himself.

Of Ennis protecting Jack there is no doubt.  While it would not have been a fight to the death or anything, think of Ennis' reaction to Alma attacking Jack on Thanksgiving.  Ennis became very angry and violent. His unreleased anger over what Alma said carried over to the fight on the street with the truck driver.

Ennis made it very clear, you do not say anything bad about Jack. 

[madisondel]

Madisondel

I think it is also worth more discussion - I am not convinced Ennis would've agreed to a life with jack, whatever the external circumstances.  I think what was restricting him was his internal struggle maybe? BTW, the picture on your profile is one of my favourites..of Jack laying down and looking out onto the landscape. I thought when I saw it it would become an all-time classic scene.  It is unforgettable. 

Alicat

Thank you! I love it, too! It's just so unpretentious and so full of hope! They are so beautiful together!
Thanks for your discussion, it gives us a lot to think and talk about - and that's my favorite past time these days!

[rikcub]

Hello brothers, sisters and friends,

When Ennis was telling Jack about the two old guys that were killed he said his father may have been the one to do the job.

While Ennis was telling Jack that story we see Ennis, his brother and their father walking to where Earl lay dead.

I couldn't help but think that Mr. Lee was confirming that it was Ennis' father that did kill him. 

Did you notice there was nobody else there!  No sheriff, coroner, cowboys, nobody.  But Ennis' father knew right where to go.  Maybe because he killed him, took his boys to see him and then called he sheriff, if at all?

The only other explanation I can come up with is that Mr. Lee was trying to save production money.  But he could have had at least the sheriff there waiting on the coroner. What would that cost, $50 for an extra for couple of hours?

What's your take?

Just more of the Ang Lee magic...he left so many nuances and details for each of us to decide for ourselves...this is just one of them.  As for me I think Ennis's dad did the deed...it just fits perfectly into the story and explains all the internal struggles Ennis has.

[BBBOY]

Ennis and the dead gay rancher................lesson learned. Nothing else to be said. It is a crucial part of the story and the movie. It's the why of Ennis's reaction to living with and loving Jack. Annie has said it in her statements about the story. It is about homophobia in America, and most specifically rural America. It is incredibly brutal and intolerant but like so many other things it can not stop "a force of nature." Have you noticed that the religious right is so afraid of this movie that they have for the most part remained silent for fear that their usual vitriol would only encourage people to go see this remarkable and insightful movie. They see the truth and don't like it.

[jimmypage]

Hello brothers, sisters and friends,

When Ennis was telling Jack about the two old guys that were killed he said his father may have been the one to do the job.

While Ennis was telling Jack that story we see Ennis, his brother and their father walking to where Earl lay dead.

I couldn't help but think that Mr. Lee was confirming that it was Ennis' father that did kill him. 

Did you notice there was nobody else there!  No sheriff, coroner, cowboys, nobody.  But Ennis' father knew right where to go.  Maybe because he killed him, took his boys to see him and then called he sheriff, if at all?

The only other explanation I can come up with is that Mr. Lee was trying to save production money.  But he could have had at least the sheriff there waiting on the coroner. What would that cost, $50 for an extra for couple of hours?

What's your take?

I think that the scene is oneiric, not realistic, it's the child's memory of a  traumatic event.
Everything is filmed from the point of you of young Ennis ( I like that we see his father legs but not his face):
 we see just the dead man because this image was so shocking for him that it's the only thing he can remember.