Topic: 20 years not talking about it?

[wyomingplains]

This is my first line here, and first of all I would like to thank everybody on this forum for great discussions and threads. After I saw the movie, this forum was/is great to "escape" to, I cried for days after I first saw the movie, and it carried on after I read the short story and the screenplay and saw the movie for the second time. In a strange way I can not wait to see it again and again, although it makes me very sad. The best for me would be to forget it, but I can’t… It kind of makes me think, think about what kind of life I would like to live and what kind of person I would like to be. It’s a great movie, the best I have seen in my life. Go Lee, Ledger and Gyllenhaal  :D !

So, I have been thinking about the story and the film a lot.

Over the 20 years Ennis and Jack were seeing each other, they must have been talking about a life together sometimes, they can’t just have talked about it on that last meeting, or what do all you reckon? I mean, as we understand it from the scenes when they had become older and were together, they talked a lot about their present lives, as for example when Jack is talking about how Lureen’s eyes becomes smaller and smaller when she is counting money / calculating etc.

Ennis do love his daughters very much, is this why he can’t or won’t share his life with Jack, in fear of loosing the girls? If you think about it, Ennis got divorced in 1975, and after that he was pretty much single all the way. It would have been possible for him and Jack being together, he only had the girls once a month. Was it just because of fear for society and his own raising (seeing the murder) that stopped him from being with Jack? I know these are very heavy arguments for Ennis to become the way he was, but 20 years! Just seeing each other twice a year... Just knowing this shows how strong their love was. It's amazing.

Thanks for your comments.

[bram]

I think it was pretty much his fear of how society would react to them. I'm sure he was scared of losing what little time he had with his daughters, too. I know of people who lost all contact with their children just because they were gay.

Enduring all that for twenty years really is a testament of how much they loved each other. I know that when I love someone, if they're gone for a week I feel like curling up in a ball and just crying until they get back. Maybe I'm just overly emotional, though. The first time my twin sister moved out of the house, she was only gone for a month, and I swear I almost killed myself. I did nothing but get drunk and become a shut in.

[*Froggy*]

Hello Wyomingplains, welcome and thankx for posting!

Yes I too wonder what our boys must have talked about when they met up. That's one thing I had hoped Ang Lee would show more off.

The time they spent together and what they could have talked about.

Jack had asked once and had received a negative reply from Ennis, maybe he was waiting for Ennis to say something later on. After the divorce, again it's Jack that drives up, hoping to get together with Ennis, and once again Ennis says no.
Poor Jack probably did not want to mention it again, and chose to make dos with the short meetings they had.

Plus Ennis was scared of what might happen, it is quite clear in the short story and movie, more scared to get Jack killed, I think, than himself.

I know these are very heavy arguments for Ennis to become the way he was, but 20 years! Just seeing each other twice a year... Just knowing this shows how strong their love was. It's amazing.

20 years....yes it's amazing!

[jerasjr]

Right, you have to think of the movie in context of time and locale, when the taboos were much, much stronger than they are now.  It would have been so engrained that it was "wrong", that it would have been very hard for Ennis to shake those bonds.  Since we only have glimpses of their lives together, we have to fill in some things, like yes they probably did talk about being together, but maybe not a lot because Ennis has the concept that it couldn't be done without dire consequences.  Having gone through the experience myself, married and finally came out at a later age, have to say even that is a daunting experience, to say nothing about living with another, that would be an entirly different step.

[tpe]

Welcome wyomingplains.   I do love your name...

I think the subject did keep on coming up during the 20 years, in one implied way or another.  The film tells us this much.  Remember the exchange:

Jack:  'Maybe you should get outta there...go some place different...maybe Texas...'

Ennis: 'Texas?....Sure, maybe you can convince Alma that you and Lureen can adopt the girls...' etc.

In this scene the subtext is Jack AGAIN proposing to Ennis in an indirect way that perhaps they should try living together. 

Jack never stopped trying during those 20 years.   I do so love him for that.

[wyomingplains]

Hello and thanks for welcoming me!

You are right about that tpe, maybe they talked about it, not yet talked about it. Not out loud, but in the subtext. Cheezuz, I feel so bad for both of them, Jack never stopped hoping, and Ennis never dared to hope.

[dalemidex]

I'm sure on occasion the subject of making a change was touched upon, but I would guess not as often as one might think.

There was something of an equalibrium driving the status quo in the relationship, pushed on one side by Ennis' fear of being honest and open (especially to himself) about his love for Jack, and on the other side by Jack's fear of losing his dream of having it all with Ennis, if he pushed too hard for a change.

For tangible, hands-on types, Ennis' fear is very real and understandable.

But for big picture, dreamer types like Jack, losing hope, losing a dream, losing the possibility of a happy life with Ennis is just as terrifying as Ennis' fear of the truth.

Were one or the other to push too hard, such as Jack pushing too hard for a change, there was a real chance it all could have come apart.  I think those two opposing fears kept things largely unchanged for all those years.

[vankwok]

I will think of this way. Sometimes there are something you want so much that you could not dare to ask for it, because you could not bear the feeling when you were being turned down. That's why they did not talk about their life so frequently throughout these 20 years. Of coz, the social pressure and Ennis' fear also count into it.

I hope my Eng is expressive enough...

[tpe]

I will think of this way. Sometimes there are something you want so much that you could not dare to ask for it, because you could not bear the feeling when you were being turned down. That's why they did not talk about their life so frequently throughout these 20 years. Of coz, the social pressure and Ennis' fear also count into it.

I hope my Eng is expressive enough...

This is so true.  The things you desire the most are frequently the hardest to ask for -- especially after an initial rejection.

[donnaread]

Hello Wyomingplains, welcome and thankx for posting!

Yes I too wonder what our boys must have talked about when they met up. That's one thing I had hoped Ang Lee would show more off.

The time they spent together and what they could have talked about.

Jack had asked once and had received a negative reply from Ennis, maybe he was waiting for Ennis to say something later on. After the divorce, again it's Jack that drives up, hoping to get together with Ennis, and once again Ennis says no.
Poor Jack probably did not want to mention it again, and chose to make dos with the short meetings they had.

Plus Ennis was scared of what might happen, it is quite clear in the short story and movie, more scared to get Jack killed, I think, than himself.

I know these are very heavy arguments for Ennis to become the way he was, but 20 years! Just seeing each other twice a year... Just knowing this shows how strong their love was. It's amazing.

20 years....yes it's amazing!

Jack tries again and again, only to be blocked by Ennis every time.  The first time is when they're in the hotel and Jack says "What are we gonna do now?"  and Ennis says "I doubt theres anything we CAN do."  Then the time Jack says "It could be like this...just like this, always."
Ennis says "I told you it ain't gonna be like that." Then when Ennis gets his divorce and Jack drives from Texas to Wyoming only to be sent away by Ennis, that's when he's crying and decides to go to Mexico, I would imagine to dull the pain.  Then again when Ennis tells Jack he thinks people are "looking at him like they know"  and Jack says maybe he should get out of there, come to Texas.  It happens again and again over and over.  Finally during their last time together and Jack says "I wish I knew how to quit you!"  And Ennis said " why don't you? Why can't you just leave me alone?" Then Ennis breaks down and there is poor Jack, consoling him again.  I get the feeling that may be why he turned to the other Texas rancher and told his dad they were going to come up to the home place.  He knew Ennis would never embrace their love, and I think with that conversation it finally dawned on Jack that maybe Ennis really would be better off without him.  So very sad. :'(

[Toadily]

Yes to everything, these were guys who didn't watch Oprah or other shows about communication.  I am sure they just shut down their feelings when they felt they had to, Ennis couldn't accept he was gay, or in a gay relationship so he couldn't accept a real relationship with Jack.Remember he was really into denial until after Jack's death, that jolted him awake really.

[The Ultimate Otaku]

Jack never stopped trying during those 20 years.   I do so love him for that.

Tpe, your comment brings tears to my eyes...it's so sad... :'(  I wish they could've lived together!  :'( :'( :'(  Jack tried so hard. But as others have pointed out, you must take into consideration the times. Ennis had good reason to fear. 20 years, these two really loved each other...

[tpe]

Jack never stopped trying during those 20 years.   I do so love him for that.

Tpe, your comment brings tears to my eyes...it's so sad... :'(  I wish they could've lived together!  :'( :'( :'(  Jack tried so hard. But as others have pointed out, you must take into consideration the times. Ennis had good reason to fear. 20 years, these two really loved each other...

The Ultimate Otaku, thanks.  I would want to think that not everything was wasted, as they still got to see each other every now and then in those 20 years.  But persistence is something I love the most in Jack.   He was never satisfied with what they had in those 20 years, but I don't think he ever gave up -- expect perhaps at the very end.  The probable loss of hope in the end -- THAT alone already hints to us that Jack was ready to die.