Author Topic: Jack and Ennis not jealous of women but Ennis livid about Mexico  (Read 77819 times)

Offline smiley

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I have read a lot of the messages on this site but no one has touched on my topic. Ennis and Jake are never threatened about the women in their lives. Ennis even laughs when Jack says he has a "thing" going on with a foreman's wife, but threatens to kill Jake about going to Mexico. I felt it showed more than anything that understood who they were and only another male could come between them.
« Last Edit: Oct 29, 2006, 11:12 AM by chameau »

Offline Toadily

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It's interesting topic though, was it because they both knew they were gay and so a  man was the only real threat?
Or was it cause they still didn't accept it and thus it pushed a button?  Jack seemed to be accepting obviously
so different for him.  For Ennis it might have been a combo of genuine jealousy but also his homophobia.
He couldn't accept in his mind that this was something other than "This thing".
« Last Edit: Oct 29, 2006, 11:14 AM by chameau »
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Offline bram

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He couldn't accept in his mind that this was something other than "This thing".

That's what I think it was. I think in Ennis's head it didn't really have to do with wives or women or anything like that. It was "this thing" that he had going with Jack. If Jack was doing something with another man, then it was no longer their special thing. I'm not able to explain myself very well right now.
« Last Edit: Oct 29, 2006, 11:13 AM by chameau »
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Offline Toadily

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 I think you explained it just right!   :)
« Last Edit: Oct 30, 2006, 08:25 AM by tpe »
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Offline tpe

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Welcome smiley

I do think both perceived other men as threats (as Toadily had suggested above) and women were part of an established societal pattern that expected men to consort with women.

I think it implied that if one of them was involved with a woman, it was only expected on them by a constrictive society.  But if one of them was involved with another man, then THAT was SERIOUS.


Offline jackie62

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recently,in another thread,some  people had chosen -- " truth is sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it " as their fav quote. i think one of threasons this quote is so painful to hear is because jack has just had to lie yet another time to ennis --- i.e.the "foremans wife" . i think part of him couldn't stop himself saying what he really felt.

i think it was hard for jack to accept ennis with anyone.

it had got me thinking what would ennis have done if jack had said " i've got this thing going with a ranch foreman..."???


Offline tpe

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it had got me thinking what would ennis have done if jack had said " i've got this thing going with a ranch foreman..."???

Probably killed him (and himself).  Ennis seemed to be a man of his word.

Offline *Froggy*

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Well I also thought that Jack wasnt too pleased to hear about Ennis seeing a woman (because he probably knew that Ennis was being sincere)...was I the only one who got this impression?
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Offline Toadily

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Well I also thought that Jack wasnt too pleased to hear about Ennis seeing a woman (because he probably knew that Ennis was being sincere)...was I the only one who got this impression?

I sort of did too, I mean Jack says "you ain't found no one else to marry" sort of bitterly.  He would rather they just lived together.
And Ennis can't admit the reason he hasn't is cause of Jack...  It's so sad.
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Offline jackie62

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iI think Jack really did struggle with sharing Ennis.

I think the closeness he needed from Ennis ,  being given to someone else (even as a pale shadow),   hurt him hugely. 
 Its back to the ---" you and Alma --thats a life "  idea.  The fact Ennis and Cassie could do things openly together --- even dance --- would have been like a knife. I

sometimes wonder if Jack asks Ennis will he "marry again"----  to once again try and get an acknowledgement of what Jack means to him .

Its interesting both men dance with the other women in their lives in the movie i.e Cassie ,Lashawna and Lureen  --- and you do get a sense of it looking  and being wrong somehow.
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2006, 04:04 PM by jackie62 »

Offline Toadily

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i think jack really did struggle with sharing ennis.

i think the closeness he needed from ennis being given to someone else (even as a pale shadow) hurt him hugely.  its back to the ---" you and alma --thats a life "  idea.  the fact ennis and cassie could do things openly together --- even dance --- would have been like a knife. i sometimes wonder if he asks ennis will he marry again to once again try and get an acknowledgement of what jack means to him .

its interesting both men dance with the other women in their lives in the movie i.e cassie shawna and lureen  --- and you do get a sense of it looking  and being wrong somehow.

I hadn't thought of that, the dancing thing.  You are right.  I felt with Lureen it was the illusion of romance that she wanted when dancing with Jack at first and note how Jack rebuffs her comments and husbands not dancing with wives when they meet LaShawn and Randall. 
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Offline tpe

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Well I also thought that Jack wasnt too pleased to hear about Ennis seeing a woman (because he probably knew that Ennis was being sincere)...was I the only one who got this impression?

I sort of did too, I mean Jack says "you ain't found no one else to marry" sort of bitterly.  He would rather they just lived together.
And Ennis can't admit the reason he hasn't is cause of Jack...  It's so sad.

Actually, this does make sense.  I guess Jack could have been more jealous about Ennis's relationship with anyone (male or female).  Some of the resentment also peeps out of 'You and Alma, that's a life.'   

The cyclic negation is really very sad.

Offline tpe

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iI think Jack really did struggle with sharing Ennis.

I think the closeness he needed from Ennis ,  being given to someone else (even as a pale shadow),   hurt him hugely. 
 Its back to the ---" you and Alma --thats a life "  idea.  The fact Ennis and Cassie could do things openly together --- even dance --- would have been like a knife. I

sometimes wonder if Jack asks Ennis will he "marry again"----  to once again try and get an acknowledgement of what Jack means to him .

Its interesting both men dance with the other women in their lives in the movie i.e Cassie ,Lashawna and Lureen  --- and you do get a sense of it looking  and being wrong somehow.


You said it before I did!  :)


Offline *Froggy*

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Well I also thought that Jack wasnt too pleased to hear about Ennis seeing a woman (because he probably knew that Ennis was being sincere)...was I the only one who got this impression?

I sort of did too, I mean Jack says "you ain't found no one else to marry" sort of bitterly.  He would rather they just lived together.
And Ennis can't admit the reason he hasn't is cause of Jack...  It's so sad.

Actually, this does make sense.  I guess Jack could have been more jealous about Ennis's relationship with anyone (male or female).  Some of the resentment also peeps out of 'You and Alma, that's a life.'   

The cyclic negation is really very sad.

Yes I agree!
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Offline keren_b

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it seemed to me like they really didn't care about dating other women, probably because they saw the women in their lives as a "cover-up". when Ennis asks Jack if everything's "normal" with him and Lureen, he means that she doesn't suspect the truth. He KNOWS who Jack really loves. he knows that Jack and him is the real thing, Lureen is just a cover story... but what they have is something special. I also think that since Ennis couldn't accept the fact that he's gay, couldn't admit that he was in love with Jack and as said before, prefered to think about it as "this thing", he also couldn't accept the fact that Jack might be gay and might be attracted to other men. he wanted to be the one and only for Jack, as Jack was the one and only for him... he wanted to believe that Jack couldn't have this thing with another man, just like he himself never thought of doing it with another guy. another man is a real threat, it means that Jack is attracted to men in general and not *just* to Ennis, and Ennis can't accept that. the guy is homophobic, whether we like it or not. if Jack is gay, what does it say about Ennis?? he can't deal with that thought.
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Offline Jennis

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i think jack really did struggle with sharing ennis.

i think the closeness he needed from ennis being given to someone else (even as a pale shadow) hurt him hugely.  its back to the ---" you and alma --thats a life "  idea.  the fact ennis and cassie could do things openly together --- even dance --- would have been like a knife. i sometimes wonder if he asks ennis will he marry again to once again try and get an acknowledgement of what jack means to him .

its interesting both men dance with the other women in their lives in the movie i.e cassie shawna and lureen  --- and you do get a sense of it looking  and being wrong somehow.

I hadn't thought of that, the dancing thing.  You are right.  I felt with Lureen it was the illusion of romance that she wanted when dancing with Jack at first and note how Jack rebuffs her comments and husbands not dancing with wives when they meet LaShawn and Randall. 
I wonder why Lashawn said to Lureen "We may have to dance with ourselves, Lureen.Our husbands ain't the least bit interested in dancin',they don't seem to have a smidgin of rhythm between' em!

How did she know they had no rhythm,if they didn't dance?...lol.Just a thought.
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Offline bram

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i think jack really did struggle with sharing ennis.

i think the closeness he needed from ennis being given to someone else (even as a pale shadow) hurt him hugely.  its back to the ---" you and alma --thats a life "  idea.  the fact ennis and cassie could do things openly together --- even dance --- would have been like a knife. i sometimes wonder if he asks ennis will he marry again to once again try and get an acknowledgement of what jack means to him .

its interesting both men dance with the other women in their lives in the movie i.e cassie shawna and lureen  --- and you do get a sense of it looking  and being wrong somehow.

I hadn't thought of that, the dancing thing.  You are right.  I felt with Lureen it was the illusion of romance that she wanted when dancing with Jack at first and note how Jack rebuffs her comments and husbands not dancing with wives when they meet LaShawn and Randall. 
I wonder why Lashawn said to Lureen "We may have to dance with ourselves, Lureen.Our husbands ain't the least bit interested in dancin',they don't seem to have a smidgin of rhythm between' em!

How did she know they had no rhythm,if they didn't dance?...lol.Just a thought.
Jennis.x 

Maybe they had both given lack of rhythm as an excuse before. I use it often.
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Offline BBBOY

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"You been to Mexico, Jack? I heard about what they got in Mexico for boys like you." This is a quote from the screenplay. Ennis is acknowledging Jack's homosexuality and in doing so his own. Annie is more subtle in the story. After Ennis's threat and Jack's retort and, "I wish I knew how to quit you", Annie writes, "Like vast clouds of steam from the thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable-admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears-rose around them." They have each come to a level of self awareness but in the end, "what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." This is such it gets me every time.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline keren_b

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"You been to Mexico, Jack? I heard about what they got in Mexico for boys like you." This is a quote from the screenplay. Ennis is acknowledging Jack's homosexuality and in doing so his own.

I don't know, I had a problem with the "boys like you" part. I always felt uncomfortable with it and now I realize why. Ennis was acknowledging Jack's homosexuality, but was he acknowledging his own? if he did, he should've said "boys like us". by saying "boys like you" it is as if he sees Jack as different from him. I have a problem with this sentence.
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"You been to Mexico, Jack? I heard about what they got in Mexico for boys like you." This is a quote from the screenplay. Ennis is acknowledging Jack's homosexuality and in doing so his own.

I don't know, I had a problem with the "boys like you" part. I always felt uncomfortable with it and now I realize why. Ennis was acknowledging Jack's homosexuality, but was he acknowledging his own? if he did, he should've said "boys like us". by saying "boys like you" it is as if he sees Jack as different from him. I have a problem with this sentence.

i think that he said boys like you because he was upset with Jack, and i think that well he can accept Jack with another woman as everybody had say here already they are the perfect cover for Jack's manliness but a man would mean they could suspect about Jack and jump into the conclussion of Ennis homosexuality it is like adding 1+1  jack having sex with men + people that know it + Fishing trips with Ennis=Ennis is one of Jack's lovers. but when you see the movie Ennis have this face that you know that he is jealous he want Jack just for him and won't let anybody else to mess around and take him away.

Offline keren_b

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oh, he's definitelly Jealous, there's no doubt about that. you can also see it at Jack's parents, when his dad (hate him!) mentions that Jack brought somebody else last spring... just look at Ennis's face, it hurts him so much and he's trying to hide it. Damn, it breaks my heart  :'(
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Offline dalemidex

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While I think Jealousy was a definite part of it, I think a significant -- if not bigger -- part was Jack going to Mexico was a sign that he was indeed queer.  And Ennis was not.   As long as Jack and Ennis was simply "this thing" then Ennis wasn't really a homosexual (or for those who believe Ennis was indeed a straight man, then Ennis wasn't really having a homosexual affair).  But if Jack was indeed queer, then Ennis wasn't just having a one-shot thing with someone like himself, he was having a relationship with a queer.  I see that as a big piece of his rage, and it puts the point on "boys like you".

Sadly, there's a great deal conveyed in the faces of the two men when they sit around the campfire in that last night together.  Every time Jack or Ennis says anything that conforms with normal straight behavior (Ennis putting the blocks to the waitress in Riverton, Jack having the affair with the ranch hand's "wife") Ennis is smiling.  Anytime Jack says anything alluding to the truth of the matter (you ain't found no one to marry, as far as are marriage goes we could phone it in, sometimes I miss you so much i can hardly stand it) Ennis' face goes dark.  Ennis just won't throw Jack even a crumb.

As overwhelmingly sad and tragic as the last 30 minutes of this film is, Ennis came out a better person.  I love the Ennis in the trailer so much more than the Ennis sitting at the campfile with Jack sharing a joint.

Offline Patriot1

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...when his dad (hate him!) mentions that Jack brought somebody else last spring...

Just so you don't remain confused, Jack never brought anyone to his parent's home.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline Patriot1

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While I think Jealousy was a definite part of it, I think a significant -- if not bigger -- part was Jack going to Mexico was a sign that he was indeed queer.  And Ennis was not.   As long as Jack and Ennis was simply "this thing" then Ennis wasn't really a homosexual (or for those who believe Ennis was indeed a straight man, then Ennis wasn't really having a homosexual affair).  But if Jack was indeed queer, then Ennis wasn't just having a one-shot thing with someone like himself, he was having a relationship with a queer.  I see that as a big piece of his rage, and it puts the point on "boys like you".

Sadly, there's a great deal conveyed in the faces of the two men when they sit around the campfire in that last night together.  Every time Jack or Ennis says anything that conforms with normal straight behavior (Ennis putting the blocks to the waitress in Riverton, Jack having the affair with the ranch hand's "wife") Ennis is smiling.  Anytime Jack says anything alluding to the truth of the matter (you ain't found no one to marry, as far as are marriage goes we could phone it in, sometimes I miss you so much i can hardly stand it) Ennis' face goes dark.  Ennis just won't throw Jack even a crumb.

As overwhelmingly sad and tragic as the last 30 minutes of this film is, Ennis came out a better person.  I love the Ennis in the trailer so much more than the Ennis sitting at the campfile with Jack sharing a joint.

I think you and I see this movie the same way.  I never once saw Ennis as being gay.  He was, by strict dictionary definition a homosexual in that he enjoyed and sought sex with someone of his same gender, but gay?....no, I just can not see it.  He didn't go around looking at other men for the purpose of having any kind of relations.  Ang Lee, however said the two boys were gay.  I am not sure he is putting as fine a point on what gay is as I am.  He may think that just because you sleep with a guy that makes you gay.  Not in my book.

Now Jack, he was GAY.  He started cruising Ennis almost the second he got out of his truck!  He cruised the clown, he went to Mexico, he cruised Randall.  I mean he is GAY.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline dalemidex

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I think you and I see this movie the same way.  I never once saw Ennis as being gay.  He was, by strict dictionary definition a homosexual in that he enjoyed and sought sex with someone of his same gender, but gay?....no, I just can not see it.  He didn't go around looking at other men for the purpose of having any kind of relations.  Ang Lee, however said the two boys were gay.  I am not sure he is putting as fine a point on what gay is as I am.  He may think that just because you sleep with a guy that makes you gay.  Not in my book.

Now Jack, he was GAY.  He started cruising Ennis almost the second he got out of his truck!  He cruised the clown, he went to Mexico, he cruised Randall.  I mean he is GAY.



Hehe...I do agree with you on a lot of things and definitely respect your point of view, but actually I see Ennis as gay man.  Before I go into specifics of how I arrived at this thought, let me state:

(a)  Jest because a man sleeps with a guy, that does not necessarily mean he is gay
(b)  Just because a man does not pursue other relationships with men, that does not mean he isn't gay

One last thing before I begin, let me say that this is my belief and conclusion, and while I believe it solidly that doesn't mean it is "truth".

So we know Jack pursues Ennis, and we see other episodes where (at least to many) Jack appears to be trying to hook up with the rodeo clown and ol' Randall.  Jack seems interested in men.  Okay, not a big leap.

In contrast, at first I thought the lack of similar behavior in Ennis showed us that he perhaps wasn't interested in men.  But the more I view the film, the more I think Ennis shows an interest in Jack.  Perhaps one that Jack picked up on.  And the signs of it are, to me, too early to simply attribute to the great force of capital-L  Love that Ennis felt for Jack washing over him.

(1)  Ennis is looks at Jack, from pretty early on, in ways that go beyond a simple "who is this guy?" glances.  More than a time or two.
(2)  Ennis is a polite guy, and maybe the gesture of him ordering soup was only him being nice to Jack and not a sign that he felt a buzz for him.  Okay.  But why doesn't Ennis tell the truth of why he's ordering soup.  A simple "Jack hates beans" would have been honest and simple.  But instead he hides the fact that he's doing something nice for the other guy.  Why?  Would the supply guy have wondered why Ennis was being nice?  Not at all.  Rather inside ENNIS knew he was being nice to Jack because he felt something for him and he felt the urge to hide it. I think that, subconsciously Ennis feels the need to hide that he likes (and I mean likes-likes) Jack.  Think of how an 11 year old acts when they "like" somebody...all self conscious and shy and secretive about it.  I think that's why Ennis not only gets soup for Jack (in spite of liking beans himself) but more importantly he hides that he's doing something nice for Jack for no other good reason.  You don't act all embarassed and secretive if your'e being nice to a new friend.  Nope, Ennis had the hots for Jack.
(3)  The "you may be a sinner but I ain't yet had the opportunity" line is of course a point of debate and discussion.  Is Ennis flirting?  Well, I think that again it's not just in the line but the whole scene.  Sure, maybe Ennis is just admitting to being a virgin.  (And yes, I totally believe that line is about nothing but s e x.  That's what "sin" was in those days to a horny 19 year old man.)  But think of yourself back in younger days admitting virginity to a friend.  Would you look them in the eye and hold that stare like Ennis did?  Nope, nope, nope.  Ennis is flirting, and not playfully, either.  Sersiously.

Were all these things coming out of the growing L O V E Ennis was building for Jack?  I don't think that was primarily it.  Too soon. There was a noteable aspect of desire or even good old fashioned lust there driving this.  If not full and dirty lust, at least the longing and desire that gay (or at least bisexual) men feel for anotherman.
 
Ennis was a man with serious anti-homosexual biases in his rearing and background.  Could love for another man overcome this enough to actually lead him into a homosexual love affair of 20 years with another man?  Perhaps, in spite of the incredible odds against it.  But I just don't think that level of overpowering love was there that soon -- nowhere near early enough and strong enough to drive Ennis actions.  I believe there were other things going on.


So if Ennis was gay, why then did he never do anything like Jack in terms of pursuing another man??  I think Jack happened all too soon for Ennis.  Without someone like Jack and the circumstance that brought them together, Ennis would have not had an experience like this for a long time, if ever.  Maybe, maybe Ennis would have come to grow into himself differently, would have come to terms with himself and his desires.  Heck, maybe that coming to terms would have been ugly and not positive.  But  the relationship with Jack stoped that gradual development possibility dead.  Because Jack happened, Ennis was forced to open his eyes to something in himself that he wasn't ready to see.  He found himself stuck in knowing what he was doing on the one hand and denying what he was doing on the other hand.  Forced to deal with this, he compartmentally split his life into two facets he could deal with but not merge.  Kind of an equilibrium that he couldn't upset without disaster.  For Ennis to admit and act on his homosexual feelings by looking for another man, that would have shattered the facade he had built in himself as a way to cope with the reality of who he was and what he wanted. 


So when it comes down to it I believe Ennis was indeed a gay man, and his actions to wards Jack *before* one could reasonably think the overwhelming force of love overcamethe deep-seated inhibitions of a homophobic straight man.  And he didn't pursue other men like Jack did because that would upset  the delicately balanced facade he created in his mind to cope with who he was.  He created it to cope with his desire for Jack because it came before Ennis was anywhere near ready to deal with it.

Others are absolutely free to disagree, but this is how it plays out to me.
« Last Edit: Mar 25, 2006, 12:33 AM by dalemidex »

matsuki33

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have a question why the name of the thread is Jake no Jack  ??? i think that someone is hoping something!!

well to the topic i read your commentdalemidex and i need thank you for you post it was interesting i disagree in some points but well i just want to say that you maybe right in some points but you indeed have a good point there.

Offline Patriot1

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. . .actually I see Ennis as gay man.

OK then.  So we don't agree after all.  Be that way.   ;D

Maybe if we get another 2000 members then SOMEONE will agree with me.   ;D

What is your definition of a "gay man."

                                                                                 
« Last Edit: Mar 25, 2006, 03:39 AM by Patriot1 »
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

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Offline bubbaluna

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So when it comes down to it I believe Ennis was indeed a gay man, and his actions to wards Jack *before* one could reasonably think the overwhelming force of love overcamethe deep-seated inhibitions of a homophobic straight man.  And he didn't pursue other men like Jack did because that would upset  the delicately balanced facade he created in his mind to cope with who he was.  He created it to cope with his desire for Jack because it came before Ennis was anywhere near ready to deal with it.

Others are absolutely free to disagree, but this is how it plays out to me.



I have to agree with you here....First of all I have heard that Annie herself created Ennis as a gay character...very complex, conflicted and even homophobic but indeed gay...I think the gray area is the distinction (or perhaps addition of) "bi" to the equation......I have grappled with this distinction all of my life....What makes someone bi?

Was Ennis bi because he married and also had sex with his wife? Or was he really gay and not bi because the marriage was a way of hiding from his true self? Are married guys in general (who also are attracted to and may have guy lovers) gay or bi or both? We could say the same about Jake... I think that is probably the root of this entire discussion...and if someone has the answer please let me know.....it pretty much sums up my life...
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Offline keren_b

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First of all, Patriot1, you're right - Jack never brought anyone else to his parents house, he only had plans to but they didn't come out. Thanks for correcting me.

...  I never once saw Ennis as being gay.  He was, by strict dictionary definition a homosexual in that he enjoyed and sought sex with someone of his same gender, but gay?....no, I just can not see it.  He didn't go around looking at other men for the purpose of having any kind of relations.  Ang Lee, however said the two boys were gay.  I am not sure he is putting as fine a point on what gay is as I am.  He may think that just because you sleep with a guy that makes you gay.  Not in my book.

But Ennis didn't just have sex with Jack. I'm sure a lot of straight guys have had homosexual sex experiences with other guys, and that doesn't make them gay. I also don't think that just because you sleep with a guy that makes you gay. but Ennis was in love with Jack, DEEPLY in love with him. and he had so much passion and desire for him, you could clearly see it in the reunion scene, he was so nervous waiting for his lover, and when Jack showed up Ennis just couldn't control his feelings anymore. there was SO MUCH MORE than just sex there. and I don't think Ennis had that strong feelings for any of the women in his life, not with Alma (he describes their relationship as "I'm stuck with what I've got here"), and definitely not with Cassie. I'm not sure that Ennis has ever been REALLY in love with a woman in his life... No, if there was "just sex" here it was with the women, while with Jack the feelings were much deeper.
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Offline Mars

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I guess human sexuality is much more complex than a simple label( gay,straight,bi).
I think we have to remember how Ennis met and knew Jack.
Two souls -aged only 19 y.o.-in a sea of loneliness and in front of the majesty of nature.
The emotional bond who was created between them, motivated also
by their different tempers (the yin and the yang),has thrown them,drunk,
to the first sexual experience for Ennis. It has been Jack who introduced Ennis to sex.
Jack with all his extrovert feeling.In my opinion Ennis has probably an indefinite,double
sexuality( at which degree? don't know) and Jack found the key to open his heart.