Author Topic: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers  (Read 171599 times)

Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #300 on: Aug 01, 2006, 07:29 AM »
I think at the end they had (as the ss says) "torqued" things back enough to where they had been that November would have happened for them.  And so much more might have followed ...  :(

You know, that's something that so many people seem to forget when discussing this - that the short story did actually say that things were back to how they had been before the argument. I think the movie attempts to show this when, despite everything that's been said, Jack goes to comfort Ennis when he breaks down in tears, but then the last shot we see is of Jack's face as Ennis drives away and he looks so defeated. Perhaps it's this shot that makes this discussion so interesting - without it maybe most people would be in the "November would have happened" team.

OT - I don't know if I'm good enough to be in the team, MissRed, but I'm happy to be a cheerleader &**) &**) &**)
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

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He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

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This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #301 on: Aug 01, 2006, 07:40 AM »

OT - I don't know if I'm good enough to be in the team, MissRed, but I'm happy to be a cheerleader &**) &**) &**)

Are you kidding?  After the posts you just made!   ::)  Good enough to be HEAD cheerleader, NoReins ..  &**)   ... and pretty good with a can-opener, too.   ;)

And even though like you I try to keep the short-story and movie separate, as they are two distinct works of art, imo, the story also says that nothing was resolved at the end of this (you can problably quote it exactly, 'cause I know how good you are with it!) and that to me is what is reflected so brilliantly in the last image of Jack, watching Ennis drive away.  Jack's realization that in spite of finally letting out some of what has been eating them both alive for 20 years, at that moment, nothing had really changed.  That would include, to my mind, Jack's continuing to make the drive north, and Ennis continuing to meet him out in the back of beyond.
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #302 on: Aug 01, 2006, 07:48 AM »
From the short story:
"...they torqued things almost to where they had benn, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

And then:

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."

The 'let be' does it for me. He wasn't going anywhere.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

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The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #303 on: Aug 01, 2006, 09:28 AM »
From the short story:
"...they torqued things almost to where they had benn, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

And then:

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."

The 'let be' does it for me. He wasn't going anywhere.

Thanks for that FlwrChild. I couldn't remember the exact passage from the ss.

I do like your interpretation of "let be, let be", and I share it, but I can see how others get that Jack was going to quit Ennis from that passage too. Jack has realised that they've never moved beyond the fact that Ennis doesn't want to think about the fact that he's with a man and it's time to let it be and move on to someone who is comfortable with his sexuality.

Ah jeez - now I'm going round in circles with this ::) :(
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #304 on: Aug 01, 2006, 09:55 AM »
Ah jeez - now I'm going round in circles with this ::) :(

Maybe like Jack and Ennis were going around in circles, trying to reconcile their hearts with their heads?
The beauty of BBM ... it doesn't tell us what to believe but leaves us room to think, and find our own answers.

And of course, since we're all perfectly rational people where BBM is concerned, we're usually able to see the other side of a discussion, even when we may lean toward another ...

(yeah ...I know ...  I don't really buy the "rational" comment myself   ;D   maybe I should have used another description  ... ??    ::)  )
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #305 on: Aug 01, 2006, 10:03 AM »


Wonderful exchange.  Thanks all.  "let be, let be" is my favorite line in the entire short story.  It is at the heart of the topic of this thread.




Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #306 on: Aug 01, 2006, 10:42 AM »
Ah jeez - now I'm going round in circles with this ::) :(

Maybe like Jack and Ennis were going around in circles, trying to reconcile their hearts with their heads?
The beauty of BBM ... it doesn't tell us what to believe but leaves us room to think, and find our own answers.

And of course, since we're all perfectly rational people where BBM is concerned, we're usually able to see the other side of a discussion, even when we may lean toward another ...

(yeah ...I know ...  I don't really buy the "rational" comment myself   ;D   maybe I should have used another description  ... ??    ::)  )

Hell, I'm rational....except when someone argues that Jack was going to quit Ennis at which point I become a lunatic ^*() I'm just too damn protective of what I uphold as a pure love that would have gone on forever...too much of a romantic, I guess.
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #307 on: Aug 01, 2006, 11:51 AM »
Me too, NoReins, me too!
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

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The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #308 on: Aug 01, 2006, 11:57 AM »
Me too, NoReins, me too!

Ditto!     <^(

There are worse things than being too romantic ... soft hearts bring light into the world...  like Jack's does for Ennis  ...  <^(
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #309 on: Aug 01, 2006, 12:30 PM »
Oh that's beautiful MissRed! <^(
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline Rosie

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #310 on: Aug 01, 2006, 01:44 PM »
Boy, am I happy to be reading these posts!  &**)

NoReins,MissisaugaRed, flwerchild, I'M WITH YOU!  O0

Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline lamusica

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #311 on: Aug 01, 2006, 03:27 PM »








"The knowledge that Ennis would not THEN embrace him face-to-face" is the clue to this thread's answer.  Jack knew - AT THE TIME OF THE EMBRACE - that Ennis would not want to admit to himself that he held a man. BUT later on, that changed.  The word "then" is crucial, to me.  It shows that the relationship did expand greatly after the time of that embrace which we know occurred when they were very young ( no gray hair and no lines on their faces).  Surely, by the time of the reunion kiss, Ennis knew damned well he was holding and kissing a man, and he surely was not shying away from that fact.  He went for the kiss gangbusters.
    I'm with all of you who refuse to believe Jack quit Ennis.  By his own words, he couldn't do that.  He said he WISHED he could quit him, but he knew, and we do, too, that he wasn't ablt to do that.  That doesn't mean he may not have become more involved with Randall, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't run when Ennis called.  To me, that's the love part of this whole situation.

quote author=NoReins link=topic=304.msg218270#msg218270 date=1154442538]
From the short story:
"...they torqued things almost to where they had benn, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

And then:

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."

The 'let be' does it for me. He wasn't going anywhere.

Thanks for that FlwrChild. I couldn't remember the exact passage from the ss.

I do like your interpretation of "let be, let be", and I share it, but I can see how others get that Jack was going to quit Ennis from that passage too. Jack has realised that they've never moved beyond the fact that Ennis doesn't want to think about the fact that he's with a man and it's time to let it be and move on to someone who is comfortable with his sexuality.

Ah jeez - now I'm going round in circles with this ::) :(
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #312 on: Aug 01, 2006, 03:46 PM »
I read "Let be. Let be" as an expression of almost resignation - "Well, that's how it is and it's not going to change." The question is who's the "speaker" - is it Jack or the author?The sentence before is Jack's thoughts - "Maybe they'd never got much father than that", the "that " referring to Ennis not wanting to acknowledge it was Jack he held. To me this is Jack saying there was no point in going on thinking about it or trying to change it, becaus that was the situation and " if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."  And in the end I think he would have stood it, as  in the end, even if in a changed relationship, so would Ennis.

If it's the author's comment, the meaning changes to a sort of farewell - it's followed immediately by the passage where Ennis finds out that Jack is dead.

Offline scribe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #313 on: Aug 01, 2006, 06:46 PM »
As a new boy who has only just seen the film and like everyone else here received a real emotional kick in the guts from it, can I offer my opinion.  Apologies if I'm going over old ground but the real genius of BBM is that it can generate and tolerate this amount of examination and informed discussion.  I haven't seen a film before that made me think so deeply. 
I think Jack would have loved Ennis for ever and they would have remained soulmates.  But Ennis can't provide everything that Jack needs - the couple of high-altitude f***cks aren't enough and look like they are going to get fewer.  Jack has found and will continue to find other outlets - Mexico, Randell - and he's taken trouble to ensure that Ennis doesn't find out about this because he knows the reaction it will provoke.  When Ennis asks whether Jack has any other ideas for dealing with the unsatisfactory situation, Jack doesn't say "Yes - lets get a ranch together" he says "I did once" implying that he knows that option is closed off for ever.  So the only future is to carry on as before or "let be" - but for that to happen Ennis would have to accept Jack as a gay man (which has become clear after the "Mexico" exchange between them) and not feel threatened by Jack's other relationships.  I'm not convinced Ennis could have done that and his reaction in referring to "boys like you" suggests problems in the future- so perhaps the scene represents the begining of the end.  The passion between them is as powerful as ever but both are being destroyed in different ways by it and both would like to find some way to end it but can't.    Perhaps they had both got to the stage where it couldn't be fixed and they couldn't stand it either.
I can't eat no cake just now

Offline chameau

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #314 on: Aug 01, 2006, 06:49 PM »
Thank you for this great post scribe and welcome in, I see it's your first time posting here.
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #315 on: Aug 01, 2006, 06:51 PM »
Hi Scribe and welcome.  :) No apologies are necessary- I'm glad you found you're way to this wonderful forum. I'm sure that reading and posting will help you with that "kick in the guts"- I know it did for me.  :c)
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline monicita

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #316 on: Aug 02, 2006, 06:42 AM »
As a new boy who has only just seen the film and like everyone else here received a real emotional kick in the guts from it, can I offer my opinion.  Apologies if I'm going over old ground but the real genius of BBM is that it can generate and tolerate this amount of examination and informed discussion.  I haven't seen a film before that made me think so deeply. 
I think Jack would have loved Ennis for ever and they would have remained soulmates.  But Ennis can't provide everything that Jack needs - the couple of high-altitude f***cks aren't enough and look like they are going to get fewer.  Jack has found and will continue to find other outlets - Mexico, Randell - and he's taken trouble to ensure that Ennis doesn't find out about this because he knows the reaction it will provoke.  When Ennis asks whether Jack has any other ideas for dealing with the unsatisfactory situation, Jack doesn't say "Yes - lets get a ranch together" he says "I did once" implying that he knows that option is closed off for ever.  So the only future is to carry on as before or "let be" - but for that to happen Ennis would have to accept Jack as a gay man (which has become clear after the "Mexico" exchange between them) and not feel threatened by Jack's other relationships.  I'm not convinced Ennis could have done that and his reaction in referring to "boys like you" suggests problems in the future- so perhaps the scene represents the begining of the end.  The passion between them is as powerful as ever but both are being destroyed in different ways by it and both would like to find some way to end it but can't.    Perhaps they had both got to the stage where it couldn't be fixed and they couldn't stand it either.

Scribe, your wonderful post really made me think. You know what, the main reason for my attempts to justify that Jack is leaving Ennis, might be that I'm so afraid of what might have happened if they had just gone on. Torturing each other until they might even be ready to kill each other. It happens often enough: Sane people let go, when they are being hurt too badly, but if love is obsession, people are often incapable of letting go, and that is why people kill each other for love. I would even go further: I have seen that kind of relationship (love and hate, all mixed up, but never able to make a clean cut and start something new) in my parents. And that makes me feel so strongly about letting go. Scribe, your post has opened a whole new area of soul searching for me (in a good way)  ^f^ I love this site and all of you!

monicita
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Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #317 on: Aug 02, 2006, 07:21 AM »


In a sense, Death saved them both.  Death took Jack perhaps at that moment when it was most difficult for him.  I do think he was at the point of "releasing" Ennis.  I don't think he would have survived this in any case.

 

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #318 on: Aug 02, 2006, 07:29 AM »


In a sense, Death saved them both.  Death took Jack perhaps at that moment when it was most difficult for him.  I do think he was at the point of "releasing" Ennis.  I don't think he would have survived this in any case.

 

 :\'(
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline monicita

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #319 on: Aug 02, 2006, 08:40 AM »
Lie in peace, Jack. Our love goes out to you.

monicita
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #320 on: Aug 02, 2006, 08:46 AM »


In a sense, Death saved them both.  Death took Jack perhaps at that moment when it was most difficult for him.  I do think he was at the point of "releasing" Ennis.  I don't think he would have survived this in any case.

 

 :\'(

Double  :\'(   :\'(
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #321 on: Aug 02, 2006, 09:08 AM »


LJN, monicita, and MississaugaRed: I cry with you here.


Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #322 on: Aug 02, 2006, 06:12 PM »
Geez, here I go too. :\'( :\'(
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #323 on: Aug 05, 2006, 08:46 PM »
I just found an interesting saying that I thought I'd share with you all.

"Its better to aim for the stars and hit the lamp post ,than to aim for the lampost and hit the gutter."

Anyone else get the feeling that Jack was aiming for the stars, but ended up in the gutter?  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(




Offline rane99

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #324 on: Aug 05, 2006, 11:14 PM »
It looks like Jack did give up on his wanting to have the sweet life with Jack... but no I am sure he still had feelings for Ennis.... :\'( :\'(
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #325 on: Aug 05, 2006, 11:18 PM »
The sad thing is that Ennis so comprehensively trashed Jack's dreams, over and over. Even if Jack had given up on Ennis ( and I don't think he would have because he's never have stopped hoping) it would be understandable. "Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams," is something he could have said to Ennis many times.

Offline rane99

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #326 on: Aug 05, 2006, 11:28 PM »
The sad thing is that Ennis so comprehensively trashed Jack's dreams, over and over. Even if Jack had given up on Ennis ( and I don't think he would have because he's never have stopped hoping) it would be understandable. "Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams," is something he could have said to Ennis many times.

Yes, Welschwitch, I think you are right here.  Jack the dreamer finally had to face reality. 
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Offline Rosie

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #327 on: Aug 06, 2006, 01:32 PM »
  When Ennis asks whether Jack has any other ideas for dealing with the unsatisfactory situation, Jack doesn't say "Yes - lets get a ranch together" he says "I did once" implying that he knows that option is closed off for ever. 

 :h) Scribe, :)

My opinion is..When Ennis asks Jack whether he has any better ideas, he is trying to shift some of the blame. I think he knows he has really upset Jack. Jack has just told him that sometimes he misses him so bad he can hardly stand it. He must have been able to see the same way that we could that Jack was very down this trip. He's admitted his marriage is in bad shape and he can hardly cope without Ennis and now Ennis is letting him down over August. I think Ennis is trying to say to Jack 'hey this is not my fault'... 'I can't help it, it's the jobs fault'.... 'I can't quit this one'....I'm doing the best I can here' ....  'You gotta better idea?'....(you couldn't do any better).. and Jack could be implying by his answer of 'I did once'.. it is your fault because we wouldn't be in this situation if you had taken my idea all those years ago.....'look where your way has led us'... basically telling Ennis off.  I think he was just getting in the mood as I have said in a previous post in this thread to say some of the things that he really felt. He wasn't in the mood to say  "Yes, lets get a ranch together" Not necessarily meaning that that option is forever closed, but it is certainly closed in this conversation, because Jack is ready to have it out with Ennis and tell him some truths. It wasn't the time to suggest living together. As I said in my previous post things needed to change. Jack can't stand it anymore and he wants to let Ennis know that. Saying "I did once" was the line he used to start that, knowing that was going to lead on to other things being said.   I do think that Jack the dreamer finally had to face reality and that included having it out with Ennis and either changing or ending it as I've said before...Just my opinion (I'm a stubborn little thing aren't I?)........ I just want them to be together  :\'(
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline scribe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #328 on: Aug 06, 2006, 05:54 PM »
I do think that Jack the dreamer finally had to face reality and that included having it out with Ennis and either changing or ending it as I've said before...Just my opinion (I'm a stubborn little thing aren't I?)........ I just want them to be together 

Hi Rosie.  I totally agree that Jack has to face reality at this point.  The flashback (and even more, the short story) suggest to me that he realises that things are never going to be the same as they were 20 years ago and that Ennis is never going to change.  Perhaps he would have adapted to the situation but, as someone else has said, Death intervenes - so we never find out for sure. 

I also agree that the Romantic in all of us wants there to be a happy ending and for Jack and Ennis to live happily ever after - but BBM wouldn't be such a powerful story and film with that happy ending. 

I can't eat no cake just now

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #329 on: Aug 06, 2006, 11:00 PM »
It's as if in these final sequences both are to some degree facing the fact that time as passed and they are no longer the young men who met on Brokeback, that you can't go back to things as they were - meeting only rarely over a long period has allowed them to forget this, in that each new meeting  must have felt like a continuation of the last - but now the illusion is disappearing. They are almost forty and presumably the amount of time they can keep on "going fishing" is finite. What they ar realising, not very consciously, is that life changes you and circumstances; you have to move on.