Topic: Ennis never knew...

[Patriot1]

It just now occurred to me that Ennis never knew that Alma saw him and Jack kissing.  As far as he knew she just suspected and tied the note on the line to see what would happen.

I think that is why he started getting paranoid about others suspecting also and looking at him as if they knew also. And that is why he asked Jack if Lureen ever suspected (as Alma did?).

[bram]

Yeah, it's hard to remember that he doesn't know everything that we know.

[Sunflower79]

good question..I was wondering myself..maybe your right patriot with Ennis being parinoid about others knowing..he did mention when they were sitting around the camp fire about him feeling others knew about them and if they did or got caught at the wrong time they would be killed for loving each other when it was forbideen to do so..And we the audience would see things that he didn't see so thats true also..maybe it was in Ennis nature to be worried and parnoid since he had a troubled past witnessing the death or the two ranch hands when he was younger..and Jack being more of the believer that things could work out and they could live a happy life together..where Ennis was more skeptical of a union working between the two of them.

[shieldmaid]

In the story it seems like Ennis might realize Alma saw them--or at least that possibility is open.  Proulx says something like, "Alma looked out at Ennis's straining shoulders and shut the door" and later, "He was glad the light was dim on the landing but didn't look away from her."  Hmm, now that I say this, I guess it's not really clear.  I always assumed that he thought maybe Alma saw them--after all, she acts pretty strained toward Jack the whole time.  Interesting speculation, though--and a sad commentary on their relationship that she never says anything to him until they're divorced.

[Patriot1]

In the story it seems like Ennis might realize Alma saw them--or at least that possibility is open.  Proulx says something like, "Alma looked out at Ennis's straining shoulders and shut the door" and later, "He was glad the light was dim on the landing but didn't look away from her."  Hmm, now that I say this, I guess it's not really clear.  I always assumed that he thought maybe Alma saw them--after all, she acts pretty strained toward Jack the whole time.  Interesting speculation, though--and a sad commentary on their relationship that she never says anything to him until they're divorced.

But even then she never tells him she saw them kiss.

[dalemidex]

In the story it seems like Ennis might realize Alma saw them--or at least that possibility is open.  Proulx says something like, "Alma looked out at Ennis's straining shoulders and shut the door" and later, "He was glad the light was dim on the landing but didn't look away from her."  Hmm, now that I say this, I guess it's not really clear.  I always assumed that he thought maybe Alma saw them--after all, she acts pretty strained toward Jack the whole time.  Interesting speculation, though--and a sad commentary on their relationship that she never says anything to him until they're divorced.

But even then she never tells him she saw them kiss.

You're very right, Patriot1. Ennis never knew what Alma saw, nor did he know what Aguirre saw.  Jack shielded him from that.  I wonder what difference, if any, it might have made had he known either or both.  Would he have freaked out?  Would things have blown up between him and Ennis?

[stephan]

You're very right, Patriot1. Ennis never knew what Alma saw, nor did he know what Aguirre saw.  Jack shielded him from that.  I wonder what difference, if any, it might have made had he known either or both.  Would he have freaked out?  Would things have blown up between him and Ennis?

Interesting question, dalemidex. Given Ennis's way of resorting to fists in the face of great frustration, he might have thrown Jack out one day in fear of discovery - which for him meant death (the childhood trauma). But he wouldn't have been able to stand it for too long.  :D

[n061857]

Maybe I am being too optimistic,  but maybe he would have eventually felt relieved.  The burden of his secret could be shared?

[cara1158]

Maybe I am being too optimistic,  but maybe he would have eventually felt relieved.  The burden of his secret could be shared?

I was thinking much the same thing... If Ennis knew that both Aguirre and Alma knew the truth... and he's not dead for it... that maybe it was okay, it is possible to live openly and safely with Jack. 

[n061857]

I don't know that he would have lived openly and freely with Jack,  (unfortunately) but at least the shame/guilt he feels at his life being a total lie may have been somewhat alieviated.

[Stephen]

Even Annie Proulx said that Ennis, with the story as is, would live out his life alone and even homophobic!  I think all the details we have suggest that had Ennis known what we know, he would have freaked, and put his relationship with Jack into a deeper closet, or even completely supressed his passion for Jack out of pure fear.

[donnaread]

In the story it seems like Ennis might realize Alma saw them--or at least that possibility is open.  Proulx says something like, "Alma looked out at Ennis's straining shoulders and shut the door" and later, "He was glad the light was dim on the landing but didn't look away from her."  Hmm, now that I say this, I guess it's not really clear.  I always assumed that he thought maybe Alma saw them--after all, she acts pretty strained toward Jack the whole time.  Interesting speculation, though--and a sad commentary on their relationship that she never says anything to him until they're divorced.

I also got the feeling in the story that Ennis knew Alma saw them.  But remember, Ennis in the story is not as repressed as Ennis in the movie. In the movie,  I don't think they were supposed to have known that Alma saw them, but all I can say is she sure made a lot of noise with that door.  Donna

[Stephen]

Interesting observation, Donna. Now I'll have to go back to the story and then to the film! I love this about the forum: we are continually rethinking various details in the story, screenplay, and film.

[ellyjay]

It just now occurred to me that Ennis never knew that Alma saw him and Jack kissing.  As far as he knew she just suspected and tied the note on the line to see what would happen.

I think that is why he started getting paranoid about others suspecting also and looking at him as if they knew also. And that is why he asked Jack if Lureen ever suspected (as Alma did?).

  He knew that Alma knew when she said 'Jack nasty' because in 60's slang 'nasty' meant homosexual or the like.  You 'did the nasty' etc, meaning that you performed an unnatural and unacceptable sexual act.  That's why he was so furious with her in the kitchen at Munroe's house.

[n061857]

This doesn't necessarily mean she saw them.  It could just mean that she had a very strong suspicion supported by evidence - the note on the fishing pole. 

[Patriot1]

It just now occurred to me that Ennis never knew that Alma saw him and Jack kissing.  As far as he knew she just suspected and tied the note on the line to see what would happen.

I think that is why he started getting paranoid about others suspecting also and looking at him as if they knew also. And that is why he asked Jack if Lureen ever suspected (as Alma did?).

  He knew that Alma knew when she said 'Jack nasty' because in 60's slang 'nasty' meant homosexual or the like.  You 'did the nasty' etc, meaning that you performed an unnatural and unacceptable sexual act.  That's why he was so furious with her in the kitchen at Munroe's house.

But Alma never told him she saw the kiss. Ennis just thought she knew because he never REALLY went fishing yet he would come back all perky.

[donnaread]

  He knew that Alma knew when she said 'Jack nasty' because in 60's slang 'nasty' meant homosexual or the like.  You 'did the nasty' etc, meaning that you performed an unnatural and unacceptable sexual act.  That's why he was so furious with her in the kitchen at Munroe's house.

Wow, I didn't know that "nasty" meant homosexual.  Of course I'm sure she knew what was going on when she saw them kissing, then tested it with the note on the line, like someone else said.  But you notice she never confronted him until she was "safely & securely" married to Monroe.  Of course we all know how emotional a woman gets when she's pregnant.  I think she'd "stuffed" it so long it just all came bursting out when she asked him about Jack.  I don't think she meant for that to happen, because she really did sound concerned for him when she said he should get married again.

[ethan]

Wow, I didn't know that "nasty" meant homosexual. 

Me neither. "Nasty" really means homosexual? Well this is off topic.

Great discussion here. I personally don't think that Ennis knew.

[Patriot1]

Of course we all know how emotional a woman gets when she's pregnant.  I think she'd "stuffed" it so long it just all came bursting out when she asked him about Jack.  I don't think she meant for that to happen, because she really did sound concerned for him when she said he should get married again.

She probably was concerned about him being alone.  But Ennis returned her concern by accusing her of being the cause of the divorce.  "Once burned", as if she was the one who burned him?  He was the one that burned her.  It was then that she attacked him and his relationship with Jack.  Just to let him know she was not the cause of the divorce, he was.  But, even in anger, she never told him she saw the kiss.

[Kemmer]

Of course we all know how emotional a woman gets when she's pregnant.  I think she'd "stuffed" it so long it just all came bursting out when she asked him about Jack.  I don't think she meant for that to happen, because she really did sound concerned for him when she said he should get married again.

She probably was concerned about him being alone.  But Ennis returned her concern by accusing her of being the cause of the divorce.  "Once burned", as if she was the one who burned him?  He was the one that burned her.  It was then that she attacked him and his relationship with Jack.  Just to let him know she was not the cause of the divorce, he was.  But, even in anger, she never told him she saw the kiss.

On the face of it, when Alma refused to have sex without "protection", and unless Ennis would "support" any more kids, that was a blow to Ennis' masculinity, yet at the same time perhaps Ennis saw it as a way out of the marriage which was suffocating him and his relationship with Jack.

[Valandil Eluch]

That is right he never knew that Alma saw them kissing and i agree that made him to get paranoid but to be honest it was before that it is more clear in the divorce scene how he acted when Jack arrived and he watched the car like thinking that in taht distance they would notice that.

Well to be honest my dad use the same expresion about getting married he is a widow and when he is asked about that he just says "once burned" i asked him that and he told me that it was enough for him one time all the problems that were involved in marriage he was not willing to have them again. i think taht maybe he tried to refer to that i already knew how you women are in the marriage stuff that i don't want to go by taht again.

[n061857]

I truly believe that Ennis does not know that Alma saw him.  If she had seen him, why not just say she had seen him instead of going into this elaborate story about the fishing pole.

I too think that her anger at the,"Once burned comment," led to the, "Jack Nasty," label.  I do think she had planned on confronting him all through dinner, because her anger was palpable and that she was just leading into it with her questions regarding him getting married again.

[Patriot1]

On the face of it, when Alma refused to have sex without "protection", and unless Ennis would "support" any more kids, that was a blow to Ennis' masculinity, yet at the same time perhaps Ennis saw it as a way out of the marriage which was suffocating him and his relationship with Jack.

I don't think so Kemmer.  Ennis cried in the court room. I don't see him wanting a way out.

[n061857]

George,  This isn't my quote.                - Nancy

[Patriot1]

George,  This isn't my quote.                - Nancy

OOPS!!!  Sorry Nancy.  Just a growing number of senior moments.

[JerBear418720]

Of course we all know how emotional a woman gets when she's pregnant.  I think she'd "stuffed" it so long it just all came bursting out when she asked him about Jack.  I don't think she meant for that to happen, because she really did sound concerned for him when she said he should get married again.

She probably was concerned about him being alone.  But Ennis returned her concern by accusing her of being the cause of the divorce.  "Once burned", as if she was the one who burned him?  He was the one that burned her.  It was then that she attacked him and his relationship with Jack.  Just to let him know she was not the cause of the divorce, he was.  But, even in anger, she never told him she saw the kiss.

Let's be honest - I love Ennis, too, but he had a lot of nerve making that "once burned" remark.  Also, despite everything, Alma was clearly still in love with him, and it took a very big person to not throw "the kiss" right into his face.  You hafta admire her maturity and ongoing concern for Ennis' welfare.  Trust me, I never got a Thanksgiving invitation from MY ex-wife.

[Patriot1]

Of course we all know how emotional a woman gets when she's pregnant.  I think she'd "stuffed" it so long it just all came bursting out when she asked him about Jack.  I don't think she meant for that to happen, because she really did sound concerned for him when she said he should get married again.

She probably was concerned about him being alone.  But Ennis returned her concern by accusing her of being the cause of the divorce.  "Once burned", as if she was the one who burned him?  He was the one that burned her.  It was then that she attacked him and his relationship with Jack.  Just to let him know she was not the cause of the divorce, he was.  But, even in anger, she never told him she saw the kiss.

Let's be honest - I love Ennis, too, but he had a lot of nerve making that "once burned" remark.  Also, despite everything, Alma was clearly still in love with him, and it took a very big person to not throw "the kiss" right into his face.  You hafta admire her maturity and ongoing concern for Ennis' welfare.  Trust me, I never got a Thanksgiving invitation from MY ex-wife.

I am not sure you read what either of us wrote correctly.  Neither one of us are putting Alma down.  I am saying, and have from the very first message in the thread, that Alma never told Ennis about the kiss even though he hurt her so badly by blaming HER for the divorce when it was entirely HIS fault. Even in her rage that night on Thanksgiving she never told him.

As for the Thanksgiving dinner invitation I thought Alma was very uncomfortable with him being there but he had been invited because he was alone and because of the girls.  If it hadn't been for the girls I don't think he would have been invited.