Author Topic: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"  (Read 21534 times)

Offline dirtbiker

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Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« on: Apr 11, 2006, 11:33 PM »
I don't think this topic has been posted before, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss this.  I have already put in my 2 cents in the following thread under dirtbiker888 (highlighted):


Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - Shuggy (Tue Mar 28 2006 14:22:42 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 
UPDATED Tue Mar 28 2006 14:23:22 

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(First, a quick reassurance: I'm not another serial flyby poster asking silly provocative questions for no apparent reason.)

I'm not in the US, so I don't know what this term means exactly. Do there have to be poor blacks in the area for them to be worse off than? Is Lureen not trash because of her father's money? Ennis ends up living in a trailer. Is that defining?

I've just read the comment by Spike Lee about class being the new race in the US. And I gather, by "class" the US means "money" rather than "birth" or "breeding" (Though I gather in NY and SF especially, old money is more respected than new.) All clarification is welcome.



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Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - lauragigs (Tue Mar 28 2006 14:28:20 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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I grew up in the Southern US. The term "White Trash" does refer to lower-economic social class combined with low-class behavior, such as the bikers at the 4th of July.

Obviously, the behavior is more important than the finances. So even if the bikers had money (unlikely in 1967 but quite likely these days), their behavior would fit the term. Ennis, Jack & Alma do not fit the term. 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - lucise (Tue Mar 28 2006 14:33:12 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 
UPDATED Tue Mar 28 2006 14:36:04 

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Some people might consider them white trash, but I just think that they were poor, simple, rural folk. Is that what makes a person trash (white or black)?




'If you sleep through life, you wake up dead.' 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - mars_nr1 (Tue Mar 28 2006 14:42:46 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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No, I agree with you. Behaviour makes a person trash, not just social class or just not having any money.

Follow the white rabbit.... 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - dirtbiker888 (Tue Mar 28 2006 14:43:45 )     
 
UPDATED Tue Mar 28 2006 14:50:11 

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To me, I consider the term appropriate for those who have attitudes, trying to live above their means (and this could also include folks who are not necessarily poor), and milk the social system. So Alma/Ennis would not fit that criteria by any means. They are just humble simple poor folk, living within their means, not expecting any more or less, and never really grumbling about their status. 
 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - lauragigs (Tue Mar 28 2006 14:51:39 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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"And I gather, by 'class' the US means 'money' rather than 'birth' or 'breeding'."

Yes, and that's a shame, although if we went by "birth" that would be as inherently racist as any other criterion.

But again, behavior is the critical thing. You could call poor, simple, rural folk "white trash" but it would be innacurate and unkind. 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - lemonadestand2003 (Tue Mar 28 2006 15:03:46 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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>I grew up in the Southern US. The term "White Trash" does refer to lower-economic social class combined with low-class behavior, such as the bikers at the 4th of July.

I also live in the southern US and the term "white trash" is a behavior. The people you see on Jerry Springer are white trash. 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - jmmgallagher (Tue Mar 28 2006 15:32:26 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 
UPDATED Tue Mar 28 2006 15:38:24 

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(Though I gather in NY and SF especially, old money is more respected than new.)
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Shuggy, this was once an unwritten law--now it is not even a forgotten myth (in New York, for sure).

And like others say above--Ennis and Alma (and Jack, at the beginning of the story) are the ANTITHESIS of 'white trash.'

They are good, hard-working people with little money and few options due to no fault of their own.






"He's trying really hard, that's who Jack Twist is to me." --Jake Gyllenhaal 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - jshane2002 (Tue Mar 28 2006 15:42:33 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 
UPDATED Tue Mar 28 2006 15:47:59 

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The 4th of July bikers are definitely trash. Even more characteristic would be the family that Hillary Swank's character, Maggie Fitzgerald, is from in the movie "Million Dollar Baby." Definitely "Okies" in that picture, the whole family.

Alma might have started out poor but she definitely was striving to be middle class, encouraging Ennis to apply for better paying jobs, wanting to move to town, go out to eat and attend church related social functions. She attains middle class comfort and stability when she marries Monroe. The electric carving knife says it all. It might seem amusing but lots of poorer people find comfort in their small, middle class trophies when they are able to have their own home with a washing machine.They are always afraid of falling back into the poorhouse and living in a trailer the way Ennis ends up.

In Alma's case the middle class life was a way to compensate for her anguish over Ennis. Also she was able to impoverish him by getting all that child support and limiting his visitation rights. Like wise it seems both Jack and Lureen enjoy their affluent lifestyle ( like Jack's watch ) which people acquire to fill some of the gap in the emotional vacuum in their lives.

Also telling about the 70's is the fact that color TV's were still a sign of affluence, only 20 -30 per cent of families had color, especially the early 70's. Having a color set practically meant you were Republican. Note that Monroe has black and white but the Newsomes have arrived. Also note that the Newsomes are probably just one generation from being ranch people. They traded that life for a ranch style house without the manure and mud. Love the Newsome's purple velvet dining room chairs.

I had a grandmother who grew up on a farm in the midwest and couldn't wait to move to a city and wear nice clothes, like Alma. She couldn't believe that young people started wearing jeans in the 70's because to her denim was watch you wear out in the fields or in a barn.


"Boys should watch futball."

 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - andros12 (Tue Mar 28 2006 16:01:52 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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Regarding Brokeback Mountain, my opinion is that Ennis is the foremost representation of the aristrocratic "spirit." Within the maze of his psychological and social conundrums, he attempted to remain "true" to the people he loved in the "best way he knew how to be" until the end; a quality money, education and an elevated social position doesn't necessarily guarantee.

 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - tforster42 (Tue Mar 28 2006 16:43:13 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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I'm in the South, too. I don't think the term "white trash" is necessarily connected to money... though most white trash are generally poor because they are lazy, poorly educated and ill mannered... Whereas, there are many poor people who conduct their lives with dignity and work hard who are definitely not white trash... so, it has more to do with behavior than with money... though there is definitely wealthy white trash, too... like Paris Hilton.. hee hee.... 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - jmmgallagher (Tue Mar 28 2006 16:46:17 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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jshane, such a sharp observation in re: the difference between the televisions in the Monroe/Newsome households, and one which I have not seen mentioned anywhere else--very good!




"He's trying really hard, that's who Jack Twist is to me." --Jake Gyllenhaal 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - Shuggy (Tue Mar 28 2006 17:46:05 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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Thanks for all that. It's really illuminating. Here in New Zealand, we didn't use to have such a big gap between rich and poor, or so many very rich or very poor, and most people were like the simple, hard-working types you mention. (My mother used to make her own washing soap and bottle our fruit, and I can remember when we got our first fridge and, much later, our first washing machine.)

Sadly, we're following America.

"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it" and more at

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - jmmgallagher (Tue Mar 28 2006 18:34:56 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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And America is following Brazil....




"He's trying really hard, that's who Jack Twist is to me." --Jake Gyllenhaal 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - hibbler (Tue Mar 28 2006 19:56:59 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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I really liked the interpretations of what "white trash" means to people in this thread. You guys are right on! "White trash" is definitely more of a behavior and attitude thing, rather than money or the lack of. Jack/Ennis/Alma/the Twists were all hard working people doing the best they could and living with dignity. I don't think anyone would call them white trash. 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - kthstewart (Wed Mar 29 2006 01:22:47 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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Jack, Ennis, Alma, Jack's mother are good people they are working from the time they are only in their teens. I look upon people like Paris Hilton as white trash. There is no excuse for flaunting bad behavior whether you are rich or poor. That is my opinion anyway. 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - naun (Wed Mar 29 2006 05:30:12 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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Thanks, jshane, for this post (and shuggy for asking the question). I've always been intrigued by the part that class plays in the story and how the film's production design (by the largely unsung Judy Becker) plays into that, and it really helps to get the insights of someone who is familiar with the background and has an eye for those things.

Nice bit of observation about the TVs. The programme that is actually on the television at the Monroe household (skating, to classical music) also reflects their middle-class aspirations, of course, as well as continuing the ice/snow motif from that scene.

I have to say that I felt uncomfortable with the portrayal of the family of Hilary Swank's character in Million Dollar Baby. I thought it was a pretty crude bunch of stereotypes.
 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - naun (Wed Mar 29 2006 16:54:42 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 
UPDATED Wed Mar 29 2006 17:05:28 

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The programme that is actually on the television at the Monroe household (skating, to classical music) also reflects their middle-class aspirations, of course, as well as continuing the ice/snow motif from that scene.


Here's a bit more free association of no particular consequence. The music playing is the Capriccio Espagnol by Rimsky-Korsakov. In the scene immediately preceding the Thanksgiving scenes Jack has embarked on a "capricious" act with a Spanish speaker. Meanwhile, Ennis and Alma are skating on thin ice emotionally, trying to maintain surface appearances.

As Basil Fawlty would say, just enjoying myself. 

Re: Are Jack and Ennis and Alma 'white trash'?   
 
 by - nedrazeall (Wed Mar 29 2006 17:08:06 )  Ignore this User | Report Abuse 
 

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Trash doesn't apply to the colored... you call us ghetto. ;0)
 


Offline tpe

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #1 on: Apr 12, 2006, 06:45 AM »
I tend to agree that this term refers to something more behavioural rather than plain economics.  Just because Ennis lived in a trailer in the end of his life does not make him 'white trash'.  Certainly in the early days, both Jack and Ennis were simple ranch boys who lived with their parent/siblings in a way that does not connote the said behavioural pattern.  Their backgrounds came from simple hard-working people, like the majority of the nameless poor that live in and around the American midwest.


Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #2 on: Apr 12, 2006, 05:38 PM »
I agree- being "white trash" is a behavior not economic status.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #3 on: Apr 12, 2006, 07:47 PM »
I agree- being "white trash" is a behavior not economic status.

The phrase is, "Poor white trash."

I think that would be economic.  Don't you?

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

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Offline ethan

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #4 on: Apr 12, 2006, 09:12 PM »
I am sorry ...it doesn't matter whether it is behavioral or economic. It is a horrible racial label.
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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #5 on: Apr 12, 2006, 09:20 PM »
I just hate the term "white trash" in general.  :P

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #6 on: Apr 12, 2006, 09:23 PM »
I am sorry ...it doesn't matter whether it is behavioral or economic. It is a horrible racial label.

Indeed it is.  Many people can't help being uneducated or poor. 
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

cara1158

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #7 on: Apr 13, 2006, 08:38 AM »
I tend to agree that this term refers to something more behavioural rather than plain economics.  Just because Ennis lived in a trailer in the end of his life does not make him 'white trash'.  Certainly in the early days, both Jack and Ennis were simple ranch boys who lived with their parent/siblings in a way that does not connote the said behavioural pattern.  Their backgrounds came from simple hard-working people, like the majority of the nameless poor that live in and around the American midwest.

I have two words to definitively define "white trash" and illustrate that it has nothing to do with money:  BRITTANY SPEARS

Offline tpe

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #8 on: Apr 13, 2006, 08:45 AM »
I tend to agree that this term refers to something more behavioural rather than plain economics.  Just because Ennis lived in a trailer in the end of his life does not make him 'white trash'.  Certainly in the early days, both Jack and Ennis were simple ranch boys who lived with their parent/siblings in a way that does not connote the said behavioural pattern.  Their backgrounds came from simple hard-working people, like the majority of the nameless poor that live in and around the American midwest.

I have two words to definitively define "white trash" and illustrate that it has nothing to do with money:  BRITTANY SPEARS

cara1158, this made me really smile for the first time this morning.  :)


Offline tpe

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #9 on: Apr 13, 2006, 08:54 AM »
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_trash

I find it interesting enough to post here in full.  I hope you don't mind...  :)

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White trash
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

White trash is an American ethnic slur with a social class component. It is comparable to "honky" in that it is targeted toward white people, but also carries an allegation of low social status. To call someone "white trash" is to accuse that person of being bankrupt of cultural endowment. "White trash" is not a demographic group recognized by sociology, and the phrase is generally considered somewhat offensive. Attitudes toward the phrase have softened somewhat in recent years, to the degree that some people describe themselves as "white trash", and there is a genre of rock music known proudly as "white-trash rock", but the phrase is still never found in polite contexts. "White trash" often carries associations with poverty, but not always.

"White trash" are perceived as having crude manners, abnormally low moral standards, and lack of cultured behavior and/or education. This group is "America's poorest and most disparaged and despised category of whiteness" (Berger 2000, p. 284). By the Fussell categorization of social class, most of these people would rank in the low and middle "prole" class. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "white trash" first came into common use in the 1830s as a pejorative used by the slaves of upper-class Southerners, often plantation aristocrats, against poor whites, below even the status of yeomen, who worked in the fields; at the time, it was synonymous with the slurs "sand hiller" and "clay eater"; "white trash" were (hyperbolically) assumed to farm ineptly on poor land and therefore resort to eating clay in order to survive. The term involves both behavioral characteristics (such as mannerisms, lifestyle) and overt racial characteristics (whiteness). The term is widely used across the United States, not only in the South, Appalachia, and Midwest, but also in East and West Coast cities like New York and Los Angeles, as a shorthand to deride others. On the West Coast, however, the term is often used colloquially in its abbreviated form: PWT.

A related stereotype is that of the redneck, though they differ considerably. A rural middle-class person may proudly characterize himself as a redneck (for example, the comedian Jeff Foxworthy uses his "redneck" persona as part of his schtick), but could be genuinely offended if called "white trash." "Trash" is more pejorative, and geographically different. So-called "rednecks" tend to be exclusively rural, whereas "white trash" are just as likely to live in semideveloped or suburban areas.

Details

The nature of the term "white trash," the people to whom it has been applied, and the motivation of people applying the term are studied in connection to popular culture. In full historical context, the term is difficult to define, and any definition must be considered with respect to the context in which the epithet was applied.

Following is a partial list of stereotypes associated with the "white trash":

Poor hygiene.
Poorly kept property.
Ignorance or lack of education.
Clannish, particularly evidenced by racist attitudes.
Laziness and lack of ambition.
Unstable families.
Sexual promiscuity, teen pregnancy, illegitimate children, and incest.
Poor diet, poor health or obesity.
Unhealthy dentition
Unruly behavior in public, including drunkenness, swearing and brawling.
Poverty - particularly dwelling in trailers, or mobile homes (whence comes the term "trailer trash").
Residing in rural, small-town, or working class environments.
Illiterate, or without the ability to speak standard English.
Ownership of aggressive dogs, such as pit bulls or rottweilers.
Musical tastes limited to country and western and heavy metal.
Wearing the mullet hairstyle.
Wearing a type of undershirt called a wifebeater (males).
Driving an older model domestic pickup truck like an El Camino or sports coupe like the Camaro.
Having jobs that consist of some type of physical or menial labor.
Keeping a non-functioning automobile elevated on cement blocks in the yard.
These stereotypes are very similar, if not identical to, racist stereotypes, and the idea of the inherent inferiority of poor white people shares a common intellectual history with the idea of the inherent inferiority of non-white people.

Some people argue that "white trash" is racist, not because it includes the word "white," but because it implies that trashiness is the normal state for non-white people and thus when a white person is trashy it must be specified that the person is white.

A stereotypical view of activities that most associate with white trash are:

Excessive television viewing, especially of televised (predominantly WWF) wrestling, NASCAR and CMT
Shopping almost exclusively at Wal-Mart
Excessive tobacco use (including dip, snuff and chew)
Excessive alcohol consumption, especially cheap domestic beer
An interest in demolition derbies or Monster truck rallies
Viewership of, and appearance on, television shows like The Jerry Springer Show

Discussion

Some commentators argue that the use of the term is provoked by the "confusion of racial identities and stereotypes", and that some white people may use it as a result of a stereotypical comparison with non-white people. However, according to Annalee Newitz, it is "not simply that white 'renters' or 'trash' are acting black. Rather, by behaving in a manner considered indecorous...these...(white trash) are disrupting implicit understandings of what it means to be white". The term "designates ruptures of conventions that maintain whiteness as an unmarked, normative identity" and is used "in racialized contexts where class and race differences become conflated, overlapping rather than remaining clear and distinct". The term "materializes a complicated policing of the inchoate boundaries that comprise class and racial identities in this country" (Newitz 1996, p.46, 47).

However, since the term is the only "white identity which does not view itself as the norm from which all other races and ethnicities deviate" and "because white trash is, for whites, the most visible and clearly marked form of whiteness," this confusion may "perhaps help to make all whites self-consious of themselves as a racial and classed group, to bring...us one step closer to a world without racial division, or, at the very least, a world where racial difference does not mean racial, symbolic, and economic domination" (ibid, introduction).

White trash in the arts

White Trash The Movie A Comedy film set in the hamlet of Ludgershall follows the daily life of 6 teenagers and how they go about dealing with life. The film broke boundaries becoming one of the first feature films to be legally uploaded to the Internet with the 90-minute film available to anyone to download.
In Sherwood Anderson's 1920 novel Poor White, a Southerner who thinks of himself as "poor white trash" makes his way as an inventor in a small Midwestern town.
Tobacco Road (1932) by Erskine Caldwell, set in Georgia during the worst years of the Great Depression, depicts a family of poor white tenant farmers estranged by the industrialization of production and the migration into cities.
Many of the characters in the films of Russ Meyer and John Waters are examples of "white trash" stereotypes, exaggerated for camp value.
Roseanne was a popular U.S. sitcom about a working class, midwestern family in the late 1980s and early 1990s, in which the characters often billed themselves as white trash. In one episode, Dan was arrested, and, when he returned home from jail, Roseanne said that the family was now officially poor white trash and began to dance.
Married... with Children was a popular late 1980s and early 1990s television sitcom about a lower-middle class family outside of Chicago, arguably "white trash".
In Harper Lee's 1960 novel To Kill a Mockingbird, the Ewell family are referred to as "white trash."
White Trash was an American metal group.
The music performer Kid Rock exhibits the look and mannerisms of a working-class male.
The Dixie Chicks' 2002 song "White Trash Wedding" is a comic bluegrass raveup devoted to the subject.
Beavis and Butt-Head, a high-rating MTV animated television program that first aired in the mid 1990s and is still aired internationally, chronicles the life and events of two adolescent underachievers portrayed to be of below-average intelligence. The two characters are meant to portray two "white trash" metalheads living without parental supervision in a middle class, suburban community.
Trailer Park Boys is a highly rated Canadian television program produced by Showcase that features young adult males living in a fictional trailer park. It is a popular example used when referring to "white trash" culture.
A recurring sketch on the sketch comedy/variety television show Saturday Night Live called "Appalachian Emergency Room", which began in 2004, depicts an eponymous hospital emergency room where various misfit-like characters check in for injuries stemming from stereotypical "white trash" activities. [1]
In the Comedy Central series South Park, Kenny McCormick's family is portrayed as the stereotypical American "white trash".
In the film Million Dollar Baby, directed by and starring Clint Eastwood, the family background of Maggie (played by Hilary Swank) fits most of the above characteristics pertaining to the definition of "white trash".
Kalifornia, a 1993 film about the mass-murderer Earl Grace, starrs Brad Pitt and Juliette Lewis as two characters who could be described as "white trash".
Boys Don't Cry, from 1999 depicts a tragedy of love, rape and murder in a stereotypical "white trash" community in Nebraska.
Gummo (1997), a film depicting a range of different townspeople of Xenia, Ohio who exhibited different stereotypes associated with white trash.
8 Mile (2003) is about a white man (based upon the life of Eminem, who also played the lead role) living in a trailer park in Detroit trying to pursue a rap career.
Sideways (2004) depicts an overweight waitress Cammi who has a one-night stand with Jack, a main character. Later on she has make-up sex with her husband in their garbage strewn house within a matter of hours after getting caught.
White Trash Beautiful (2005) is an album and song by Everlast
I May Be White Trash But I Can Still Kick Your Ass (1982) is a song by country artist Willy Joe Arnold.

Similar terms
Cracker
Hick
Hillbilly
Bubba
Pea-pickers
Peckerwood
Redneck
Trailer trash
Wigger
Yokel
Poor White
Honkey
Hoosier (especially in the St. Louis area)

See also
Chav (England)
Dres (Poland)
Ned (Scotland)
Scanger (Ireland)
Bogan (Australia and NZ)
Feral (subculture)
Mullet
Social stratification
Yobbo

Sources
Berger, Maurice (2000). White Lies: Race and the Myths of Whiteness. ISBN 0374527156.
Newitz, Annalee (1996). White Trash: Race and Class in America. ISBN 0415916925.

Further reading
Goad, Jim (1998). The Redneck Manifesto: How Hillbillies Hicks and White Trash Became Americas Scapegoats. ISBN 0684838648.
Hartigan, John Jr (2005). Odd Tribes: Toward a Cultural Analysis of White People. Duke University Press. ISBN 0-8223-3597-2
Mickler, Ernest Matthew (1986). White Trash Cooking (Spiral-bound). Ten Speed Press. ISBN 0898151899
Sullivan, Nell (2003). Academic Constructions of 'White Trash' , in: Adair, Vivyan Campbell; Dahlberg, Sandra L. (Ed.) (2003) Reclaiming Class. Women, Poverty, and the Promise of Higher Education in America. Temple University Press. ISBN 1592130216
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_trash"
« Last Edit: Apr 13, 2006, 08:56 AM by tpe »

cara1158

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #10 on: Apr 13, 2006, 09:23 AM »
Thomas, you are a walking "wikipedia" yourself, we can always count on you to educate and enlighten us.   :-*

Offline tpe

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #11 on: Apr 13, 2006, 09:28 AM »
Thanks cara1158.  I did find the wikipedia entry fascinating.  I know it's not at all a pleasant term, but very curious nonetheless.

I hope I will not be interpreted as being offensive here if I say that some of the stereotypes given in the article are rather funny...




Offline ethan

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #12 on: Apr 13, 2006, 09:29 AM »
Thomas, you are a walking "wikipedia" yourself, we can always count on you to educate and enlighten us.   :-*

Ditto. Thanks, Cindi - thanks tpe for posting this wiki page.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline dirtbiker

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #13 on: Apr 13, 2006, 12:33 PM »
tpe, wonderful edification, thaks  :o

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #14 on: Apr 13, 2006, 03:34 PM »
Thomas, you are a walking "wikipedia" yourself, we can always count on you to educate and enlighten us.   :-*

yup thankx tpe x
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Offline shieldmaid

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #15 on: Apr 13, 2006, 09:39 PM »
Fascinating discussion, thanks especially for the wikipedia entry.  I just wanted to add here that I had some friends in grad school who claimed "white trash" as a mark of pride--they would tell anyone willing to listen that they grew up eating wonder bread and canned peas, and they made what they described as a "white trash meal" every Thanksgiving.  Very different from what we see Ennis and Jack eating at Thanksgiving, since every component of this meal came out of a box or bag and was either brown or white.  :)  I think they were trying to redefine white trash as an empowering term, much like the cultural transformation that has surrounded terms like "queer" or "bitch."
some open space between

Offline JT

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #16 on: Nov 24, 2006, 04:07 PM »
Interesting discussion.  Thanks, Thomas for your detailed research.  I never like to use that term at all.  I think it's racist and look down on people with lower class.  To me, it's equivalent to the word "n****r" or "f*g", and shouldn't be use at all.  There are people out there that would call our boys "w**** t****" but that's just plain ignorance and offensive to me.  But of course, it'll still be use by some people.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #17 on: Nov 24, 2006, 05:30 PM »
For those who have read "To Kill a Mockingbird", the Ewell father in the book is white trash personified - shiftless,ignorant,prejudiced,racist. living in squalor and content to do nothing about it, too lazy to care for or about his children, decetfful, scrounging and occasionally violent. (In the book he is the opposite of the hard-working, honest, respectable black character, Tom Robinson, who is ventaually framed for a rape he didn;t commit and killed while in prison.)

Offline lamusica

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #18 on: Nov 24, 2006, 06:33 PM »
Great list, tpe, defining white trash.
I am born and raised in  the mid-west US, and, to us, poor white trash has no many different meanings -- and a lot depends upon who is using the phrase.  The "Poor" part usually means they have little or no money.  But it's the "trash" part that is arguable.  Ethan is right when he says it's a horrible slur that transcends color, race or creed. While it refers to white people, the "trashiness" part really has to do with the list from Wikipidia, as tpe provided here.
Nowadays, when people say someone is white trash, usually the "poor" is left off.  It can be refering to anyone who the speaker considers substandard -- anyone who they consider less than they are.  That's where the danger comes in.  The girl down the street might be white trash because she dropped out of high school at 15, or because she got pregnant and went on welfare, or she hangs around in the yard with all sorts of other people, men, usually, who the neighbors all consider trashy. I fshe wears revealing clothes, she might be considered trashy, or if she drinks and.or smokes, etc.  Well, you get the picture.  With this definition, anyone could be considered white trash by someone who sets himself above them.  (Bill Clinton could be white trash to the Kennedy family, for instance, or Madonna to Celine Dion.)
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Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #19 on: Nov 24, 2006, 06:44 PM »
This is the first time I've seen this thread.  A lot of interesting comments posted here.  Frankly, this is a term I have always been uncomfortable hearing.  Personally, I don't see that Ennis, Jack, Alma, or Lureen can be fairly labeled as "wt."  They all strived to maintain a certain level of decency in their lives; regardless of their financial and educational status.

I am somewhat intrigued as to how the use of this phrase has changed over the years.  It doesn't seem to carry the same social weight as it did years ago.  The same can be said for the casual use of the "N" word within the younger African-American community.  My understanding of the social origins of both phrases make it very difficult for me to listen to either phrase.  They both go through me like a knife.  Nothing would make me happier than to have both phrases (and similar phrases among other demographic groups) completely disappear.  I think there are better and less offensive phrases to choose from.

Sorry for the rant...some subjects just bring this side of me out of the closet! ;D
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #20 on: Nov 25, 2006, 04:04 AM »
I so agree with you CSC. No human being is "trash" every life has worth regardless of social status or race. But I am not  one  to think that these awful lables will completly go away.  We can only have hope. There's still unfortunatly  a large segment of society out there  who are still close minded. To them Ignorance is bliss.

 Webster's dictionary describes "trash" as "anything worthless and useless"This does'nt describe anyone I know.
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Offline stephan

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #21 on: Nov 25, 2006, 04:17 AM »

 Webster's dictionary describes "trash" as "anything worthless and useless"This does'nt describe anyone I know.

Excellent comment, aintfoolin:^^)

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #22 on: Nov 25, 2006, 05:31 PM »
As fr as the N word is concerned, it's a problem in a way because over here some black kids use it of themselves to one another. When I first heard them doing it I said, "What would you do if I called you a n****r?" and they said that would be fine with them. They seemed to treat it as a sort of affectionate term, as in "Hi, you old n****r". I'd have liked to ask if the tone of voice/situation where it was used made it pejorative in certain contexts but they obviously thought I was a bit odd making an issue of it.

I don't think the same could be said about "white trash" which I can''t ever see as having a complimentary or even casually humorous use.

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #23 on: Nov 25, 2006, 05:50 PM »
Sorry to disagree here a little folks, but to me the term has always been a way of turning back on a certain group of people the hate, ignorance, sexism and racism they wallow in. It's not a term I use loosely, but when I do I'm not calling these people worthless, I'm just calling them on their appalling view of life. Oddly, it usually seems to fall on deaf ears, which tells you even more about what some people are like.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #24 on: Nov 25, 2006, 06:18 PM »
Well, that chimes in with the way it's use in "Mockingbird" - the white trash character there is ignorant, racist, sexist and vicious.
« Last Edit: Nov 26, 2006, 05:07 PM by welshwitch »

Offline lamusica

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #25 on: Nov 25, 2006, 09:28 PM »
This is the first time I've seen this thread.  A lot of interesting comments posted here.  Frankly, this is a term I have always been uncomfortable hearing.  Personally, I don't see that Ennis, Jack, Alma, or Lureen can be fairly labeled as "wt."  They all strived to maintain a certain level of decency in their lives; regardless of their financial and educational status.

I am somewhat intrigued as to how the use of this phrase has changed over the years.  It doesn't seem to carry the same social weight as it did years ago.  The same can be said for the casual use of the "N" word within the younger African-American community.  My understanding of the social origins of both phrases make it very difficult for me to listen to either phrase.  They both go through me like a knife.  Nothing would make me happier than to have both phrases (and similar phrases among other demographic groups) completely disappear.  I think there are better and less offensive phrases to choose from.


I agree 100% with your points here, CSC.  I was discussing  this concept with a friend this afternoon and we agreed that anyone can be considered white trash by anyone who sets himself above the other person -- whether financialoy, morally, intellectually, etc.  Therefore, it is derogatory to anyone to have this term applied to them because it means there are some people in this world who think they are better than others.  This is always  the root of serious societal problems.
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Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #26 on: Nov 25, 2006, 09:50 PM »
I agree 100% with your points here, CSC.  I was discussing  this concept with a friend this afternoon and we agreed that anyone can be considered white trash by anyone who sets himself above the other person -- whether financialoy, morally, intellectually, etc.  Therefore, it is derogatory to anyone to have this term applied to them because it means there are some people in this world who think they are better than others.  This is always  the root of serious societal problems.

Thank you lamusica.  These terms serve no purpose for anyone.  There is no way I could apply the "wt" term to any of the primary characters.  As imperfect as they were, they all tried to achieve something important in their lives.
A reminder Brokies...there is no known cure for PBS.  It's merely managed.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #27 on: Nov 26, 2006, 05:10 PM »
But implicit in that statement is the underlying assumption that people who don't attempt to achieve anything may be classes as w/t.

It has, as far as I'm concerned, nothing to do with imperfection - we're all imperfect in one way or another.

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #28 on: Nov 26, 2006, 06:27 PM »


Thank you lamusica.  These terms serve no purpose for anyone.  There is no way I could apply the "wt" term to any of the primary characters.  As imperfect as they were, they all tried to achieve something important in their lives.

There is no way any of the primary characters could be considered WT for your stated reason CSC, but, as Welshwitch pointed out, people who make no attempt to better themselves and in fact wallow in their condition certainly have earned the title IMHO
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: Are Ennis, Alma, & Jack considered "white trash?"
« Reply #29 on: Nov 26, 2006, 06:38 PM »
Perhaps my earlier statement didn't come across as intended.  When I used the term imperfect I was referring to their flaws...the normal ones we all have.  I just didn't see anything about these characters that pointed to a lack of concern regarding the directions of their lives or how they are perceived by others.  Often, the people I have seen who were labeled "wt" cared little about doing something positive with their lives.  Granted there were other factors included in their behavior too.  I just find this particular characteristic the most sad.
A reminder Brokies...there is no known cure for PBS.  It's merely managed.