Author Topic: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler  (Read 115519 times)

Offline camom

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #60 on: Feb 05, 2006, 12:29 PM »
camom: I remember Ang Lee in an interview with Charlie Rose said that Jack was murdered in the book but he wanted to keep the "murder" ambiguous... He didn't say why but I think partly because he doesn't want to shock the audience too much into turning them off.

Well, except Passions of the Christ... Despite its violent graphic depictions, it didn't turn a lot of Christians off though...

Ah, yes, Passions.  Well, that's different, you see, because seeing the suffering of Christ is both a joy and atonement for Christians--that is, they see and appreciate his sacrifice all the more.  That's a very basic tenent for conservative Christians.  It's all about Christ Died for Your Sins.  My personal approach is to study and attempt to emulate how He lived--his compassion and love for all--and therefore we are to be soldiers for social justice.  There are churches out there that follow this concept, but sadly, not enough of them.  I am proud to belong to the one church in our area that is loosely known as the "church that's lost its way and we must pray for them," lol.  No one's gonna tell US what to think!

I know many, many conservative Christians.  I won't even approach the BBM subject with them; I'm afraid I'll completely blow my cork.  So I support the movie and AP with my dollars (very, very important statement to society!) and talk it up to the people I know who have open minds. 

Hmmmm...the subject of this post was supposed to be what Ang Lee said about murder...got a little off topic.  The story implies it was murder, but it never really comes right out and says it.  I really do think we're supposed to be left with an uneasy feeling of "what was it, really?"  All it says is that Ennis knows it was the tire iron--but our boy is pretty confused about a lot of things, isn't he?  I don't think what Ennis knows is a statement of fact.  Does anyone know what AP says about it?  Has she ever come right out and said it was murder?  Whether it was or wasn't, whether we're supposed to know or not, I don't think it diminishes the message one bit. 

camom

Offline rane99

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #61 on: Feb 05, 2006, 12:46 PM »
... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.

Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible?  Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire?  From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
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JerBear418720

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #62 on: Feb 05, 2006, 02:14 PM »
... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.

Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible?  Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire?  From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
Someone help me out here...

I think what we end up with is that the whole blown tire story is so contrived and unlikely, you know it didn't happen.  Jack was murdered.

Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #63 on: Feb 05, 2006, 02:17 PM »
... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.

Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible?  Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire?  From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
Someone help me out here...

I think what we end up with is that the whole blown tire story is so contrived and unlikely, you know it didn't happen.  Jack was murdered.

JerBear - I thought too that her answer was to contrived and "convenient" to explain Jack's death so she wouldn't have to tell the truth. Somewhere deep down, she couldn't reconcile that either.
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Offline camom

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #64 on: Feb 05, 2006, 04:17 PM »
... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.

Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible?  Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire?  From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
Someone help me out here...

I think what we end up with is that the whole blown tire story is so contrived and unlikely, you know it didn't happen.  Jack was murdered.

JerBear - I thought too that her answer was to contrived and "convenient" to explain Jack's death so she wouldn't have to tell the truth. Somewhere deep down, she couldn't reconcile that either.

On the other hand, what an odd accident to contrive.  Not out of the realm of possibility (boy, did AP do her research!), but not an everyday accident, either.  Why didn't she just say he drove his truck into a ditch?

camom

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #65 on: Feb 05, 2006, 04:27 PM »
On the other hand, what an odd accident to contrive.  Not out of the realm of possibility (boy, did AP do her research!), but not an everyday accident, either.  Why didn't she just say he drove his truck into a ditch?

camom

too easy..AP wanted her readers to react...to ask themselves questions...Plus come on, our Jack could not have died in a car accident...it would have been so unfair (hope you understand what I mean)
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Offline Italian_Dude

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #66 on: Feb 05, 2006, 05:15 PM »
Im not going to read other peoples answers, he was killed like it showed, I can't believe otherwise or else the film for me would be ruined because that was one of the most emotional moments for me,

so YES he was killed

*plugs ears to any who disgree*  LA LA LA LA LA


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Offline chameau

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #67 on: Feb 05, 2006, 05:20 PM »
Quote
Im not going to read other peoples answers, he was killed like it showed, I can't believe otherwise or else the film for me would be ruined because that was one of the most emotional moments for me,

I must confess, on my third viewwing I closed my eyes.  Couldn't stand it.

On the fourth I was able to go trough it but the audience was so crappy, I was not as much concentrated as the previous times.

Annie is vague about this...

Ang Lee sticked to Anne, I'm glad he did. 

I guess Ennis is convinced Jack was killed.
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Offline gjz24

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #68 on: Feb 05, 2006, 05:31 PM »
were they the murders? I saw two red-neck guys in a garage, it's not shown on the film but in the trailer.

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #69 on: Feb 05, 2006, 05:34 PM »
were they the murders? I saw two red-neck guys in a garage, it's not shown on the film but in the trailer.


The kind of flashbak Ennis has, when he thinks about Jack's death shows at least 5 men! We will have to wait for the DVD!
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


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JerBear418720

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #70 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:25 PM »
... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.

Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible?  Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire?  From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
Someone help me out here...

I think what we end up with is that the whole blown tire story is so contrived and unlikely, you know it didn't happen.  Jack was murdered.

JerBear - I thought too that her answer was to contrived and "convenient" to explain Jack's death so she wouldn't have to tell the truth. Somewhere deep down, she couldn't reconcile that either.

Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #71 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:31 PM »
Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.

Sadly true!
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


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Offline cybernaut

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #72 on: Feb 05, 2006, 07:10 PM »
Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.

Even though the story is set in remote country towns, I hope everybody knows that homophobia exists even in the big cities. There are times when I have been called out, "Phucking Asian Faggot", "Chink/Gonk", even though I haven't experience any violence... The name callings do leave me a chilly sense of something bad is going to happen. :-\
But I guess there are idiots everywhere...
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Offline chameau

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #73 on: Feb 05, 2006, 07:37 PM »
Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.

Even though the story is set in remote country towns, I hope everybody knows that homophobia exists even in the big cities. There are times when I have been called out, "Phucking Asian Faggot", "Chink/Gonk", even though I haven't experience any violence... The name callings do leave me a chilly sense of something bad is going to happen. :-
But I guess there are idiots everywhere...

Same here in Gay friendly Montreal, was called "tapette" (fagot), just replied "so what?"
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Offline camom

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #74 on: Feb 06, 2006, 01:03 AM »
On the other hand, what an odd accident to contrive.  Not out of the realm of possibility (boy, did AP do her research!), but not an everyday accident, either.  Why didn't she just say he drove his truck into a ditch?

camom

too easy..AP wanted her readers to react...to ask themselves questions...Plus come on, our Jack could not have died in a car accident...it would have been so unfair (hope you understand what I mean)

No, I didn't mean he actually died in a car accident, I meant why didn't Lureen say that he did, instead of that odd explanation of an accident that could have occurred, but was very bizarre?  Tire rim accidents like that did happen, but very few of them.  Why would she make up something like that?  On the other hand, the way she explained it over the phone sounded like she was reading a teleprompter.  But then, people who are grieving (and I think Lureen was grieving, for Jack, or her lost hopes. or something) act really strangely sometimes. 

camom

Offline francis.shim

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #75 on: Feb 06, 2006, 04:21 AM »
Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.

Howdy.

Agreed, JerBear, murder seems consistent with the theme on first glance.

But the movie/short story takes us much further than that... hence, the *purposeful* ambiguities that Annie Proulx and the screenplay writers (Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry).

Remembering that this masterpiece of a movie/short story is a work of fiction we the audience can only speculate and form our own conclusions from the clues *purposefully* left in the plot line; however, as we have all seen... it still leaves lots of room as to *WHO* murdered Jack Twist.

As I have explained in an earlier post... we can, however, reach a more *serious* and more implicit conclusion to the following questions:

    If Jack Twist was murdered, *WHY* did the killers kill him?
    *WHAT* killed Jack Twist, the love of Ennis Del Mar's life?
    *WHAT* mutilated the love between Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar?

No matter how we look at the death of Jack Twist and his relationship with Ennis Del Mar, we have known the answer all along.  It is precisely why Annie Proulx wrote the short story in the first place.  It is precisely why Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry kept any explicit reasons ambiguous.  It is why we the audience find this event so tragic:  it is as a result of homophobia.

The short story leaves us with that compelling feeling that this is wrong.

Our response then should be *HOW* do we make this right?

... and when I think of our poor tragic Jack and Ennis, as fictional as they are... I can only cry, realizing how helpless I feel for them.  If I can feel for these fictional characters, then I can feel for someone real, like Matthew Sheppard, a young gay man killed in Wyoming, just because he was gay.  The only hope that we can garner from this is to try and somehow help our society and ourselves from letting this happen as best we can.  Even if it means starting with just remembering.

Peace,
Frank

Offline Rod

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #76 on: Feb 06, 2006, 09:35 AM »
I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.

1.    When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live.  The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2.    There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3.    I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4.    I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack.  I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5.     I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her.  Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off.  That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called.  This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been.  She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.

So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.


Hi Lamar, the more I think about it and also after reading your analysis, I am convinced that Jack was killed as the quick flash in the movie suggested. Thanks for your detailed insights.



Though they didn't follow the book exactly, in the book Lurleens father was already dead at this point, so couldn't have had Jack killed.

Offline cybernaut

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #77 on: Feb 06, 2006, 09:57 AM »
    If Jack Twist was murdered, *WHY* did the killers kill him?
    *WHAT* killed Jack Twist, the love of Ennis Del Mar's life?
    *WHAT* mutilated the love between Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar?

On the same note, why did high-school dropout (who later died in injuries), shoot so many people, especially people inside a gay bar?
I always have the view that you cannot combat irrationality with rationality. I agree that there is order in chaos but somehow its always the exception rather than the norm.

If you believe that homophobic is rational, maybe we can solve the problems. In my view however, homophobic is irrational derived from irrational sources like the Bible (Is anything rational about faith?), society perception of being a man and so on.

That's why Ennis said, "If you can't fix it, you got to stand it." He quickly knew that there is no easy answers for this one. To publicly declare their love in which their love maybe rational, but people will see two men in love is a taboo. Ennis is well aware of the consequences for this one.

I have learnt over time that people's perceptions is hard to change. Unless there is an army of like-minded people to challenge the status quo, that poster-boy is going to pushed into the slaughter house.

Well, what's my point? Maybe I am adding a sideview of the situation. I would like to think that Jack was killed because of "homophobia" but what triggered the killing maybe doesn't make sense anymore. One life is taken away because of hate. That's one of the consequences of irrationality.
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Offline francis.shim

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #78 on: Feb 06, 2006, 02:41 PM »
    If Jack Twist was murdered, *WHY* did the killers kill him?
    *WHAT* killed Jack Twist, the love of Ennis Del Mar's life?
    *WHAT* mutilated the love between Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar?

On the same note, why did high-school dropout (who later died in injuries), shoot so many people, especially people inside a gay bar?
I always have the view that you cannot combat irrationality with rationality. I agree that there is order in chaos but somehow its always the exception rather than the norm.

If you believe that homophobic is rational, maybe we can solve the problems. In my view however, homophobic is irrational derived from irrational sources like the Bible (Is anything rational about faith?), society perception of being a man and so on.

That's why Ennis said, "If you can't fix it, you got to stand it." He quickly knew that there is no easy answers for this one. To publicly declare their love in which their love maybe rational, but people will see two men in love is a taboo. Ennis is well aware of the consequences for this one.

I have learnt over time that people's perceptions is hard to change. Unless there is an army of like-minded people to challenge the status quo, that poster-boy is going to pushed into the slaughter house.

Well, what's my point? Maybe I am adding a sideview of the situation. I would like to think that Jack was killed because of "homophobia" but what triggered the killing maybe doesn't make sense anymore. One life is taken away because of hate. That's one of the consequences of irrationality.

No, your quote is not a side view... remember even just remembering is just a good start.  As irrational as the "sources" of these "forces of nature" are, I do not disagree with your assessments... maybe the problem *IS NOT* indeed rational... so what if we were to "stand it" then it can only mean things like to "forgive" and to contirbute to being a part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem; however, the story does offer its own "suggestions": it has set self-determination against such forces... so in a way, it does ask us to allow each and every one of us "leeway" to determine for ourselves our place in the scheme of things... as irrational as that may be.

As for your opinion, that we cannot combat irrationality with rational means... well, that does depend on whether you consider the complexity of human emotions as irrational.  Remember we have an emotion as a signal to some event so what I believe you consider "irrational" is in fact a high degree of complexity in a cause-and-effect series of events, alebeit, human events.  The problem lies in the fact that we as human beings see ourselves as separate from one another and, hence, we claim that we do not know what the other is feeling, however, with empathy, patience, listening, honesty... things that Jack and Ennis shared with each other... we can experience the glue that binds all of us: love.

Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)

Offline Titus

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #79 on: Feb 06, 2006, 03:38 PM »
I don't think even Annie Proulx knows how Jack died.  I've read somewhere (can't find it now) that she intended to be vague so that the reader had to decide for themselves.  Unfortunately, due to the volume of interest and her current work, annieproulx.com isn't responding to questions.  It's a mystery and it disturbs us, and so it should.  Titus.
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Offline cybernaut

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #80 on: Feb 06, 2006, 09:44 PM »
we claim that we do not know what the other is feeling, however, with empathy, patience, listening, honesty... things that Jack and Ennis shared with each other... we can experience the glue that binds all of us: love.

Thanks Frank for being so articulate. Would you believe that human events are irrational as well?
Despite what Jack has done over 20 years, hoping and waiting, he still couldn't get Ennis over to his side. That's what I find perplexing about the two of them.

Perhaps the attributes you have suggested: empathy, patience, listening, honesty, might indeed encourage the person to think rationally. What I understand is not everybody functions and see logic the same way.

That's what I said to my partner:
Most could see and ONLY stop at 1, some can see 2, some think that 3 is crazy, and 4 is definitely falling off the cliff.
One doesn't need to be highly educated or highly IQed to fulfil that statement.

However I guess that's the beauty of irrationality, it allows us to be humans using emotions to guide us in terms of affection, love, compassion. At the same time, it can also be destructive when rage, anger and fear kicks in.
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Offline camom

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #81 on: Feb 06, 2006, 11:15 PM »
I don't think even Annie Proulx knows how Jack died.  I've read somewhere (can't find it now) that she intended to be vague so that the reader had to decide for themselves.  Unfortunately, due to the volume of interest and her current work, annieproulx.com isn't responding to questions.  It's a mystery and it disturbs us, and so it should.  Titus.

I agree with you; I really don't think she knows.  All the unanswered questions makes the story that much more powerful, IMO.

camom

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #82 on: Feb 06, 2006, 11:22 PM »
Camom - I agree with you that's what makes the story powerful is the open ended questions that prompt us to think, explore, destruct, construct, create, define, etc. I hope this story becomes mandatory reading in high schools across America.
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Offline chameau

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #83 on: Feb 07, 2006, 12:17 AM »
Camom - I agree with you that's what makes the story powerful is the open ended questions that prompt us to think, explore, destruct, construct, create, define, etc. I hope this story becomes mandatory reading in high schools across America.

And that came from a teacher.. Am I wrong Cody?
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Offline francis.shim

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #84 on: Feb 07, 2006, 12:36 AM »
Thanks Frank for being so articulate. Would you believe that human events are irrational as well?
Despite what Jack has done over 20 years, hoping and waiting, he still couldn't get Ennis over to his side. That's what I find perplexing about the two of them.

Perhaps the attributes you have suggested: empathy, patience, listening, honesty, might indeed encourage the person to think rationally. What I understand is not everybody functions and see logic the same way.

That's what I said to my partner:
Most could see and ONLY stop at 1, some can see 2, some think that 3 is crazy, and 4 is definitely falling off the cliff.
One doesn't need to be highly educated or highly IQed to fulfil that statement.

However I guess that's the beauty of irrationality, it allows us to be humans using emotions to guide us in terms of affection, love, compassion. At the same time, it can also be destructive when rage, anger and fear kicks in.

In a way, you just answered your own questions... you yourself have just divvied up emotions into two camps: ones that binds us and ones that tear us apart.  As you said, it does not take a genius to figure something like that out... so it is a universal truth for us.  Secondly, your reference again to irrationality... again, I invite you to re-examine the meaning of irrationality and rationality... it is not quite the same as the sense of "logic" versus "emotion".  I would prefer to use simpler terms like "direct" and "indirect".  So when I see you say "irrationality", I understand that you mean highly indirect and complicated... hence, you cannot make heads or tails out of it; but I am unclear as to whether this is precisely what you mean in the way you use the word "irrationality".

Peace,
Frank

Offline cybernaut

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #85 on: Feb 07, 2006, 03:50 AM »
Frank: You caught me spot on.

One example of "irrationality" in my sense would be something like Ennis refusing to acknowledge his love for Jack time and time again. We know his fears, maybe in his time. In our era it seems odd that when love presents to Ennis over 20 years, he doesn't have the courage to say it until it was too late. To me, it may seem that Ennis is just being irrational, especially the part when Ennis shrugged Jack away when the two girls are around. Then he brings about a lot of excuses to shrug him away. Why could Ennis bring Jack around, sit around and chat and so on? If I am Jack, I would certainly couldn't understand what's going on and I suspect he did, except that he knew that "it wasn't time".

Would you think its the wrong interpretation or I should simplify this further?

I hope the readers hasn't been bored by all these. This is how I see Brokeback on a deeper level. Maybe I was trying to find a solution for Ennis to accept Jack but the way he was brought up, that really seem impossible and hence my statement:
You cannot combat irrationality with rationality. So my next question would be, should Jack be better off moving on?
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Offline francis.shim

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #86 on: Feb 07, 2006, 10:42 AM »
One example of "irrationality" in my sense would be something like Ennis refusing to acknowledge his love for Jack time and time again. We know his fears, maybe in his time. In our era it seems odd that when love presents to Ennis over 20 years, he doesn't have the courage to say it until it was too late. To me, it may seem that Ennis is just being irrational, especially the part when Ennis shrugged Jack away when the two girls are around. Then he brings about a lot of excuses to shrug him away. Why could Ennis bring Jack around, sit around and chat and so on? If I am Jack, I would certainly couldn't understand what's going on and I suspect he did, except that he knew that "it wasn't time".

Would you think its the wrong interpretation or I should simplify this further?

I hope the readers hasn't been bored by all these. This is how I see Brokeback on a deeper level. Maybe I was trying to find a solution for Ennis to accept Jack but the way he was brought up, that really seem impossible and hence my statement:
You cannot combat irrationality with rationality. So my next question would be, should Jack be better off moving on?
Interesting... I just want to clarify first before I give my opinion.

Again, you have shown that you know why Ennis does not bring Jack around or closer to sit around and chat... in particular, when Jack visited breathlessly after Ennis' divorce.  Ennis was afraid that his girls would find out that their daddy was gay.  That was a label Ennis did not want to live with, because he has seen the grisly death of a gay rancher from childhood days.  He did not want to terrify his girls.  He did not want to die.  He was afraid.  The question we have to ask is "Is this irrational?".  In my book, it is not.  Ennis has a right to his emotions, his protectiveness of his girls and his self-preservation.  The next question is "Is he irrational in shrugging Jack away?"... well, given that he was afraid, again, in my book, it is a rational way of handling the situation although it was at the cost of sending his true love away.  In this case, it was a sacrifice... an uneasy compromise knowing that he can still get to see Jack now and then as well as to keep his illusion of the supportive father.

Now, if I have understood you correctly... you are saying instead of applying rationality... what if Ennis re-acted "irrationally", that is... what if Ennis hugged and kissed Jack right in front of the girls and told them that Jack has been his true love for all these years?  The problem I have here is two-fold: first, is this really all that "irrational" and second, is this really going to solve Ennis' dilemma?  Let us say that Ennis did just that... then we can say that Ennis did it because he wanted Jack to be finally in his life and to share the fallout of his love with the girls.  In my book, I have to say he has a valid reason for doing that... he loves Jack.  It is rational.  The problem that we are seeing is that there are many ways for someone to act... many choices regardless of whether the choices are rational or irrational.  Ennis was a very stoic, hard-working and conscientious man... his decision making reflect that culture.  His actions reflect the homophobic fears that he has been raised with... and, hence, he is acting rationally given the circumstances.  He is rational.  Perhaps we can say that his father's fears/hate of the gay rancher was irrational and placed that homophobia in Ennis... but I suspect you can keep following a line of reasoning to see that fear/hate has a rational thread.  The problem is we do not know enough.  Second, if Ennis did behave irrationally would it solve his dilemma... again, it really depends on many other things... for all we can guess, it may raise even more problems than it solve.
 
I have to cut this short... but I hope you get my drift...

Peace,
Frank

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #87 on: Feb 07, 2006, 11:21 AM »
Frank: I see your POV. I come from a different generation where the gay rights have been fought for vigorously and has achieved a certain status in terms of legislation. Thus for the younger folks unfamiliar with that turbulent past would definitely find it difficult to understand the constant "throw back and forth with Jack"... I suspect AP in wanting to connect with the younger audience, she made Jack as the free-minded spirit - "I want to achieve my goals and dreams" in contrast with Ennis' "society has expectations of me as a form of self-sacrifice". Ennis being the third kid probably doesn't help change his mindset too.

Following your line of reasoning, the scene that was so odd was the blatant kiss initiated by Ennis on the staircase. I mean what was Ennis thinking? If you have constituted that as one-time irrational thingy, I guess the writings on the wall - If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it.

However I am getting where you are suggesting - the circumstances and life education that would form the rules of one's decision-making.
Suppose if Ennis and Jack were to break society rules and own a nice cow and calf ranch together, I know its a risk both would have to take but would you think its worth it?
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Offline francis.shim

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #88 on: Feb 07, 2006, 03:15 PM »
Following your line of reasoning, the scene that was so odd was the blatant kiss initiated by Ennis on the staircase. I mean what was Ennis thinking? If you have constituted that as one-time irrational thingy, I guess the writings on the wall - If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it.

Ennis was drinking a bit and he really, really was excited at seeing a lover that he has not seen for 4 years!!!  Sometimes being a human being means that we follow our heart and not our head... so Ennis decided to follow his heart in that instant... I think given the circumstances... it was the most human thing that he had allowed himself to do, but at a huge cost to his marriage with Alma.  In fact, it was that cost that probably added to his guilt of loving Jack; hence, giving Ennis more reasons to keep Jack at a distance.  Tragic, yes... but understandable.

Quote
However I am getting where you are suggesting - the circumstances and life education that would form the rules of one's decision-making.
Suppose if Ennis and Jack were to break society rules and own a nice cow and calf ranch together, I know its a risk both would have to take but would you think its worth it?

... and that is both Ennis' and Jack's decision to make: "do we risk everything else for our lives together"?  Jack was ready, but Ennis was not... and we cannot assign blame to either of their reasoning, because it simply reflect the time and place that they lived in... and it is in this helplessness that we the audience feel towards Jack's and Ennis' situation that makes the story just that much more powerful.  Tragedy found in the effects of rural homophobia on the lives of those who live within its grip... it is not meant to be a happy situation, because homophobia is destructive and our poor Jack and Ennis could not fix it so they were ruthlessly forced to stand it.

Peace,
Frank

Offline TJ

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #89 on: Feb 07, 2006, 03:16 PM »
I see this from the published 1997 Dead Line, Ltd edition of the story that Jack was not dead at all.

   
Quote
The old man spoke angrily. "I can't get no help out here. Jack used a say, 'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, 'I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.' He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin and help me run this ranch and bring it up. Then, this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass."

Where I come from in the NE corner of the Great Southwestern United States, NE Oklahoma to be exact, when one is talking in the fall or winter months and he says "this spring," his not talking about the past spring but the one which is coming.

It was apparently in middle or late October 1983 when Ennis arrived at the John C. Twist place near Lightning Flat; but, Ennis had been with Jack in the middle of Spring, May to be exact in 1983.

So, I say that Jack still has plans of going back to the homeplace. We might not even know whether Jack's folks knew that Ennis was sexually attracted to Jack or the opposite.

We also have to note that Jack's mother just ignored everything that her husband said, too.

I say that Jack did not die at all. Ennis Del Mar saw no proof whatsoever of Jack being dead. He only believed what he heard. He did not see a tombstone in Childress, Texas and he did not see the remainder of "Jack's ashes" in Lightning Flat, either.

Mr. Twist's reason for not letting go of Jack's ashes was that they did not exist in the first place.

(Ennis) is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream . . . lets a panel of the dream slide forward . . . it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.