Topic: Does anyone hear "Sorry"?

[boslthrman]

On a friend's advice, I played the BBM DVD with the subtitles on...was surprised how much of the original dialogue I had missed. 

But there's one key moment where I wonder if something has been added into the film - on that important second night, when Ennis enters the tent, the subtitles have him saying, "Sorry."

Think about that for a sec - it really throws the scene and their connection in a new light. Ennis is apologizing for being such a jerk earlier on the mountain. Jack soothes his face and tells him, "it's all right," which you can hear.

but Ledger's lips don't move here and I can't hear him say the line. One friend has suggested that perhaps those doing the subtitling worked from another script or scene take. Another says he CAN hear it. What about you folks?

[Patriot1]

On a friend's advice, I played the BBM DVD with the subtitles on...was surprised how much of the original dialogue I had missed. 

But there's one key moment where I wonder if something has been added into the film - on that important second night, when Ennis enters the tent, the subtitles have him saying, "Sorry."

Think about that for a sec - it really throws the scene and their connection in a new light. Ennis is apologizing for being such a jerk earlier on the mountain. Jack soothes his face and tells him, "it's all right," which you can hear.

but Ledger's lips don't move here and I can't hear him say the line. One friend has suggested that perhaps those doing the subtitling worked from another script or scene take. Another says he CAN hear it. What about you folks?

boslthrman I think there is a whole thread where this was talked about that might give you some insights.  If after reading it you still have questions, put your question in that thread and we can go from there.

Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=593.0

[TJ]

Maybe someday we can see this on a TV network where they use closed captions in place of the subtitles. Then we can READ what the actors SAID in the movie itself.

[Patriot1]

Maybe someday we can see this on a TV network where they use closed captions in place of the subtitles. Then we can READ what the actors SAID in the movie itself.

Closed Captioning, subtitles and language translations are not nearly as good as the original.  Too often whole sentences are changed to fit in the screen.

[TJ]

Maybe someday we can see this on a TV network where they use closed captions in place of the subtitles. Then we can READ what the actors SAID in the movie itself.

Closed Captioning, subtitles and language translations are not nearly as good as the original.  Too often whole sentences are changed to fit in the screen.

While that is sometimes true, it also depends on whom is hired to put the words in the closed captions. Some closed caption services are reputable enough to quote word for word what the speakers actually say.

[Patriot1]

Maybe someday we can see this on a TV network where they use closed captions in place of the subtitles. Then we can READ what the actors SAID in the movie itself.

Closed Captioning, subtitles and language translations are not nearly as good as the original.  Too often whole sentences are changed to fit in the screen.

While that is sometimes true, it also depends on whom is hired to put the words in the closed captions. Some closed caption services are reputable enough to quote word for word what the speakers actually say.

I have seen court room scenes where everyone is caught up in the moment and everyone is yelling or talking all at the same time.  Even the most reputable CC service can not keep up with it all so they post a shortened version.

And then, also, the words have to be in the script. If an actor adlibs the service can miss the whole thing.  Especially in Brokeback Mountain where things were said that are not in the published screenplay AND were said so softly you have to jump through hoops to hear them.  I watched the movie more than 60 times before using headphones.  When I did use them I was shocked at how much I had not heard.  Like at the Twist home, I saw Ennis walk out of the front door, stop, turn to Mrs. Twist and i saw his lips move but heard nothing.  With headphones I heard what he said. 


Or, like when Ennis gets his postcard to Jack back marked DECEASED.  I heard him grunt but only with the headphones. 

[edgar]

Pointing out the somewhat obvious here, but...

We all know Jack says "It's all right."

Some people think they hear someone say, "Sorry."

IF (and I don't really remember) but IF Jack says "it's all right" twice, notice that  a whispered " 's all righ.." (beginning and ending muffled/lost) sounds a lot like "Sorry."

So we might be hearing Jack both times. Two all rights, no sorrys.

 

[Patriot1]

Pointing out the somewhat obvious here, but...

We all know Jack says "It's all right."

Some people think they hear someone say, "Sorry."

IF (and I don't really remember) but IF Jack says "it's all right" twice, notice that  a whispered " 's all righ.." (beginning and ending muffled/lost) sounds a lot like "Sorry."

So we might be hearing Jack both times. Two all rights, no sorrys.

 

I am going to repeat what I already posted somewhere else on this forum.  Ennis comes into the tent and kneels down.  After jack takes his hat, Jack puts his hand along side of Ennis' face.  The cameras switches to Jack's face.  At this point I hear Jack say something that sounds like come here and they start the kiss.  The kiss is over *fans himself* and I hear "I'm sorry....I'm so sorry."  Then I hear Jack say "It's alright"  and nod his head as he says it.  Then the boys lay back and we see Ennis experiencing intimate passion for the first time in his life. It is so beautiful I feel like I am intruding each time I watch.

Every time I see this question come up I go to the film and verify that is exactly what I have heard and, it is. I would bet on it I am so sure. I even made an audio file of it available for others to listen to but I don't think it was downloaded more than 4 times.  Yet everyone said I didn't hear what I heard.

Now, this is unscripted dialog as far as the published screenplay goes.  It is possible that Ennis is apologizing to Jack for the saliva after the kiss.  Who knows?  But I don't think so. I think it was planned by the boys...and maybe Ang Lee.

[NoReins]

I am going to repeat what I already posted somewhere else on this forum.  Ennis comes into the tent and kneels down.  After jack takes his hat, Jack puts his hand along side of Ennis' face.  The cameras switches to Jack's face.  At this point I hear Jack say something that sounds like come here and they start the kiss.  The kiss is over *fans himself* and I hear "I'm sorry....I'm so sorry."  Then I hear Jack say "It's alright"  and nod his head as he says it.  Then the boys lay back and we see Ennis experiencing intimate passion for the first time in his life.

I'm still convinced that Ennis says sorry too - sometimes I hear it once, sometimes twice, but I do hear it. Lots of possible reasons for Ennis being sorry - being rough the night before, ignoring Jack in the morning, pulling away the first twice Jack tries to kiss him? Personally, I think it's mainly the last one with a little bit of "sorry, I don't really know what I'm doing, help me" thrown in....and that makes sense in lights of Jack saying "s'alright" then easing Ennis down beside him and holding him.

It is so beautiful I feel like I am intruding each time I watch.

Totally agree with that - but it's so seductive you just have to keep watching.

[Valandil Eluch]

i heard that sorry but it is so low that i have to raise the volume up 100 and be next to the TV to listen it

[xvbbJ]

Another says he CAN hear it. What about you folks?

Hear that for the first time. Why would Ennis apologize to Jack? Or maybe he is sorry because he can't control his attraction for Jack (Ennis being homophobic), a "sorry" addressed to his dead father ?

[Valandil Eluch]

Another says he CAN hear it. What about you folks?

Hear that for the first time. Why would Ennis apologize to Jack? Or maybe he is sorry because he can't control his attraction for Jack (Ennis being homophobic), a "sorry" addressed to his dead father ?

it could be a little of all but it could also be that he is sorry for the fact he can't control his feelings towards him and he gave him that awful look and that he called him queer.

[xvbbJ]

Hm, I can't hear it at all and don't even see the reason why Ennis would apologize, as for the fight on the mountain, Jack hit him first and Ennis' gesture seemed kinda defensive... Jack's "'s alright" - can't hear that either, but I have a copy and the sound's not that great - doesn't make much sense, or maybe he's saying 's alright like soothing some inexperienced man.

[Patriot1]

I am going to repeat what I already posted somewhere else on this forum.  Ennis comes into the tent and kneels down.  After jack takes his hat, Jack puts his hand along side of Ennis' face.  The cameras switches to Jack's face.  At this point I hear Jack say something that sounds like come here and they start the kiss.  The kiss is over *fans himself* and I hear "I'm sorry....I'm so sorry."  Then I hear Jack say "It's alright"  and nod his head as he says it.  Then the boys lay back and we see Ennis experiencing intimate passion for the first time in his life.

I'm still convinced that Ennis says sorry too - sometimes I hear it once, sometimes twice, but I do hear it. Lots of possible reasons for Ennis being sorry - being rough the night before, ignoring Jack in the morning, pulling away the first twice Jack tries to kiss him? Personally, I think it's mainly the last one with a little bit of "sorry, I don't really know what I'm doing, help me" thrown in....and that makes sense in lights of Jack saying "s'alright" then easing Ennis down beside him and holding him.

It is so beautiful I feel like I am intruding each time I watch.

Totally agree with that - but it's so seductive you just have to keep watching.

Hell yes! I ain't taking my eyes off of that beautiful scene!!!   :D

[Patriot1]

Hm, I can't hear it at all and don't even see the reason why Ennis would apologize, as for the fight on the mountain, Jack hit him first and Ennis' gesture seemed kinda defensive... Jack's "'s alright" - can't hear that either, but I have a copy and the sound's not that great - doesn't make much sense, or maybe he's saying 's alright like soothing some inexperienced man.

No, the fight was at the end. LOOOOOONNNGGGG after the 2nd night in the tent.  Here, listen to NoReins.  She has reiterated some very good reasons:

Lots of possible reasons for Ennis being sorry - being rough the night before, ignoring Jack in the morning, pulling away the first twice Jack tries to kiss him? Personally, I think it's mainly the last one with a little bit of "sorry, I don't really know what I'm doing, help me" thrown in....and that makes sense in lights of Jack saying "s'alright" then easing Ennis down beside him and holding him.

[Patriot1]

i heard that sorry but it is so low that i have to raise the volume up 100 and be next to the TV to listen it

Yes Carlos, that is one of the things that bothers me about this movie.  If Ang Lee didn't want these things in the movie why didn't he just cut the sound out.  If he did want them in the movie why did he make it so you had to turn the volume up so high you would blast the people in the next county/province out of their homes just to hear them.

Very strange.  But very much there.

[bubbaluna]

the I'm sorry line is one that I heard at very viewing of the movie (I saw it eight times) in the theatre....I never doubted but could never figure WHo was saying it and why..having the DVD just reinforces it,,,the line is definitely there!! Just why Ennis says it (and why his lips don't move) we will probably never know....we DO know that Jack says It's allright


Now the OTHER line(s) everyone talks about from the FIRST tent scene I cannot hear at all...(jack's F*** me line)....that one eludes me

[NoReins]

i heard that sorry but it is so low that i have to raise the volume up 100 and be next to the TV to listen it

Yes Carlos, that is one of the things that bothers me about this movie.  If Ang Lee didn't want these things in the movie why didn't he just cut the sound out.  If he did want them in the movie why did he make it so you had to turn the volume up so high you would blast the people in the next county/province out of their homes just to hear them.

Very strange.  But very much there.

I wonder if the idea was to increase the effect of the intimacy between them? As you said earlier, Patriot, it sometimes feels like you're intruding when you watch the SNIT, so maybe it's only right that you can't hear every word loud and clear? It's like when Jack turns his head into Ennis's hair during the motel scene and whispers about redlining it all the way - it's more effective because it's almost like confessional.....

Just my take, mind, but I'd be interested to see if anyone else agrees.

BTW - and totally OT - this is my 100th post, in just eight days. A colleague has just suggested that I need therapy - she might be right, but I believe that's what I've found here

[keren_b]

I wonder if the idea was to increase the effect of the intimacy between them? As you said earlier, Patriot, it sometimes feels like you're intruding when you watch the SNIT, so maybe it's only right that you can't hear every word loud and clear? It's like when Jack turns his head into Ennis's hair during the motel scene and whispers about redlining it all the way - it's more effective because it's almost like confessional.....

Just my take, mind, but I'd be interested to see if anyone else agrees.

BTW - and totally OT - this is my 100th post, in just eight days. A colleague has just suggested that I need therapy - she might be right, but I believe that's what I've found here

I agree that these murmured whispers between them definitely increase the intimacy. I don't know who's idea it was to add them, but it was right in place. I think this scene is my favorite scene in the movie, it's so tender and beautiful it takes my breath away every time.

And about you finding a therapy here - YOU BET!!! I don't know what I would've done without this place and all the wonderful people here, probably would've lost my sanity by now...

[tpe]

On a friend's advice, I played the BBM DVD with the subtitles on...was surprised how much of the original dialogue I had missed. 

But there's one key moment where I wonder if something has been added into the film - on that important second night, when Ennis enters the tent, the subtitles have him saying, "Sorry."

Think about that for a sec - it really throws the scene and their connection in a new light. Ennis is apologizing for being such a jerk earlier on the mountain. Jack soothes his face and tells him, "it's all right," which you can hear.

but Ledger's lips don't move here and I can't hear him say the line. One friend has suggested that perhaps those doing the subtitling worked from another script or scene take. Another says he CAN hear it. What about you folks?

boslthrman I think there is a whole thread where this was talked about that might give you some insights.  If after reading it you still have questions, put your question in that thread and we can go from there.

Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=593.0

Would there be objections if I merge this thread with the previous one (above)?

If I receive no objections this morning (my time ), then I will merge them...

[xvbbJ]

No, the fight was at the end. LOOOOOONNNGGGG after the 2nd night in the tent.

- shoulda got my coffee first before posting in a rush ! (yes, I've seen the movie - many times )

As for being rough the night before, I got the impression that wasn't someone wanting to hurt another one, but passion, and that Jack didn't understand it wrongly. Ignoring Jack in the morning? Maybe Jack was expecting something like that Ennis not being the (emotionally) articulate kind and inexperienced anyway as far as homosexual sex goes, from Ennis' pov: He might, of course, have thought that was something he needed to apologzie for, if he was thinking at that time. Pulling away twice before kissing: Is that something that would prompt Ennis to say "sorry" in such an intimate moment when his mind was probably reeling from various sensory informations and emotion? Well, maybe that's just the moment you'd say something not really thinking about it... However, there isn't that much importance to that "sorry" in the movie (imo).

[xvbbJ]

Now the OTHER line(s) everyone talks about from the FIRST tent scene I cannot hear at all...(jack's F*** me line)....that one eludes me

Nah, you gotta be kidding... It eludes me, too - but maybe I'm deaf.

[edgar]

Okay, now that people have replied, I guess the "sorry" that some people hear is not just another " 's all right" by Jack.

In that case, I have another theory, and it goes along with Jack's "f*** me" and Ennis's "I love you," as well as Jack's "sorry."

In each case, these are unscripted lines that were added by the director/actor as motivational cues. They are not necessarily meant to be heard--they are meant to be felt and observed. Sometimes when an actor acts, he or she has a "motive" for each important speech or scene. For example, when Heath embraces the shirts in the last scene, saying, "I swear," he (or Lee) has told himself that the fundamental motivation behind the scene is his deep love for Jack. So he's trying really hard to get that love across, and (not even intending it to be audible) exhales the words "I love you" as he's acting out that thought.

Likewise with the tent scene: Heath got it in his head that he's supposed to be very humble, very apologetic as he enters. He is projecting this through his demeanor, and he (consciously or uncosciously) breathes the phrase "I'm sorry" as part of his acting.

I'm not going to get into Jack's motivational thinking during the FNIT.   

There is a technical name for these added lines that help with the feeling/motivation. In stage acting, they are generally understood to be said under one's breath so as to be inaudible to (the vast majority of) the audience.

Now I can't remember that technical name.... But I've convinced myself that's what these "phantom lines" that some hear are.

[NoReins]

Hmm, I dunno, Edgar. I think if the lines are spoken (or whispered) and not scripted then it was just Heath and Jake ad-libbing, saying something that they felt was appropriate at that moment and, as I said above, bringing more intimacy to the scenes by whispering.

Also, you're getting confused between the moment when Ennis finds the shirts (and hugs them and maybe breathes "I love you") and the last scene when he says "Jack, I swear..."

[Patriot1]

I wonder if the idea was to increase the effect of the intimacy between them? As you said earlier, Patriot, it sometimes feels like you're intruding when you watch the SNIT, so maybe it's only right that you can't hear every word loud and clear? It's like when Jack turns his head into Ennis's hair during the motel scene and whispers about redlining it all the way - it's more effective because it's almost like confessional.....

Just my take, mind, but I'd be interested to see if anyone else agrees.

BTW - and totally OT - this is my 100th post, in just eight days. A colleague has just suggested that I need therapy - she might be right, but I believe that's what I've found here

I don't know NoReins.  I guess I could understand that if it were lower than the rest but still audible without raising the volume.

Congrats on your 100th.  Yes, you come here to Dr. Ethan's therapy clinic.  But, there ain't no cure for this disease.  It has to cure itself...if it ever does.

[Patriot1]

On a friend's advice, I played the BBM DVD with the subtitles on...was surprised how much of the original dialogue I had missed. 

But there's one key moment where I wonder if something has been added into the film - on that important second night, when Ennis enters the tent, the subtitles have him saying, "Sorry."

Think about that for a sec - it really throws the scene and their connection in a new light. Ennis is apologizing for being such a jerk earlier on the mountain. Jack soothes his face and tells him, "it's all right," which you can hear.

but Ledger's lips don't move here and I can't hear him say the line. One friend has suggested that perhaps those doing the subtitling worked from another script or scene take. Another says he CAN hear it. What about you folks?

boslthrman I think there is a whole thread where this was talked about that might give you some insights.  If after reading it you still have questions, put your question in that thread and we can go from there.

Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=593.0

Would there be objections if I merge this thread with the previous one (above)?

If I receive no objections this morning (my time ), then I will merge them...

I got no problem with it Thomas.

[Patriot1]

Okay, now that people have replied, I guess the "sorry" that some people hear is not just another " 's all right" by Jack.

In that case, I have another theory, and it goes along with Jack's "f*** me" and Ennis's "I love you," as well as Jack's "sorry."

In each case, these are unscripted lines that were added by the director/actor as motivational cues. They are not necessarily meant to be heard--they are meant to be felt and observed. Sometimes when an actor acts, he or she has a "motive" for each important speech or scene. For example, when Heath embraces the shirts in the last scene, saying, "I swear," he (or Lee) has told himself that the fundamental motivation behind the scene is his deep love for Jack. So he's trying really hard to get that love across, and (not even intending it to be audible) exhales the words "I love you" as he's acting out that thought.

Likewise with the tent scene: Heath got it in his head that he's supposed to be very humble, very apologetic as he enters. He is projecting this through his demeanor, and he (consciously or uncosciously) breathes the phrase "I'm sorry" as part of his acting.

I'm not going to get into Jack's motivational thinking during the FNIT.   

There is a technical name for these added lines that help with the feeling/motivation. In stage acting, they are generally understood to be said under one's breath so as to be inaudible to (the vast majority of) the audience.

Now I can't remember that technical name.... But I've convinced myself that's what these "phantom lines" that some hear are.

That is a believable theory Edgar.  I have never seen it in a movie before but that could be the very reason the two boys gave such a stellar performance.

I also thought of it being subliminal. Is that the word, subliminal?  To enhance the feeling in the movie.  Whatever it is, it is there and it is wonderful.

[NoReins]

I also thought of it being subliminal. Is that the word, subliminal?  To enhance the feeling in the movie.  Whatever it is, it is there and it is wonderful.

Yeah, I think subliminal is the word. Subliminal messages are things you "get" without having them spelled out to you - things that get into your head via an image, or a look, or a bit of body language. That definitely fits here with a word or words said under the breath so you kind of hear it but you don't hear it - you get the idea but you don't really know how.

Not sure I've put that very well, but I know what you meant, Patriot1.

[edgar]

By the way, it's pretty easy to hear the "sorry" (or *possibly* another " 's all right") on this youtube clip.



This time, when I saw it, I somehow got the impression that Ennis was apologizing for being so awkward, so not-knowing-what-to-do after entering the tent. Maybe even apologizing for not being a good kisser, or for not kissing Jack back enough (since kissing is the subject at hand).

[MississaugaRed]

By the way, it's pretty easy to hear the "sorry" (or *possibly* another " 's all right") on this youtube clip.



This time, when I saw it, I somehow got the impression that Ennis was apologizing for being so awkward, so not-knowing-what-to-do after entering the tent. Maybe even apologizing for not being a good kisser, or for not kissing Jack back enough (since kissing is the subject at hand).

I have to admit, I had always heard (regardless of the subtitles) 3 "' 's all right"s, although the first does sound like it could be "I'm sorry", granted.  I hear the "I'm sorry" mostly now, because of reading all these posts.  Power of suggestion, way to go!

But I've always felt all this came from Jack, not Ennis at all.  And I still go with that, partly because it doesn't LOOK like Ennis is whispering, and partly because the words are in the same timbre, all Jack's voice.

But that's just me.   We should all go with whatever makes us happiest.  The kisses before and after are how they are really speaking, anyway.