Topic: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?

[Italian_Dude]

I watched BBM again last night with both of my parents and they both loved it, and my mom cried like a baby!

Also, my mom brought something to my attention I never thought of before..

When Cassie is with Alma Jr and Ennis and she is talking alone with Alma and she asks if Ennis will ever see fit to settle down again, Alma Jr responds

"Maybe he's not the marrying kind"

At that point my mom said, "she knows"

And then I thought about it, and I seriously think my mom could be right, I believe Alma Jr knew..

My mom said, "of course she knows, when Alma found out Ennis was with Jack, she was crying holding her [Alma Jr].. now she's older, she must have told her why, and explained about what really caused their divorce. She must have told her daughter about it, or mentioned something about it. I would have. Trust me, Alma Jr knows"

Its not stated officially anywhere that Alma Jr knew, but it very well could be. Now that I think about it, I get that vibe from her..

What do you guys think??

[dirtbiker]

I think she knew when Jack drove all the way from Childress unannounced after Ennis' divorce.  I'm sure the girls overheard some of the conversation daddy & Jack had while they were sitting in the truck.  Did you also notice that Alma Jr's face turned from a smile to a frown when Ennis drove up in the truck to pick her up when she saw a woman (Cassie) in the truck with him?  She was probably thinking "oh no, daddy, you won't be happy with a woman - stop denying it and go with Jack!"  :'(

[Sunflower79]

thats an interesting question..um I think she might have suspected that her dad had trouble with relationships and women in general. She may have thought her dad liked men or Jack alot..I also think she wanted her father to be happy instead of sad and gloomy. It probally hurt her to see her dad is so much pain and heart ache..from being in an loveless marriage to dating someone he really didn't love either. Kids always seem to be able to pick up on things, either it be good times or hard times or sad times. they have this way of knowing something is off..and I think she knew something was wrong with her farther in the sense he was unhappy. So did she know it is a possibly she did know.

[Italian_Dude]

I think she knew when Jack drove all the way from Childress unannounced after Ennis' divorce.  I'm sure the girls overheard some of the conversation daddy & Jack had while they were sitting in the truck.  Did you also notice that Alma Jr's face turned from a smile to a frown when Ennis drove up in the truck to pick her up when she saw a woman (Cassie) in the truck with him?  She was probably thinking "oh no, daddy, you won't be happy with a woman - stop denying it and go with Jack!"  :'(

Yes, thats a good point I never noticed that!!

[Patriot1]

Here are two other threads on this subject you might be interested in.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=638.0

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2991.0

[tpe]

The threads pointed out by Patriot1 are indeed of interest to this.

I personally think she knew.  But I still waver as to whether she said this phrase as an oblique warning to Cassie, or as just a subtle statement of the truth...

[NoReins]

I think she knew, too, but I don't think it was because Alma ever told her. It took Alma years to say anything to Ennis about what she knew, so there's no reason to think that she would have spoken to anyone else.

I reckon that Junior suspected about her dad because of what she and Jenny saw when Jack arrived after Ennis's divorce and as she grew up and learned more about the world she would have put two and two together.

[keren_b]

Did you also notice that Alma Jr's face turned from a smile to a frown when Ennis drove up in the truck to pick her up when she saw a woman (Cassie) in the truck with him?  She was probably thinking "oh no, daddy, you won't be happy with a woman - stop denying it and go with Jack!"  :'(

I saw that expression but I didn't think that was the reason... I thought that she probably wanted her daddy all to herself (when she finally gets to spend some time with him) and didn't wanna share him with anyone else... and that's why she reacted like that when she saw Cassie. Also, I think it's not uncommon for children of divorced people to be suspicious towards their parent's new partners...

[Patriot1]

Did you also notice that Alma Jr's face turned from a smile to a frown when Ennis drove up in the truck to pick her up when she saw a woman (Cassie) in the truck with him?  She was probably thinking "oh no, daddy, you won't be happy with a woman - stop denying it and go with Jack!"  :'(

I saw that expression but I didn't think that was the reason... I thought that she probably wanted her daddy all to herself (when she finally gets to spend some time with him) and didn't wanna share him with anyone else... and that's why she reacted like that when she saw Cassie. Also, I think it's not uncommon for children of divorced people to be suspicious towards their parent's new partners...

What you say keren_b is true, but, you also have to look at her face when Cassie drags, literally, Ennis to the dance floor.  She had such a look of sadness on her face as she knew her Daddy was just going through the motions and really wasn't into what was going on.

I think she knew.  I think that is why she wanted to move in with him, so she could take care of him and he wouldn't feel pressured to get married again.  This movie is 40% words and 60% facial expressions and they all do a wonderful job at it.


Alma Jr sees her father driving down the street.  She smiles.



Alma Jr sees that Cassie is in the truck. She frowns.



Alma Jr watches as Cassie drags her Daddy to the dance floor.  She looks sad for him.  Look at her eyes.  She knows her Daddy loves Jack but she doesn't know how to help him.

[tpe]

I think she knew.  I think that is why she wanted to move in with him, so she could take care of him and he wouldn't feel pressured to get married again.  This movie is 40% words and 60% facial expressions and they all do a wonderful job at it.

This is a wonderful interpretation.  I shall give it a home in my heart.

[NoReins]

What you say keren_b is true, but, you also have to look at her face when Cassie drags, literally, Ennis to the dance floor.  She had such a look of sadness on her face as she knew her Daddy was just going through the motions and really wasn't into what was going on.

So that's another one to add to the "what if's" then - what if Alma Jr had said something to her dad about not being ashamed of who he was and that had helped him to overcome his fears and give in to Jack? If anyone could have convinced him it was ok, I suspect it was Junior.

[keren_b]

Whether she knew or not, I'm sure she'd be very accepting. I just feel it. We know Alma jr loves her dad a lot and cares for him very much, I honestly believe that she'd want him to be happy with Jack... if Ennis would've told her about his love for Jack (which of course he would never ever do) I think she'd say "oh daddy, go for it..." I don't know why but that's the way I feel. 

[Patriot1]

I just added 3 pictures to my post 3 or 4 back up the line if you want to see them.

[tpe]

So that's another one to add to the "what if's" then - what if Alma Jr had said something to her dad about not being ashamed of who he was and that had helped him to overcome his fears and give in to Jack? If anyone could have convinced him it was ok, I suspect it was Junior.

Indeed, this is a tantalizing possibility.  What would Junior have said?  Perhaps: 'follow your heart.'  But I am still not sure how Ennis would have reacted.  His daughter's consent would be a great personal victory for him, but society at learge remains the way it is...

[cremetorte]

this thread is great! (okay, now that i got that out of the way, on to the topic:)

in my opinion, she knew and maybe wanted cassie to back off with these words...
actually, i kind of identify with junior in the movie, because i'm very close to my dad, too. and he's also not really a guy who talks a whole lot...
i know that i knew about my dad's new girlfriend way before he told me. and even though my sister isn't as close to him as me, she knew, too. so, it would seem natural for junior to know about jack or at least about the way ennis felt.
someone here said that maybe alma told her - i don't think so... i think she figured it out on her own. i mean, she knew about the "fishing trips" with jack and then, all of a sudden, jack comes up all the way from childress right after the divorce. and i'm also pretty sure that she overheard at least part of the conversation between jack and ennis there...

well, i'll need more time to think about this matter more thoroughly. i'll be back

thanks so much, I_D for opening up this topic!

[tpe]

i think she figured it out on her own. i mean, she knew about the "fishing trips" with jack and then, all of a sudden, jack comes up all the way from childress right after the divorce. and i'm also pretty sure that she overheard at least part of the conversation between jack and ennis there...

Somehow, I also think that she just deduced it over the years.  She may have overheard things by way of her mother or when Ennis met Jack after the divorce.  Her bond with her father seems pretty strong not to think she sensed how he felt many times.

I wonder if Jenny was less attached to her father...  It seems that both daughters were very fond of Ennis.  Only Alma Jr. in later life was shown, although it was implied that she continued to see both of them ('I'll pick you and Jenny up after church...')

[keren_b]

Well, assuming that she knew, it gives a new meaning to her line to Cassie - "you're good enough"... it was another way to say "you're as good as any other woman", knowing that her dad will never trully love any woman no matter who she is.

[tpe]

Well, assuming that she knew, it gives a new meaning to her line to Cassie - "you're good enough"... it was another way to say "you're as good as any other woman", knowing that her dad will never trully love any woman no matter who she is.

Indeed, this is an excellent point.  It does give a deeper meaning to her response.  The feeling one gets from her tone of voice is: 'it does not matter to him.'

[NoReins]

Well, assuming that she knew, it gives a new meaning to her line to Cassie - "you're good enough"... it was another way to say "you're as good as any other woman", knowing that her dad will never trully love any woman no matter who she is.

Indeed, this is an excellent point.  It does give a deeper meaning to her response.  The feeling one gets from her tone of voice is: 'it does not matter to him.'

Took the words out of my mouth again tpe!

[dirtbiker]

If there ever was a sequel to BBM, I would like to see the dynamics between Alma Jr and Ennis unfold....

[bubbaluna]

I have often thought about this topic in relation to the scene when Jack does drive all the way from Texas to Riverton to see Ennis thinking that Ennis will be happy to see him and also that Ennis will probably go away with him (at least for the weekend)

There is no way that a young perceptive girl like Alma Jr could let that go by. The way that Ennis and Jack hugged had to look suspicious to her (I doubt that she saw her father hug any other man at all, much less like that) and as was said before some of the conversation and the obvious disappointment on Jack's face as well as Ennis' nervousness must also have broken through to her. She had to at least suspect at this point that their relationship was unusual. I don't agree that Alma told her daughter about Ennis and Jack. This was 1975 (I believe) and having lived through that era it was still pretty taboo to talk about "gay" relationships especially to a young impressionable girl. Alma might have told her that Ennis was lacking as a husband in some ways, but I doubt she would have gone further.

After that weekend with the girls I would think that Ennis and Alma probably had a bit of a strained relationship. She was likely a bit quieter than usual and was trying to assess what exactly might have been going on. She probably also knew about the fishing trips with Jack (in fact I am sure she did, since the trips were not kept secret) so the pieces would begin to come together quickly. By the time she met Cassie she knew......My take anyway

[BBBOY]

Well, assuming that she knew, it gives a new meaning to her line to Cassie - "you're good enough"... it was another way to say "you're as good as any other woman", knowing that her dad will never trully love any woman no matter who she is.

You hit the nial on the head keren_b! I think that is exactly what she is saying.

[BBBOY]

I have often thought about this topic in relation to the scene when Jack does drive all the way from Texas to Riverton to see Ennis thinking that Ennis will be happy to see him and also that Ennis will probably go away with him (at least for the weekend)

There is no way that a young perceptive girl like Alma Jr could let that go by. The way that Ennis and Jack hugged had to look suspicious to her (I doubt that she saw her father hug any other man at all, much less like that) and as was said before some of the conversation and the obvious disappointment on Jack's face as well as Ennis' nervousness must also have broken through to her. She had to at least suspect at this point that their relationship was unusual. I don't agree that Alma told her daughter about Ennis and Jack. This was 1975 (I believe) and having lived through that era it was still pretty taboo to talk about "gay" relationships especially to a young impressionable girl. Alma might have told her that Ennis was lacking as a husband in some ways, but I doubt she would have gone further.

I'd like to go OT for a moment and discuss this scene. If you look closely, the boys are standing back behind the windows of the truck so the girls could not have seen the embrace unless they were leaning forward and looking out the drivers window and when Ennis introduces Jack to them they are sitting up looking straight forward and seem a little shy looking at Jack. Maybe they did peek as the car came up. Also when Jack and Ennis hug Jack puts his hand up to Ennis head and ear and Ennis gently but firmly removes it, a prelude to letting Jack know they are not alone.

Back OT I believe Alma Jr. knew.

[Rønnaug]

they could have looked in the rearview mirror
(Edit: there is  no rearview mirror but there are side mirrors on Ennis' truck)

But I think Junior knew...she might not know WHAT she knew but I think she knew either that Jack ment something to her father more than as a friend or she knew that her father was "different"

Like it has been sayd here, small children can pick up on things us adults can't see even if we are hit across the face with it. When jack comes to see Ennis after 4 years we see Junior running past Ennis just before Ennis hears the truck. Whos to sy that Little Junior didn't go to the window to look out and saw the kiss? Nothing to imply she wasn't in the livingroom so mayby...when Jack and Ennis come up to say hi to Alma we hear the girls close by.

[Valandil Eluch]

I think she was aware of all this, if you remember even as a child she was looking after her father if you watch the scene in which alma leaves the house and goes to work you see Junior watching her dad as he walks up the stairs upset, i mean she was really since little linked to him across she is growing she seems to be the only one of them that try to talk with Ennis i don't mean jenny didn't  want it but she is not mentioned is always Jr. the one that does the moves to talk to him. when jack goes to Ennis after the divorce i notice that Jack was going to kiss Ennis and he did a quick move stop that then he introduced his girls i mean I'm lost all the time and i notice that so if i was able of course Junior was able. after all growing with her father she obviously would have seeing Ennis excitement to see jack and go "fishing" and then how he was on his return. i think she knew that and she was telling Cassie that she was good enough to be Ennis cover, i mean i read on an article in which Dianna Ossana said  that probably the whole town was  aware that Ennis was homosexual. she knew there was something special between her dad and Jack and she probably as you said here got everthing clear during the years. she was a perfect daughter and she would probably take care of him when he is unable to take care of himself. Girls love their dad in very special way and that is a fact

[Rønnaug]

Girls love their dad in very special way and that is a fact

Yes and sometimes we know too much about them

[Valandil Eluch]

Girls love their dad in very special way and that is a fact

Yes and sometimes we know too much about them

tell me that i have sister and sometimes seems she knows my dad better than me, i am the one that talks to him more and live with him

[Rønnaug]

they could have looked in the rearview mirror
(Edit: there is  no rearview mirror but there are side mirrors on Ennis' truck)

Ok, another edit, there IS a rearview mirror there....and when looking at it now... well..go have a look at Juniors face when Ennis introduces them..it's like "hehe, you like him" and kinda embarrased about seeing it

[Italian_Dude]

they could have looked in the rearview mirror
(Edit: there is  no rearview mirror but there are side mirrors on Ennis' truck)

Ok, another edit, there IS a rearview mirror there....and when looking at it now... well..go have a look at Juniors face when Ennis introduces them..it's like "hehe, you like him" and kinda embarrased about seeing it

Yes ! I thought that too!

Its a whole bunch of scenes that make me believe she knew.
I don't think Alma told Junior either, that was my moms reaction after her first viewing, but I agree that she knew and picked it up somehow..!

I could talk about this for days hahaha! Its so interesting lol!

[welshwitch]

At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.