Topic: Is it possible that....?

[Patriot1]

I just finished reading the latest posts in the Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? thread and all of a sudden something popped into my head.

Is it possible that Randall had Jack killed?

Picture it...(that was my Estelle Gettys impersonation) Jack decides to set Ennis free and takes up with Randall.  Ennis sends the post card to Jack about November and Jack can not resist seeing Ennis.  He tells Randall about Ennis and Randall gets jealoys because he then knows he will never mean to Jack what Ennis does and has Jack killed.

Possible?

[NoReins]

Hmmmm. Difficult question.

Ok, do we know the time frame for the events following Jack and Ennis's last trip? Like, do we know when Ennis sent the postcard - was it before August to say "no change in the situation - still can't get away in August" or was it much nearer November? If it's the former, then I guess there's a possibility that Randall may have seen the card and got jealous - but if it's the latter then I'm pretty convinced Jack was killed before the postcard even arrived.

I personally think that Randall did have something to do with Jack's death - but not in the way you're thinking Patriot1. I think that Jack got careless when he was with Randall - maybe because Randall had made the first move so was clearly far more comfortable with his sexuality than Ennis (not too hard!) There's no way that Jack's relationship with Ennis would have brought attention from the wrong type of people because it was always carried out "way the hell out in the middle of nowhere", but Randall was suggesting trips to a cabin owned by his boss, which made them much more vulnerable to someone finding out. I reckon their "friendship" got tongues wagging and in the end led to Jack's murder. Not sure why Randall wasn't killed, though - unless he did something despicable like "outing" Jack in order to save his own neck?

I think that's more questions than answers, to be honest - which I believe was something Heath Ledger said about this damn story!

[tpe]

I think the circumstances surrounding Jack's death is so open to interpretation that I would say that this possibility cannot be completely discounted.

I remember the dissembling in Jack's comment that he fears being killed by Lureen or the husband whenever he goes out to see the ranch neighbor's wife.  Although used as a cover-up, IMO, I think this suggests the possibility of his being killed by Randall.

[CrimsonSky]

I personally think that Randall did have something to do with Jack's death - but not in the way you're thinking Patriot1. I think that Jack got careless when he was with Randall - maybe because Randall had made the first move so was clearly far more comfortable with his sexuality than Ennis (not too hard!) There's no way that Jack's relationship with Ennis would have brought attention from the wrong type of people because it was always carried out "way the hell out in the middle of nowhere", but Randall was suggesting trips to a cabin owned by his boss, which made them much more vulnerable to someone finding out. I reckon their "friendship" got tongues wagging and in the end led to Jack's murder. Not sure why Randall wasn't killed, though - unless he did something despicable like "outing" Jack in order to save his own neck?

I've always thought pretty much the same, as far as Jack's death being a consequence of his relationship with Randall, although we don't know that Randall wasn't killed too, do we?  ???I don't think it's mentioned one way or another

Randall killing Jack isn't out of the question though, we don't really know anything about their relationship (I think it was just a sex thing for Jack, but that's just my opinion), but if Randall really was planning to leave his wife for Jack, and then found out about Ennis, he could have killed Jack in a jealous rage
Or maybe, Randall's wife found out and had Jack killed As tpe says, Jack mentioned about being killed by the ranch neighbour wife's husband, but, of course, it was the husband he was having the affair with, so it would be the wife who would want him dead

I don't have enough brain power to cope with all the stuff this film keeps throwing up! :o

[filazahies]

I think the circumstances surrounding Jack's death is so open to interpretation that I would say that this possibility cannot be completely discounted.

I remember the dissembling in Jack's comment that he fears being killed by Lureen or the husband whenever he goes out to see the ranch neighbor's wife.  Although used as a cover-up, IMO, I think this suggests the possibility of his being killed by Randall.

Here I agree with you, tpe, probably that comment Jack made could give us a clue of something Jack may fear. I also think that his relationship with Randall had something to do with his death.
NoReins points out that we don't know why Randall wasn't killed, but do we know if we was killed or not? What if both, Jack and Randall, were killed if someone found them "at the wrong place, at the wrong time"?

[FlwrChild]

I just finished reading the latest posts in the Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? thread and all of a sudden something popped into my head.

Is it possible that Randall had Jack killed?

Picture it...(that was my Estelle Gettys impersonation) Jack decides to set Ennis free and takes up with Randall.  Ennis sends the post card to Jack about November and Jack can not resist seeing Ennis.  He tells Randall about Ennis and Randall gets jealoys because he then knows he will never mean to Jack what Ennis does and has Jack killed.

Possible?

A very interesting thread. And sorry to go OT, but I love your Estelle Gettys impersonation!

[edgar]

Wow, interesting thread.

Great question, Patriot, but I'm going to have to agree with No Reins; I have a strong impression for some reason that Jack has been dead for some time--months perhaps--before the postcard is returned and the robotic recital by Lureen.

At the very least, enough time has elapsed for a funeral to be arranged, cremation to occur, burial in Texas, message to Wyoming, ashes sent to Wyoming.

This is just impression/opinion, but it seems to me that mail to a deceased person--which would include important financial documents, bills, etc--does not get marked "DECEASED"  :'( and simply returned immediately upon death. If a family is there (as is the case with Jack) then the mail will continue to be delivered so that all the loose ends may be tied up. Then, after a period, the mail is stamped and returned.

Also, I can't imagine, Ennis being Ennis, that he would send a postcard months in advance. I get the impression that Jack usually initiated contact, but in this instance Ennis realized he'd better write something since he hadn't heard from Jack and he was concerned that maybe Jack was "still sore from that (psychological) punch" he'd gotten in the parking lot.

And I agree with others that it WAS Randall that got Jack killed, but not intentionally. If anyone premeditated Jack's death, I'd say it was some of Lureen's relatives. If you see the movie only and don't read the story (in which LD had died), it certainly could have been LD Newhouse. Otherwise, it was just some guys on a spontaneous hate rampage. 

[LuvJackNasty]

I've said this in another thread:

My friend thinks Randall was a set-up because he mentioned fishing and drinking whiskey. I told her too many years passed for it to have been a set up and that was probably the thing to do {fishing and drinking}. Anything is possible Patriot {Sophia-lol} and your scenario is quite possible. I think it could have been Randall's boss catching them in his cabin or just catching wind of Jack and Randall-he was a good ole boy as Randall said. Randall could be dead for all we know. They could have killed Randall and then got a hold of poor Jack. Or it could be like Noreins said- Randall outed Jack to save himself. Mostly I think Jack just got reckless after realizing his dreams would never be fulfilled with Ennis. We will never have closure on this.  :'(

[tpe]

NoReins points out that we don't know why Randall wasn't killed, but do we know if we was killed or not? What if both, Jack and Randall, were killed if someone found them "at the wrong place, at the wrong time"?

Yes, interesting point...

[tpe]

And I agree with others that it WAS Randall that got Jack killed, but not intentionally. If anyone premeditated Jack's death, I'd say it was some of Lureen's relatives. If you see the movie only and don't read the story (in which LD had died), it certainly could have been LD Newhouse. Otherwise, it was just some guys on a spontaneous hate rampage. 

The more I think about this, the more the possibility becomes more 'natural'.  I don't really know the exact circumstances of the cut scenes with the mechanic.  The only thing I heard is that it was instigated by Jack's car getting a flat and needing repair.  What caused the mechanic to suspect that something was amiss?  Perhaps others could fill in this lacunae...

[MississaugaRed]

The more I think about this, the more the possibility becomes more 'natural'.  I don't really know the exact circumstances of the cut scenes with the mechanic.  The only thing I heard is that it was instigated by Jack's car getting a flat and needing repair.  What caused the mechanic to suspect that something was amiss?  Perhaps others could fill in this lacunae...

tpe, maybe we'll get lucky and they'll include these mechanic scenes on the (BOUND TO HAPPEN) special edition DVD they must release some day soon ... maybe Jack's death was a crime of opportunity is so much as these yahoos suspected Jack was "different" and getting him alone on the back road was tragic back luck for Jack.  As you say, why did they suspect?  Was Randall with him around these guys to somehow set them off?  Another question I guess ... did these guys premeditate or act on their (big dumb ape) instincts when they had Jack alone??

Oops, I have to apologize - I think I just maligned the good name of apes everywhere by comparing Jack's killers to them.  Very sorry.  No animal is as cruel as a (sub)human can be ...

[danac]

Maybe Randall wasn't gay. Maybe he really did just want Jack to be a fishing buddy at the cabin...
And Jack came on to him, Randall freaked out and killed him.
Arrrrggghh...that's  ugly.
But, possible. :-[

[FlwrChild]

Maybe Randall wasn't gay. Maybe he really did just want Jack to be a fishing buddy at the cabin...
And Jack came on to him, Randall freaked out and killed him.
Arrrrggghh...that's  ugly.
But, possible. :-[

Anything's possible,but I'd bet the farm Randall was gay and interested as hell in our Jack (and of course, who wouldn't be?).
Just the way he looked at him.

[edgar]

Maybe Randall wasn't gay. Maybe he really did just want Jack to be a fishing buddy at the cabin...
And Jack came on to him, Randall freaked out and killed him.
Arrrrggghh...that's  ugly.
But, possible. :-[

Anything's possible,but I'd bet the farm Randall was gay and interested as hell in our Jack (and of course, who wouldn't be?).
Just the way he looked at him.

And he probably had heard that Jack was a good kisser. :D

[danac]

Maybe Randall wasn't gay. Maybe he really did just want Jack to be a fishing buddy at the cabin...
And Jack came on to him, Randall freaked out and killed him.
Arrrrggghh...that's  ugly.
But, possible. :-[

Anything's possible,but I'd bet the farm Randall was gay and interested as hell in our Jack (and of course, who wouldn't be?).
Just the way he looked at him.

And he probably had heard that Jack was a good kisser. :D

 

[CrimsonSky]

Maybe Randall wasn't gay. Maybe he really did just want Jack to be a fishing buddy at the cabin...
And Jack came on to him, Randall freaked out and killed him.
Arrrrggghh...that's  ugly.
But, possible. :-[

Anything's possible,but I'd bet the farm Randall was gay and interested as hell in our Jack (and of course, who wouldn't be?).
Just the way he looked at him.

Yeah, I thought it was obvious Randall fancied Jack, he wasn't exactly subtle with the eye contact, was he?  :o :D I wonder if his keenness is supposed to imply that he falls for Jack, and presses him to commit to him (which Jack can't do, cause he loves Ennis) he goes into 'bunny boiler' mode and kills him? :'(

[danac]

[
Anything's possible,but I'd bet the farm Randall was gay and interested as hell in our Jack (and of course, who wouldn't be?).
Just the way he looked at him.

Yeah, I thought it was obvious Randall fancied Jack, he wasn't exactly subtle with the eye contact, was he?  :o :D I wonder if his keenness is supposed to imply that he falls for Jack, and presses him to commit to him (which Jack can't do, cause he loves Ennis) he goes into 'bunny boiler' mode and kills him? :'(

At the end of the day, Randall just didn't look like a killer...
The person who might really have done Jack in is LD Newsom...what a creep he was!

[shieldmaid]

My recent, most distressing thought on this subject has to do with Jack's father, sadly enough.    While I do not want in any way to think that he had anything to do with his own son's death, I can't help thinking about the way that these men's fathers are portrayed in the film (Ennis telling the story of the "tough old birds'" death at home: "for all I know, he [my father] done the job.").  Their fathers are clearly conservative, close-minded, and homophobic.  When Jack's father realized where his son's romantic interests lay--as he couldn't help noticing, when Jack constantly talked about Ennis and then started to mention Randall--he must have been disappointed, angry, even disgusted.  I don't think he killed Jack--but I think it's more likely that he would have participated in violence of this sort (against someone else, perhaps) than Randall would have, even in a "Fatal Attraction" kind of scenario.

With that said, I must admit that I really believe, at bottom, that Jack and Randall were seen somehow, by people they either didn't know or knew at work or in some kind of distant relationship, and those people beat him to death out of pure homophobia.  I doubt that anyone as personally connected to Jack as Randall was involved.

Just my two cents.  And, I think my comments above are a little confusing.  I guess what I meant is that we see more evidence of violence and homophobia from Jack's father than from Randall--we know so little about Randall at all.  But I think the act of beating Jack to death was a chillingly impersonal one.  That's why we see it so briefly, and only through the lens of Ennis's imagination.

[danac]

My recent, most distressing thought on this subject has to do with Jack's father, sadly enough.    While I do not want in any way to think that he had anything to do with his own son's death, I can't help thinking about the way that these men's fathers are portrayed in the film (

I think that, while John Twist had the same conceptual notions of homophobia, he was clearly NOT opposed to his son bringing a man to live with him in Lightning Flat. To me, he seems more disappointed that it didn't happen than opposed to Jack's relations with these men.
I honestly think John Twist gets a bad rap...because he is so brittle and bitter.
My take is he always wanted Jack at home - and that's why he never encouraged rodeoin' - and is so mad at the world that Jack's ideas "never came to pass"....

* running to find shelter from stones thrown by those who hate Twist, Sr."

[FlwrChild]

My recent, most distressing thought on this subject has to do with Jack's father, sadly enough.    While I do not want in any way to think that he had anything to do with his own son's death, I can't help thinking about the way that these men's fathers are portrayed in the film (

I think that, while John Twist had the same conceptual notions of homophobia, he was clearly NOT opposed to his son bringing a man to live with him in Lightning Flat. To me, he seems more disappointed that it didn't happen than opposed to Jack's relations with these men.
I honestly think John Twist gets a bad rap...because he is so brittle and bitter.
My take is he always wanted Jack at home - and that's why he never encouraged rodeoin' - and is so mad at the world that Jack's ideas "never came to pass"....

* running to find shelter from stones thrown by those who hate Twist, Sr."

danac I also always thought that Mr. Twist was more bitter about the fact that Jack didn't come take over the ranch than about him being gay. I mentioned this on another thread. But I still think he was a miserable old man who never gave Jack any love. I think what the two fathers had most in common was their inability to love their sons. Sorry for going a little OT.

[Patriot1]

My recent, most distressing thought on this subject has to do with Jack's father, sadly enough.    While I do not want in any way to think that he had anything to do with his own son's death, I can't help thinking about the way that these men's fathers are portrayed in the film (

I think that, while John Twist had the same conceptual notions of homophobia, he was clearly NOT opposed to his son bringing a man to live with him in Lightning Flat. To me, he seems more disappointed that it didn't happen than opposed to Jack's relations with these men.
I honestly think John Twist gets a bad rap...because he is so brittle and bitter.
My take is he always wanted Jack at home - and that's why he never encouraged rodeoin' - and is so mad at the world that Jack's ideas "never came to pass"....

* running to find shelter from stones thrown by those who hate Twist, Sr."

No stones from me love. Kiss, kiss, kiss.  You are the first person to agree with me!  I am dancing.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2997.0

Great thread on the subject.

                   

[danac]

[]

I think that, while John Twist had the same conceptual notions of homophobia, he was clearly NOT opposed to his son bringing a man to live with him in Lightning Flat. To me, he seems more disappointed that it didn't happen than opposed to Jack's relations with these men.
I honestly think John Twist gets a bad rap...because he is so brittle and bitter.
My take is he always wanted Jack at home - and that's why he never encouraged rodeoin' - and is so mad at the world that Jack's ideas "never came to pass"....

* running to find shelter from stones thrown by those who hate Twist, Sr."

No stones from me love. Kiss, kiss, kiss.  You are the first person to agree with me!  I am dancing.

Really? Someone else thinks John Twist wasn't THAT bad? See, here's the thing about all those kinds of men...they had hard lives: hard work, harsh weather, little financial gain...they raised their sons to be able to deal with the fathers' realities...they didn't fawn or baby their sons, or daughters for that matter. But Jack always had a home he knew he could go to...
Ennis' father was way more vindictive and vicious if we believe Ennis' suspicions about the murder "down home"...
Patriot, you are my main man!

[FlwrChild]

[]

I think that, while John Twist had the same conceptual notions of homophobia, he was clearly NOT opposed to his son bringing a man to live with him in Lightning Flat. To me, he seems more disappointed that it didn't happen than opposed to Jack's relations with these men.
I honestly think John Twist gets a bad rap...because he is so brittle and bitter.
My take is he always wanted Jack at home - and that's why he never encouraged rodeoin' - and is so mad at the world that Jack's ideas "never came to pass"....

* running to find shelter from stones thrown by those who hate Twist, Sr."

No stones from me love. Kiss, kiss, kiss.  You are the first person to agree with me!  I am dancing.

Really? Someone else thinks John Twist wasn't THAT bad? See, here's the thing about all those kinds of men...they had hard lives: hard work, harsh weather, little financial gain...they raised their sons to be able to deal with the fathers' realities...they didn't fawn or baby their sons, or daughters for that matter. But Jack always had a home he knew he could go to...
Ennis' father was way more vindictive and vicious if we believe Ennis' suspicions about the murder "down home"...
Patriot, you are my main man!

Oh no doubt - Ennis' dad was pure evil. Jack's dad just wasn't a very good father. And that was the common trait I thought they shared. And I thought the reason Mr. Twist wasn't a good father was simply that he never valued his child. If he had, I would have been fine with the rest. I know, way OT. Back to the thread. I'm with the 'he was probably killed because he was gay but not as part of any complex conspiracy' group.