Author Topic: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest" (Read 94300 times)

ethan · « **on:** May 10, 2006, 03:14 PM »

This is the most heartbreaking scene for many of us. It got me tears every single time. Yes Jack and Ennis could have and should have a good life together. It breaks my heart just to type the words from Jack.... :'( :'(

"Tell you what, we could of had a good life together, a fu**in' real good life, had a place of our own. You wouldn't want it, Ennis, so what got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that. It's all we got, boy, fu**in' all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest....."

What could Jack mean by the rest? Any thought?

The rest - how much love Jack was giving Ennis?

dirtbiker · « **Reply #1 on:** May 10, 2006, 03:23 PM »

God I hope he doesn't mean his trysts in Mexico!

tpe · « **Reply #2 on:** May 10, 2006, 03:26 PM »

He probably availed himself of male prostitutes, as he did in that scene in Mexico.

But I think this is really a reference to Randall. Jack probably already had something going with his neighbor, and I am sure Jack was torn between his deep love for Ennis and a desire to have a shared life with somebody.

ethan · « **Reply #3 on:** May 10, 2006, 04:09 PM »

Reference to Randall :'(

No :'( No Randall. Jack was definitely torn. Why couldn't Ennis understand? :'( This is too frastrating.

Yes Ennis - you are no fun. But Jack didn't fall in love with fun. Sorry for rambling. My PBS just kicks in.

Thanks, tpe & dirtbiker. :D

tpe · « **Reply #4 on:** May 10, 2006, 04:23 PM »

Ethan, I do think when Jack said this, he was definitely echoing Ennis's words 'all them things I don't know...will get you killed if I come to know them'. I guess Jack was pointing out that all those things Ennis did not know did not really matter.

Everything was built on BBM. It was ALL. Their love endures so long as the Mountain itself endures with them.

On the surface, it sounded like a taunt -- this statement from Jack. In a deeper sense, it was an affirmation of faith -- a faith in the endurance of their love -- a love that was founded on so little and yet endures all the same.

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #5 on:** May 10, 2006, 04:26 PM »

:'( :'( :'( :'(

stacp · « **Reply #6 on:** May 10, 2006, 04:43 PM »

You know, I have a completely different take on this line. Jack says this right after he says that all they have is BBM. Then he says "I hope you know this if you don't never know the rest." To me Jack is saying, their relationship is based on the fantasy that was BBM. They haven't moved beyond this "thing" they had on BBM. Knowing the rest for Ennis, would mean realizing and accepting that they love each other and could have had a life together. "The rest" to me is the equivalent of Ennis knowing and owning up to how much he loved Jack. It's just my interpretation, though. I see the interpretation of the posts, above, too.

tpe · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2006, 04:52 PM »

Quote from: stacp on May 10, 2006, 04:43 PM

You know, I have a completely different take on this line. Jack says this right after he says that all they have is BBM. Then he says "I hope you know this if you don't never know the rest." To me Jack is saying, their relationship is based on the fantasy that was BBM. They haven't moved beyond this "thing" they had on BBM. Knowing the rest for Ennis, would mean realizing and accepting that they love each other and could have had a life together. "The rest" to me is the equivalent of Ennis knowing and owning up to how much he loved Jack. It's just my interpretation, though. I see the interpretation of the posts, above, too.

I too can see this.

The ambivalence is based on the words "so I hope you know that...". Indeed, one can interpret this to mean that "this is the ONLY thing we have going after 20 years". Then again, it can be read with reference to "...I hope you know this if you don't never know the rest." to mean "I hope you know AT LEAST THIS in spite of not knowing anything else".

Like Jack's feelings, this entire speech has the richness and ambivalence born of true emotion: love, frustration, hate, and hope.

Jack's hope was dying at this point, and he was clutching now on straws... Whether or not his love was dying is the subject of another thread...

Thanks stacp.

Sunflower79 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2006, 05:37 PM »

I think it could be a combination of everything..he was frustrated that they could have had this wonderful life together but it didnt happen. He also could have been meaning that he missed Ennis so much when they weren't together that he had to go seek male prostritution to fill as a void. He could be saying that he felt that all they had was Brokeback..and everything was centered around that fact. :'( :'( I do agree his speech speaks of love, frustration, hate, disappointment, and a dream he once had lost..so sad.. :'( :'( maybe he was always saying that he loved Ennis so much it hurt too..

karen1129 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2006, 06:06 PM »

Quote from: stacp on May 10, 2006, 04:43 PM

You know, I have a completely different take on this line. Jack says this right after he says that all they have is BBM. Then he says "I hope you know this if you don't never know the rest." To me Jack is saying, their relationship is based on the fantasy that was BBM. They haven't moved beyond this "thing" they had on BBM. Knowing the rest for Ennis, would mean realizing and accepting that they love each other and could have had a life together. "The rest" to me is the equivalent of Ennis knowing and owning up to how much he loved Jack. It's just my interpretation, though. I see the interpretation of the posts, above, too.

You know, I honestly never put a whole lot of thought into Jack saying that. This is all very interesting.
I think you are right. They never moved beyond this "thing". I think Jack accepted what it was, and
Lord knows he wanted to set up a ranch somewhere with Ennis, but I don't think Ennis ever got beyond
the belief that it was more then a "thing". Until it was too late.

shieldmaid · « **Reply #10 on:** May 10, 2006, 07:12 PM »

Quote from: Sunflower79 on May 10, 2006, 05:37 PM

I think it could be a combination of everything..he was frustrated that they could have had this wonderful life together but it didnt happen. He also could have been meaning that he missed Ennis so much when they weren't together that he had to go seek male prostritution to fill as a void. He could be saying that he felt that all they had was Brokeback..and everything was centered around that fact. :'( :'( I do agree his speech speaks of love, frustration, hate, disappointment, and a dream he once had lost..so sad.. :'( :'( maybe he was always saying that he loved Ennis so much it hurt too..

You put it beautifully, Sunflower79. I think that Jack here is saying that he's at least going to make Ennis hear--if not acknowledge--that they lost out on the chance they had to make a good life together. "The rest" to me means that Jack loves him, that nothing else in his life has mattered as much, and that he knows Ennis feels the same way, even though he knows Ennis wouldn't be able to tell him that.

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #11 on:** May 10, 2006, 08:53 PM »

I did used my lunch wisely and pulled my copy of closed range and my laptop and my copy of the BBM DVD and went to a part of the cafeteria and watched that scene and reread the that part. And well on my personal thought Jack was on his ending, i mean he was at the border of desperation for almost 20 he had being working hard to get Ennis with him and to make a life but he is always unable to get that. he hides his desperation to Ennis and always shows him his happiness and like a glass of water, his anger, bitterness, and all he the feelings he have are getting bigger and bigger. He love Ennis and he hates him, he love him, he always did and will do, but he also hates him because thanks to his fears they can't go further than a couple of hight altitude F***s. and his anger grows bigger when he his plans for their next meeting were changed.

They both know what brokeback mountain mean to them, it was the place where their bodies fell under the spell of love and where they became one and doomed, i have said this many times before. but they were one soul and each time they were together they were sharing their happiness, but sometimes that is not enough. and that is what happens to jack, this is not enough for him and since he didn't want to loose Ennis he stand it. he is forced to not tell his feelings to Ennis he tries on many occasions but the fact that he don't know how would Ennis react doesn't let him. Ennis meant his world to him and G'd knows that he is more than willing to leave his wife and his kid to be with Ennis, he don't care about the world and how they would judge him he don't care for money he just want Ennis.

Ennis is his sacred realm his soul is only and only Jack knows that but Ennis doesn't, he don't know that Jack love him more than anything that only a minute with him is a paradise for jack and I'm gonna quote a part of the short story when they were at the motel "Come on Ennis, you just shot my airplane out a the sky---give me something a go on" he was aware that he wanted Ennis so badly.

"I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest...." What is the rest? it is not about Randall or the Mexican prostitutes it is about how they missed each other, how they deeply love and how their souls went to a higher state of unity that can't allow them to be appart, how he love him and how he wanted to tell him that. how much he wanted to be with him and spent his last days with him ( :'( :'( :'( :'() jack was telling in a hidden language I love you bastard why you don't want to be with me. he was aware that Ennis was in denial of accepting his love toward him and he wanted to make him wake up of that state. this words hit him and were the ones that caused him to cry it was truth Ennis understood it but too late.....

ethan · « **Reply #12 on:** May 10, 2006, 09:19 PM »

Quote from: Carlos_H82 on May 10, 2006, 08:53 PM

"I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest...." What is the rest? it is not about Randall or the Mexican prostitutes it is about how they missed each other, how they deeply love and how their souls went to a higher state of unity that can't allow them to be appart, how he love him and how he wanted to tell him that. how much he wanted to be with him and spent his last days with him ( :'( :'( :'( :'() jack was telling in a hidden language I love you bastard why you don't want to be with me. he was aware that Ennis was in denial of accepting his love toward him and he wanted to make him wake up of that state. this words hit him and were the ones that caused him to cry it was truth Ennis understood it but too late.....

Carlos, you hit it. Reading your post along with my mental images of the scence -- just made my eyes teary.

Jack loved Ennis so much to the point that he had to set him free.

Ennis didn't know the rest until the shirts. :'( :'( :'( :'( Thank you Carlos for your wonderful post.

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #13 on:** May 10, 2006, 09:28 PM »

Quote from: ethan on May 10, 2006, 09:19 PM

Quote from: Carlos_H82 on May 10, 2006, 08:53 PM
"I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest...." What is the rest? it is not about Randall or the Mexican prostitutes it is about how they missed each other, how they deeply love and how their souls went to a higher state of unity that can't allow them to be appart, how he love him and how he wanted to tell him that. how much he wanted to be with him and spent his last days with him ( :'( :'( :'( :'() jack was telling in a hidden language I love you bastard why you don't want to be with me. he was aware that Ennis was in denial of accepting his love toward him and he wanted to make him wake up of that state. this words hit him and were the ones that caused him to cry it was truth Ennis understood it but too late.....

Carlos, you hit it. Reading your post along with my mental images of the scence -- just made my eyes teary.

Jack loved Ennis so much to the point that he had to set him free.

Ennis didn't know the rest until the shirts. :'( :'( :'( :'( Thank you Carlos for your wonderful post.

Ethan :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( you are not the only one crying if i keep crying like this during work they would start thinking something is going on with me.

chameau · « **Reply #14 on:** May 10, 2006, 10:27 PM »

Thank you Carlos :'( :'( :'( :'(

Quote

Jack loved Ennis so much to the point that he had to set him free.

Who is not going to bed now but gonna watch that scene with story to screenplay on his lap?

It's all your fault Carlos and Ethan if I'll be a mess at work tomorrow :'(

Don't worry guys, I assume my decisions

Patriot1 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 10, 2006, 11:48 PM »

Quote from: Carlos_H82 on May 10, 2006, 08:53 PM

Ennis is his sacred realm his soul is only and only Jack knows that but Ennis doesn't, he don't know that Jack love him more than anything that only a minute with him is a paradise for jack and I'm gonna quote a part of the short story when they were at the motel "Come on Ennis, you just shot my airplane out a the sky---give me something a go on" he was aware that he wanted Ennis so badly.

"I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest...." What is the rest? it is not about Randall or the Mexican prostitutes it is about how they missed each other, how they deeply love and how their souls went to a higher state of unity that can't allow them to be appart, how he love him and how he wanted to tell him that. how much he wanted to be with him and spent his last days with him ( :'( :'( :'( :'() jack was telling in a hidden language I love you bastard why you don't want to be with me. he was aware that Ennis was in denial of accepting his love toward him and he wanted to make him wake up of that state. this words hit him and were the ones that caused him to cry it was truth Ennis understood it but too late.....

For as long as I have lived, I NEVER thought I would ever see the day a straight man would make me cry talking about a gay subject. I come to this forum and not one, not two, but three straight men have managed to do just that.

Carlos, I don't know if your analysis of Jack's statement to Ennis is correct or not, but it sure sounded great to me. All you said seemed to fit the situation perfectly. How did you get so smart when it comes to gay men?

Thank you for a beautiful post Carlos.

Kemmer · « **Reply #16 on:** May 10, 2006, 11:58 PM »

I can't accept that Jack was going to set Ennis free. From the very start--the first reunion--Jack was ready to chuck everything in order to build a life with Ennis. Jack had 20 years invested in Ennis; if Jack had ever had second thoughts about finding someone else, he would have done it long ago. We need to try thinking in terms of 1963-83. I was 19 in 1963, same as Jack and Ennis, and I would rather have died than admit I was a queer or had someone call me a queer. And I was born and raised in California.
Jack didn't tell Ennis about Aguirre seeing them on the mountain to protect him; they were both always protecting each other. But when Mexico came up, this was Jack's last strategy to force Ennis to admit the truth and finally commit to the rest of their lives together.
Jack had played around in Texas and Mexico, but never lost the love he had for Ennis. Ennis lived in a self-imposed fishbowl and was going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of it if they were going to have a life together.

Jack may have planned to use Randall as his weapon of last resort. If he had brought Randall back to the Twist ranch, he surely would have let Ennis know about it, and I'm sure that would have been the turning point. If Ennis would have shown the slightest anger at the Jack/Randall arrangement, Randall would be history and forgotten by dinnertime. Even though Ennis was wishy-washy about committment, he surely threatened to kill Jack if he ever found out about his playing around in Mexico or elsewhere. That is what I think Jack had in mind by bringing Randall to the Twist's.

Jack was the other half of Ennis, and Ennis was the other half of Jack; I think that became a reality shortly after the first reunion.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 11, 2006, 12:31 AM »

Quote from: Kemmer on May 10, 2006, 11:58 PM

Jack may have planned to use Randall as his weapon of last resort. If he had brought Randall back to the Twist ranch, he surely would have let Ennis know about it, and I'm sure that would have been the turning point. If Ennis would have shown the slightest anger at the Jack/Randall arrangement, Randall would be history and forgotten by dinnertime. Even though Ennis was wishy-washy about committment, he surely threatened to kill Jack if he ever found out about his playing around in Mexico or elsewhere. That is what I think Jack had in mind by bringing Randall to the Twist's.

Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?

tpe · « **Reply #18 on:** May 11, 2006, 06:57 AM »

Quote from: Carlos_H82 on May 10, 2006, 08:53 PM

"I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest...." What is the rest? it is not about Randall or the Mexican prostitutes it is about how they missed each other, how they deeply love and how their souls went to a higher state of unity that can't allow them to be appart, how he love him and how he wanted to tell him that. how much he wanted to be with him and spent his last days with him ( :'( :'( :'( :'() jack was telling in a hidden language I love you bastard why you don't want to be with me. he was aware that Ennis was in denial of accepting his love toward him and he wanted to make him wake up of that state. this words hit him and were the ones that caused him to cry it was truth Ennis understood it but too late.....

Beautifully put. I could never have said it any better than this.

Thanks Carlos_H82.

tpe · « **Reply #19 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:06 AM »

Quote from: Kemmer on May 10, 2006, 11:58 PM

I can't accept that Jack was going to set Ennis free. From the very start--the first reunion--Jack was ready to chuck everything in order to build a life with Ennis. Jack had 20 years invested in Ennis; if Jack had ever had second thoughts about finding someone else, he would have done it long ago. We need to try thinking in terms of 1963-83. I was 19 in 1963, same as Jack and Ennis, and I would rather have died than admit I was a queer or had someone call me a queer. And I was born and raised in California.
Jack didn't tell Ennis about Aguirre seeing them on the mountain to protect him; they were both always protecting each other. But when Mexico came up, this was Jack's last strategy to force Ennis to admit the truth and finally commit to the rest of their lives together.
Jack had played around in Texas and Mexico, but never lost the love he had for Ennis. Ennis lived in a self-imposed fishbowl and was going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of it if they were going to have a life together.

Jack may have planned to use Randall as his weapon of last resort. If he had brought Randall back to the Twist ranch, he surely would have let Ennis know about it, and I'm sure that would have been the turning point. If Ennis would have shown the slightest anger at the Jack/Randall arrangement, Randall would be history and forgotten by dinnertime. Even though Ennis was wishy-washy about committment, he surely threatened to kill Jack if he ever found out about his playing around in Mexico or elsewhere. That is what I think Jack had in mind by bringing Randall to the Twist's.

Jack was the other half of Ennis, and Ennis was the other half of Jack; I think that became a reality shortly after the first reunion.

This thread is getting more and more deep. Thanks Kemmer for sharing your opinion.

I do think there is no real contradition with what you believe in and the idea that Jack was setting Ennis free. As I had mentioned in other posts, I do believe what dies in that last meeting was Jack's hope for a shared life with Ennis -- Jack's love for Ennis will never die. In this sense, Jack was willing to let go of his dream and move one, secure in his love for Ennis. It must have been painful for Jack to relinquish his dream, but he probably thought this was the only recourse that would save Ennis all the conflicted feelings and pain he revealed in that last meeting.

Your comment about Randall being a last recourse has indeed been raised in some other threads, and I do think it is also as plausible as any of the other explanations here. Again, the many avenues we can take with just this one statement from Jack informs us of the incredible richness of both the movie and the story.

Thanks again.

tpe · « **Reply #20 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:09 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on May 11, 2006, 12:31 AM

Quote from: Kemmer on May 10, 2006, 11:58 PM
Jack may have planned to use Randall as his weapon of last resort. If he had brought Randall back to the Twist ranch, he surely would have let Ennis know about it, and I'm sure that would have been the turning point. If Ennis would have shown the slightest anger at the Jack/Randall arrangement, Randall would be history and forgotten by dinnertime. Even though Ennis was wishy-washy about committment, he surely threatened to kill Jack if he ever found out about his playing around in Mexico or elsewhere. That is what I think Jack had in mind by bringing Randall to the Twist's.

Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?

Hello Patriot1. Yes, IMO, such as scenario does indeed put Jack in a bad light. But I personally am intrigued of this possibility, as implied in my last post. Your deduction is indeed a disturbing corollary to accepting this scenario as plausible...

Patriot1 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:15 AM »

Quote from: tpe on May 11, 2006, 07:09 AM

Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?

Hello Patriot1. Yes, IMO, such as scenario does indeed put Jack in a bad light. But I personally am intrigued of this possibility, as implied in my last post. Your deduction is indeed a disturbing corollary to accepting this scenario as plausible...

Quote

Do you think Jack could ever do anything like that to anyone?

Jack is a good person.

donnaread · « **Reply #22 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:18 AM »

Quote from: ethan on May 10, 2006, 03:14 PM

"Tell you what, we could of had a good life together, a f***in' real good life, had a place of our own. You wouldn't want it, Ennis, so what got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that. It's all we got, boy, f***in' all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest....."

What could Jack mean by the rest? Any thought?

The rest - how much love Jack was giving Ennis?

I always thought it was a reference to what Ennis said about what goes on in Mexico, but your last line could be right "...how much love Jack was giving Ennis". Ennis is ALWAYS hurting Jack, and just like a puppy that's been kicked, Jack comes right back for more. Perhaps Jack means that Ennis doesn't even realize what Jack goes through to keep their relationship going...1400 miles trips two or three times a year, and never having the life Jack wants with Ennis. Unfortunately Ennis only makes this sad realization after Jack is dead...when he finds out from Jack's dad that Jack always talked about Ennis to his parents, and of course when the found the shirts. "Too late, then, by a long, long while" He finally realizes how much Jack loved him.

Donna :'(

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:20 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on May 11, 2006, 07:15 AM

Quote from: tpe on May 11, 2006, 07:09 AM
Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?

Hello Patriot1. Yes, IMO, such as scenario does indeed put Jack in a bad light. But I personally am intrigued of this possibility, as implied in my last post. Your deduction is indeed a disturbing corollary to accepting this scenario as plausible...
Quote

Do you think Jack could ever do anything like that to anyone?

Jack is a good person.

Personally, I believe that Jack did let go as far as the dream of a shared life was concerned. I interprest Jack's iinvolvement with Randall in this light: to set Ennis free and try to salvage something of his dream. I expect that not everyone will share this opinion.

I do so love Jack. It breaks my heart just to think of the alternative possibility. I would not want to believe it.

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #24 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:29 AM »

Patriot, well i don't know how i know about gay men maybe observation? i'm really good on that but anyway i just said what i understand from both the movie and the short story.

about jack planning this well, i do think jack is a good person but desperate people tend to do desperate things and well sometimes they do things that are actually away from their regular behavior. who knows but maybe as kemmer said Randall was his last ace to make ennis wake up but i don't think he was referring to that but it could be? yes IMO jack was desperate and with hope lost so those two little factors could influence anyone.

Jack is a good perso we know that but when someone is in love everything is permited. like Maquiavello said once "El fin justifica los medios"

Kemmer · « **Reply #25 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:36 AM »

Quote

Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?

Jack an uncaring person? No; Jack was driven to desperation to have Ennis in the life he's always dreamt of---a life that would have made Ennis happy if somehow, something could have overcome his fears and dragged him into it. I see Randall as a cypher. Randal was obviously not in love with his wife; she was a marriage of convenience and against his nature just as Alma and Lureen were to Jack and Ennis. Jack had already devoted 20 years of his life to Ennis, and I don't believe he would have hesitated to use Randal as a ruse to convince Ennis that it was at long last decision time.

Ennis and Jack had a history of two decades; Randall was a fling. Nobody knows Randall's feelings in the matter. Love for Jack? Too soon. His first real "natural" sexual relationship? Probably. Notice that Jack's parents never heard from Randall after Jack's death.

frances · « **Reply #26 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:48 AM »

Quote from: Kemmer on May 11, 2006, 07:36 AM

Quote
Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?

Jack an uncaring person? No; Jack was driven to desperation to have Ennis in the life he's always dreamt of---a life that would have made Ennis happy if somehow, something could have overcome his fears and dragged him into it. I see Randall as a cypher. Randal was obviously not in love with his wife; she was a marriage of convenience and against his nature just as Alma and Lureen were to Jack and Ennis. Jack had already devoted 20 years of his life to Ennis, and I don't believe he would have hesitated to use Randal as a ruse to convince Ennis that it was at long last decision time.

Ennis and Jack had a history of two decades; Randall was a fling. Nobody knows Randall's feelings in the matter. Love for Jack? Too soon. His first real "natural" sexual relationship? Probably. Notice that Jack's parents never heard from Randall after Jack's death.

Randal a fling? Of course

Randal a ruse to convince Ennis? Don't know, actually

Maybe he represents for Jack the occasion, the way, the (useless?) try to move on, to quit Ennis, to have "somethin' he doesn't hardly never get"

shieldmaid · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:52 AM »

Quote from: Kemmer on May 11, 2006, 07:36 AM

Jack an uncaring person? No; Jack was driven to desperation to have Ennis in the life he's always dreamt of---a life that would have made Ennis happy if somehow, something could have overcome his fears and dragged him into it. I see Randall as a cypher. Randal was obviously not in love with his wife; she was a marriage of convenience and against his nature just as Alma and Lureen were to Jack and Ennis. Jack had already devoted 20 years of his life to Ennis, and I don't believe he would have hesitated to use Randal as a ruse to convince Ennis that it was at long last decision time.

Ennis and Jack had a history of two decades; Randall was a fling. Nobody knows Randall's feelings in the matter. Love for Jack? Too soon. His first real "natural" sexual relationship? Probably. Notice that Jack's parents never heard from Randall after Jack's death.

Kemmer, I have to agree with you here. People do change after 20 years; it's inevitable. Naturally Jack feels at least a little bitter about his relationship with Ennis, which had the potential to become much richer and more rewarding than it did in reality. It's not surprising to me that he would resort to manipulation to get a reaction out of Ennis. If Ennis had responded to him with more openness, Jack would never have felt the need to seek out Randall's companionship at all. I'm not saying that Jack gave up on Ennis--it's clear that his passion and commitment to him are still very strong. But he is using the means available to him to get what he can out of his life--to get some response from Ennis, still his biggest priority. And that's a great point about Randall--he never really has a voice in this story, so we have no way of knowing what he really felt about Jack, their relationship, its consequences, etc.

This section for me really highlights the tragedy of their relationship. It's heartbreaking.

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #28 on:** May 11, 2006, 07:55 AM »

Quote from: donnaread on May 11, 2006, 07:18 AM

Quote from: ethan on May 10, 2006, 03:14 PM
"Tell you what, we could of had a good life together, a f***in' real good life, had a place of our own. You wouldn't want it, Ennis, so what got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that. It's all we got, boy, f***in' all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest....."

What could Jack mean by the rest? Any thought?

The rest - how much love Jack was giving Ennis?
I always thought it was a reference to what Ennis said about what goes on in Mexico, but your last line could be right "...how much love Jack was giving Ennis". Ennis is ALWAYS hurting Jack, and just like a puppy that's been kicked, Jack comes right back for more. Perhaps Jack means that Ennis doesn't even realize what Jack goes through to keep their relationship going...1400 miles trips two or three times a year, and never having the life Jack wants with Ennis. Unfortunately Ennis only makes this sad realization after Jack is dead...when he finds out from Jack's dad that Jack always talked about Ennis to his parents, and of course when the found the shirts. "Too late, then, by a long, long while" He finally realizes how much Jack loved him.

Donna :'(

I think it's a bit of both. When Jack says "I did once" to Ennis asking if Jack has a better idea, Ennis's reply "You did once" seems (to me anyway), kind of sarcastic, then he asks about Mexico. Ennis may well be gay, but he's also homophobic, and probably believes the stereotype about gay men being promiscuous and unable to be faithful, so his comeback to Jack, asking him about Mexico, could be saying that them living together would never have worked anyway because Jack would ineveitably have been unfaithful at some point. That angers Jack, because he only ever really wanted Ennis, but Ennis never even gave him a chance to prove it

So to me, "the rest" means Mexico, Randall (and anyone else there might have been along the way), and it also means Jack's years of unfulfilled love and longing to be with Ennis :'( I think Jack is saying that "the rest" doesn't matter anyway, because it only happened because Ennis woudn't commit to him in the first place

coguaro · « **Reply #29 on:** May 11, 2006, 08:08 AM »

In my opinion the rest is every single think that Ennis renounced because of his fears! Jack is accusing Ennis because of failing their love and he tell that Ennis will never know what could mean to live a love in reality and not only in some rare occasions in the mountains.