Author Topic: Jack's love for Ennis  (Read 129856 times)

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #390 on: Jan 26, 2007, 03:35 PM »

to die of love or to die for love or to die because of love or to die for lack of love...

Perhaps in this case they all apply.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

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The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #391 on: Jan 26, 2007, 03:39 PM »
please do explain this to me. being of german language i would like to know what it means fo renglish speaking people - it must have a different significance than in german..
to die of love or to die for love or to die because of love or to die for lack of love...

It means "love-death".  It is widely associated with Wagnerian Opera, especially the last scene of Tristan & Isolde.  Wagner connects this with the character Isolde's verklärung (coming to clarity), and is tied with the idea of redemption in death through love.  It can be thought of then as a struggle (and resolution) between love and death.

Eli Siegel put it best:


Something like struggle is needed by the human being.  Something even like discontent is needed by the human being. ….One cannot think of a world made up of smooth roads strewn with roses and bordered by exceedingly accessible marshmallows.  The world, like the human body, is a compound of resistance and ease, obstruction and going forward, obstacle and companion.



« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2007, 03:45 PM by tpe »

Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #392 on: Jan 26, 2007, 07:31 PM »
It means "love-death".  It is widely associated with Wagnerian Opera, especially the last scene of Tristan & Isolde.  Wagner connects this with the character Isolde's verklärung (coming to clarity), and is tied with the idea of redemption in death through love.  It can be thought of then as a struggle (and resolution) between love and death.

Eli Siegel put it best:


Something like struggle is needed by the human being.  Something even like discontent is needed by the human being. ….One cannot think of a world made up of smooth roads strewn with roses and bordered by exceedingly accessible marshmallows.  The world, like the human body, is a compound of resistance and ease, obstruction and going forward, obstacle and companion.


Thomas, this is great.  I love the yin/yang of it; and especially when the human body (and the body of the Earth, we could say, and in physical mechanics, and everything) is given as an example, one can really get this, how necessary is the ease and resistance, etc.  Also "divine anxiety" as I believe Alan Watts would speak of.  Anyway, this yin/yang element is certainly relevant in the portrait of Ennis and Jack.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #393 on: Jan 26, 2007, 07:45 PM »
Thomas, this is great.  I love the yin/yang of it; and especially when the human body (and the body of the Earth, we could say, and in physical mechanics, and everything) is given as an example, one can really get this, how necessary is the ease and resistance, etc.  Also "divine anxiety" as I believe Alan Watts would speak of.  Anyway, this yin/yang element is certainly relevant in the portrait of Ennis and Jack.

kathy

Love it, kathy.  It is a "divine anxiety" -- the feeling as if you either fall into a precipice or fly up to the heavens.  It is the tug and pull of forces within the Heart.  Gravity and repulsion mixed into one.  But always from the Heart.  Always to the Heart.

That's it, really.  That's Jack's love for Ennis.


Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #394 on: Jan 27, 2007, 01:59 PM »
Well said, Thomas.  The Heart is at the center of the Universe.  Certainly as pertains to Ennis and Jack.

So, is this topic closed?  Is yours the final answer to this sublime question?  I'm sure not -- plenty more we can say about Jack's love for Ennis.  A love that will never grow old...

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #395 on: Jan 29, 2007, 10:07 AM »
Well said, Thomas.  The Heart is at the center of the Universe.  Certainly as pertains to Ennis and Jack.

So, is this topic closed?  Is yours the final answer to this sublime question?  I'm sure not -- plenty more we can say about Jack's love for Ennis.  A love that will never grow old...

kathy

Far from it, kathy.  The Heart is a vast, mysterious thing.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #396 on: Jan 29, 2007, 12:49 PM »
It lasted twenty years, but Jack's love for Ennis never really had a chance to grow old. The ss talks about the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings - I wonder what would have happened when the physical desire, which is a very strong binding influence, died away with age.

Offline lamusica

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #397 on: Jan 29, 2007, 01:04 PM »
That's a very interesting question,ww.  I'd like to think that by the time they were too old to get the full charge ( and what age would that be????) they would have been so attached to one another, they still would meet just to spend time together and reminisce.  The other bonds may have kicked in, so to speak, since they are already evident in the 20 years they are together.  They share a love of the wilderness and camping.  They seem to chat freely; they must have some things in common besides physical needs.  Good question to ponder.
"Let's put a SSSSMILE on your faceeee!"

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #398 on: Jan 29, 2007, 02:53 PM »
I think so too lamusica. They were about so much more than sex. Otherwise Jack could have found what he needed in many other places. They were comfortable together, enjoyed each other's company, and of course (whether either of them ever said it or not) were in love. I believe that if it had ever had the chance to grow in the open, their love would have stood the test of time.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #399 on: Jan 29, 2007, 03:39 PM »
It lasted twenty years, but Jack's love for Ennis never really had a chance to grow old. The ss talks about the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings - I wonder what would have happened when the physical desire, which is a very strong binding influence, died away with age.

Like many happily married couples, I would think that they would have moved beyond the physical and begin to feel like one and the same person.  I do think Jack said it as much when he contemplated the dozy embrace.



Offline JT

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #400 on: Jan 29, 2007, 05:36 PM »
I think their relationship have already gone beyond physical desire, even near the beginning.  As you recall, Jack wanted not only sex, but that sweet life that he so longing for.  Yes, the desire is still there after 20 years, but they behave like an old couple like they are--sharing and complaining about things.  I agree with you, Thomas, regarding the dozy embrace.  It showed us the true nature of Jack's love.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #401 on: Jan 29, 2007, 06:01 PM »
I think their relationship have already gone beyond physical desire, even near the beginning.  As you recall, Jack wanted not only sex, but that sweet life that he so longing for.  Yes, the desire is still there after 20 years, but they behave like an old couple like they are--sharing and complaining about things.  I agree with you, Thomas, regarding the dozy embrace.  It showed us the true nature of Jack's love.

Yes.  The dozy embrace did happen back in 63, no?  At that early stage, they had moved beyond sex.  That's why Jack remembered and craved it the most.




Offline carbyville

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #402 on: Jan 29, 2007, 06:17 PM »
Yes.  The dozy embrace did happen back in 63, no?  At that early stage, they had moved beyond sex.  That's why Jack remembered and craved it the most.





Not only that, but there is the saying "Sex is better when you're in love." So while yes, Jack could have gone and filled his sexual desires elsewhere, it never would compare to sex with Ennis because of the bond they had both physical and emotional.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #403 on: Jan 29, 2007, 06:57 PM »
Not only that, but there is the saying "Sex is better when you're in love." So while yes, Jack could have gone and filled his sexual desires elsewhere, it never would compare to sex with Ennis because of the bond they had both physical and emotional.

Yes, Jack's love for Ennis can't be separated from Ennis himself, no?  It's because of Ennis that the sex was good, and travelling the distance was worth it, and dreaming of a shared life was desirable...

This reminds me of the old thread: what was it that made Jack love Ennis.  This question is tied to the understanding of Jack's love.


Offline mama

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #404 on: Feb 06, 2014, 10:02 AM »
I was well past my tenth viewing before I noticed that Jack took off HIS scarf while trying to tend to the dried blood on Ennis's face.  One minute before, he was mad because there was nothing to eat. Next thing...he's concerned about Ennis. :'( :'(
True :_( :_(

Offline mama

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #405 on: Feb 06, 2014, 10:04 AM »
I fell like almost everything he does, he does out of love for Ennis (even if that means letting him go).  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(
Yes  poor jake :_(

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #406 on: Feb 06, 2014, 11:33 PM »
Welcome mama.   ^f^


It's hard not to cry for them, isn't it? Unrequited love is one thing; it hurts but can be moved past and healed from. Love unrealized is much worse. It's there for both parties but unallowed to grow and breathe free. So it lives in their hearts but stifled from what it could have been.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline thunderwolf

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #407 on: Jun 18, 2014, 03:20 PM »
I think so too lamusica. They were about so much more than sex. Otherwise Jack could have found what he needed in many other places. They were comfortable together, enjoyed each others company, and of course (whether either of them ever said it or not) were in love. I believe that if it had ever had the chance to grow in the open, their love would have stood the test of time.

Hmm, much is said about them not saying they love each other. In fact, Love is only used once in the film, but Ennis to Alma Jr. But, lets take stock. They've maintained a relationship over 20 years, spend more or less 49-50 / 52 weeks a year apart, yet still long and ache to be each other. They both feel the same, although Jack is the dreamer, and Ennis is rooted into the ground. They don't need to say it.

I believe, from reading the story, that if Jack hadn't died prematurely they'd be together forever. Whether that was just 2 or 3 times a year in the middle of nowhere, or maybe, when times became more enlightened, properly. Either way, their love would have lasted always. I don't believe they'd have ever have parted, no matter who they ended up with the other 49/50 weeks of the year. Their hearts where forever, locked. <^(

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #408 on: Jul 01, 2014, 12:32 AM »
I agree.

I think Ennis sending the postcard to meet up again tells us that he was prepared to continue the ride as long as it would take them, and as hard as it was for him to be without Ennis, I think Jack would have been back. A little piece of him might have died every year as the disappointment grew that they couldn't have a life together but I think he would have come back nevertheless.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #409 on: Jul 01, 2014, 09:44 AM »
I agree.

I think Ennis sending the postcard to meet up again tells us that he was prepared to continue the ride as long as it would take them, and as hard as it was for him to be without Ennis, I think Jack would have been back. A little piece of him might have died every year as the disappointment grew that they couldn't have a life together but I think he would have come back nevertheless.

I agree Jack would be back, and even the disappointment bit, but I am also hopeful, that with time, had Jack lived, with the girls marrying and Ennis no longer paying child support, the two of them would meet up in the Twist Ranch on Jack's visits, and eventually take over when his Pa passes. Jack was only staying with Lureen for Bobby's sake. He already said he'd take any settlement money and start a cow and calf operation with Ennis. So as soon as Ennis is free, and as society evolves, you can bet those two would spend more and more time together.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lzara23

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #410 on: Dec 16, 2014, 01:34 PM »
Hello everyone  :h}
Well... Jack's love is the strogest and most beautiful expression I've seen in a movie and I've read many books and seen a lot of love stories, but these are the most touching scenes for me ...  ^f^ if I had to choose three, they would be:
Jack feels attracted by Ennis in my opinion as soon as he sees him for the first time (he's just staring at him from the side mirror), like a crush (because Ennis is so hot, we all can see that)
After that the scene where Ennis is "having a bath/shower/whatever that is" he just peeling that potatoe and swallowing like nervous... it's just so sweet.
And of course the second tent scene, so soft, sweet, hot, passionate, lovely, tender...  <^(
 Jack's face of dissapointment when he went to see Ennis after "the divorce", and when Eniis tells him that "he ain't queer"...  ^f^
What do you think?  }s{

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #411 on: Dec 16, 2014, 02:43 PM »
Hi Izara23.  :) Welcome to the forum.


Those were definitely compelling moments in the movie. I would add another to that list. At the final confrontation, when Jack has unleashed all of his frustrations and heartaches onto Ennis and Ennis tells him "I'm nothing; I'm nowhere" it only takes a moment for Jack's demeanor to change. His anger and hurt drop away as he instinctively reaches out to comfort Ennis in his moment of pain. To me, that's the essence of Jack's love for Ennis. That he was always willing to take what Ennis was able to give and seemed to recognize, as much as it frustrated him, that that was the case, that Ennis was giving what he was able and never withheld anything for any other reason.

This is why I love these characters so much. They were just simple people doing the best they could with what they had.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline lzara23

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #412 on: Dec 16, 2014, 03:01 PM »
Hi Izara23.  :) Welcome to the forum.
Hi! thanks! but  I have to say that is L Zara, it's from my doggy, she is a labrador retriever and her name is Zara, 23 is my age , LabradoraZara23 would be the whole compound  ^f^
That moment is specially heartbreaking, something moves inside of me whenever I see Jack's reaction when Ennis starts crying  :_( so sad and touching. Jack has a different way of showing his feelings that makes us melt.
Another moment, although Jack is not physically present on it, is when Ennis goes to Jack parents' house (excuse my english please) and his father starts speaking about how Jack was always talking about Ennis del Mar and their plans together  <^( :_(

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #413 on: Dec 16, 2014, 10:30 PM »
 #$# to the forum Izara23! :h} :c)

I agree with you that the love between Ennis and Jack is truly beautiful. They are so different and yet resonate so well together, the ying and yang of love. Jack is so open and outpouring of the moment, full of hope and dreams for the future. Ennis is closed and stingy except at SNIT, damped up by fears from images of the past. Yet, together the two balances into perfect harmony, with their feet on the ground while dreaming of ranches in the clouds.

Jack loves without judgment and reservation. Ennis loves without ending and deviation. Jack may go to Mexico but Ennis held on to those few fleeting days in the middle of nowhere a few times a year, even when they cost him everything, for years. Jack is the flint that sparks the roaring fire in the steady hearth in Ennis.

The love between Ennis and Jack is definitely as you said, one of the most beautiful in cinematic history.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lzara23

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #414 on: Dec 22, 2014, 12:35 PM »
Thanks for the welcome lancecowboy, and I love how you describe Ennis and Jack's love as two components totally different but at the same time necessary to one another (ying& yang) Beautiful descripted.
I've realised watching the movie again  {b} that there's another scene which is my favourite, just 2 o 3 seconds, no words, just Jack washing Ennis' shirt, that is love, and it is just the day after the first tent scene,  :_( Jack is so adorable  :^^)
There is also one thing I've been thinking about:
Why do you think Jack is so decided to start a sexual intercourse with Ennis at the tent? I mean, he just doesn't know what was going to be his reaction, or do you think that Jack has interpreted Ennis' attitude (the fact that he stays and gets drunk)  as a possible "Yes"?
I think that Jack was drunk and finally decided to do something that maybe would have been harder in another situation, but I think he would have tried it anyway. What do you think??  :^^)
« Last Edit: Dec 22, 2014, 12:46 PM by lzara23 »

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #415 on: Dec 22, 2014, 04:18 PM »
Hi, Izara, Jack's hope is eternal where bluebirds sing next to a whisky spring, so he always think his next love is the one. It's the reason for his riding more than bulls in the rodeo circuit, and doing more than tequila shots in Mexico. Jack doesn't need no reason nor encouragement. It gets him into trouble, like with the rodeo clown, and possibly Randall, but he hit gold with Ennis, who loves one and only one, with his whole heart and soul.

That's what I love about Ennis, and Ennis/Jack. One is hope, the other is faith, together their love makes both of them better.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline rimasworld

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Re: Jack's love for Ennis
« Reply #416 on: Dec 22, 2014, 04:21 PM »
I think their feelings for each other had been building up. They had been together a month when this happened in the tent. (Notice the full moon when they set up camp the first time and then again in the tent scene) Ang Lee put in subtle things like that through out the film. I think Jack took the opportunity of Ennis staying with him that night and just kind of went for it not knowing what would happen. For all he knew it could have been total rejection, but you never know until you try and I think Ennis gave him little hints that he was interested too.