Author Topic: Ennis and Jacks mum  (Read 15959 times)

Offline Rønnaug

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Ennis and Jacks mum
« on: May 16, 2006, 04:12 AM »
The things we think about in the shower huh?

I just started thinking about Ennis and Jacks mum.... It is obvious that these two people understand eachother.

Ennis has Jack Sr. figured out and I think he totally understands how repressed Mrs Twist is... he knows it before arriving , sees it while he is there and I think that is the only reason he don't beat the crap out of Jack Sr and just takes the ashes. He doesn't wan to cause her more pain.

Jacks mum knows ( I know we might disagree here but I am convinced she does) who Ennis is and what he meant to Jack. Therefore she sends him to Jacks room so he can find the shirts. Again I know we disagree but I think she does this intentionally.

So this all came to me while I was taking a shower, and the question I was left with was this

Another place, another time, with no Jack Sr. present, would Enis and Mrs Twist have talked about Jack? Would they have been able to grieve together? It is obvious to me that Jacks mum misses Jack and would love to both grieve with Ennis and have him around. I am not sure... both beaten down by their surroundings for so many years, would they have been able to open up and find commfort and perhaps friendship eachother?
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2006, 05:12 AM »
The things we think about in the shower huh?

I just started thinking about Ennis and Jacks mum.... It is obvious that these two people understand eachother.

Ennis has Jack Sr. figured out and I think he totally understands how repressed Mrs Twist is... he knows it before arriving , sees it while he is there and I think that is the only reason he don't beat the crap out of Jack Sr and just takes the ashes. He doesn't wan to cause her more pain.

Jacks mum knows ( I know we might disagree here but I am convinced she does) who Ennis is and what he meant to Jack. Therefore she sends him to Jacks room so he can find the shirts. Again I know we disagree but I think she does this intentionally.

So this all came to me while I was taking a shower, and the question I was left with was this

Another place, another time, with no Jack Sr. present, would Enis and Mrs Twist have talked about Jack? Would they have been able to grieve together? It is obvious to me that Jacks mum misses Jack and would love to both grieve with Ennis and have him around. I am not sure... both beaten down by their surroundings for so many years, would they have been able to open up and find commfort and perhaps friendship eachother?

Esme, there is no doubt in my mind the answer to your question is, absolutely yes.  Ennis is her son-in-love if not her son-in-law.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2006, 05:17 AM »
Ennis is her son-in-love if not her son-in-law.

I like that ...son-in-love

But I am still not sure... :)
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Offline NoReins

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2006, 05:18 AM »
That's a yes from me too. Jack's mum (sorry, mom!) would happily have talked to Ennis about Jack if her husband hadn't been there. I think that's what she means when she tells Ennis to come back and see them again - maybe hoping that she'll get a chance to talk to him about how much they both loved Jack (and how much Jack loved them)
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2006, 05:38 AM »
I like that ...son-in-love

Yes, so do I.  I didn't realize it when I wrote it but now that I see it...I like it also.

Quote from: Esme
But I am still not sure... :)

What is it you are not sure of and why?

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2006, 05:44 AM »
Like I said

... both beaten down by their surroundings for so many years...

I am not sure they could put it into words...at least Ennis... he don't even tell Jack!
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2006, 05:50 AM »
Like I said

... both beaten down by their surroundings for so many years...

I am not sure they could put it into words...at least Ennis... he don't even tell Jack!

But, you know something, and I have no evidence to support this at all so it is nothing but my opinion, I think Jack would sit and tell his mother all about this wonderful guy named Ennis.  I think he told her what his father did to him when he was 9.  I think he told her how much he loved him.  I think he told her about the shirts and what they mean. And that is why she smiled and nodded when Ennis came down with the shirts in his hand.  She knew what they meant to Jack and would mean to Ennis.

One of the things that allows me to believe this is because of Mr. Twist.  She was never connected to him, a part of his life.  She has nobody except Jack to talk to. 

But, like I said, no evidence, just my opinion.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2006, 07:11 AM »
Another place, another time, with no Jack Sr. present, would Enis and Mrs Twist have talked about Jack? Would they have been able to grieve together? It is obvious to me that Jacks mum misses Jack and would love to both grieve with Ennis and have him around. I am not sure... both beaten down by their surroundings for so many years, would they have been able to open up and find commfort and perhaps friendship eachother?

Yes.

Mrs. Twist appears to me as a woman of deep faith, and although she probably would never have openly approved of the relationship, she probably understood.  Why?  Because I believe Mrs Twist understood the need to love and be loved.  The remoteness of Mr. Twist (her not being able to share her husband's world) probably made her know how valuable all this was.  She probably knew how much Jack loved Ennis, and I suspect that she probably knew that Ennis loved her son in equal measure. 

Their mutual love for Jack would have been a common bond that nobody can take away from them.



Offline Kindred

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2006, 07:23 AM »
I'm not sure she would have openly spoken to Ennis.  If she did understand him at all, she might have respected his fear of being openly gay and not brought up the issue.  Besides, as we saw from the movie, much can be said between two people without a word being spoken.  A look can say a thousand words.

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2006, 07:44 AM »
I'm not sure she would have openly spoken to Ennis.  If she did understand him at all, she might have respected his fear of being openly gay and not brought up the issue.  Besides, as we saw from the movie, much can be said between two people without a word being spoken.  A look can say a thousand words.

Hello Kindred.  I do believe they probably would never have been able to talk openly about the relationship.  It would not be like Ennis or Mrs. Twist to do this.  But they would have talked about Jack: his life, his sensitivity, his caring, his joy, and his sorrows.   I am sure both knew about the relationship, but there was no need to verbalize this.  But their mutual recognition of this would have served as a foundation to talk about the person they so dearly loved.

And, indeed, a look can say a thousand words.



Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2006, 08:26 AM »

Hello Kindred.  I do believe they probably would never have been able to talk openly about the relationship.  It would not be like Ennis or Mrs. Twist to do this.  But they would have talked about Jack: his life, his sensitivity, his caring, his joy, and his sorrows.   I am sure both knew about the relationship, but there was no need to verbalize this.  But their mutual recognition of this would have served as a foundation to talk about the person they so dearly loved.

And, indeed, a look can say a thousand words.


Tpe, I can picture this just as you have written.  One of the great sorrows for Ennis at the end is the realization that he had no one, no one who knew Jack or of his feelings for him, that he could talk to, no one to grieve with him, no one to whom he could acknowledge the extent of his loss or the source of his pain.  He would have found that with Mrs. Twist, someone to remember and immortalize Jack with.  It's a comfort to think they would have made room in each others lives to do this, one for the other.  In my heart I'm sure Ennis would have seen Mrs. Twist again and been welcomed.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2006, 09:08 AM »
Tpe, I can picture this just as you have written.  One of the great sorrows for Ennis at the end is the realization that he had no one, no one who knew Jack or of his feelings for him, that he could talk to, no one to grieve with him, no one to whom he could acknowledge the extent of his loss or the source of his pain.  He would have found that with Mrs. Twist, someone to remember and immortalize Jack with.  It's a comfort to think they would have made room in each others lives to do this, one for the other.  In my heart I'm sure Ennis would have seen Mrs. Twist again and been welcomed.


Thanks you MississaugaRed

As long as Ennis and Mrs. Twist live, Jack also lives.



Offline Kindred

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2006, 10:25 AM »

Hello Kindred.  I do believe they probably would never have been able to talk openly about the relationship.  It would not be like Ennis or Mrs. Twist to do this.  But they would have talked about Jack: his life, his sensitivity, his caring, his joy, and his sorrows.   I am sure both knew about the relationship, but there was no need to verbalize this.  But their mutual recognition of this would have served as a foundation to talk about the person they so dearly loved.

And, indeed, a look can say a thousand words.



Mrs. Twist may have spoken more about Jack, but I personally think Ennis' side of the conversation would have been more along the lines of "We was fishing buddies."  I don't think Ennis would have dropped his facade, even in this highly emotional situation.  It just isn't in his character to open himself up emotionally, and certainly not at the risk of revealling his true feelings for Jack. 

If it were just Mrs. Twist and Ennis talking, I still think the conversation would have been somewhat phoney.  Both may understand the situation before them, but neither would let on.  But I do think a knowing glance, a gently hand on the shoulder in consolation, would have said it all between them.

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2006, 10:37 AM »
Mrs. Twist may have spoken more about Jack, but I personally think Ennis' side of the conversation would have been more along the lines of "We was fishing buddies."  I don't think Ennis would have dropped his facade, even in this highly emotional situation.  It just isn't in his character to open himself up emotionally, and certainly not at the risk of revealling his true feelings for Jack. 

If it were just Mrs. Twist and Ennis talking, I still think the conversation would have been somewhat phoney.  Both may understand the situation before them, but neither would let on.  But I do think a knowing glance, a gently hand on the shoulder in consolation, would have said it all between them.

Perhaps you are more pragmatic here kindred, than I am wont to be.

But I somehow feel that a mother's love and a lover's loss may be enough to bridge the gap.

I think Ennis was able to talk about Jack with Lureen, and Lureen was certainly not receptive.  I even think he may have been unaware of the growing coldness from the other side.

I have had the sadness of going to funerals of desceased friends.  In a lot of cases where I did not know the family that well, the conversation was almost purely about the deceased.  In a lot of cases, the conversation was most formal, and the emotions hidden under the veil of decorum.

But I have been blessed in some cases when a mother or a brother or a sister reached out the extra distance to connect with what had been a part of the departed's life.

In the case of gay friends, I had found this exceptionally so in some cases.

It has never failed to move me.


Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2006, 11:34 AM »
I'm not sure she would have openly spoken to Ennis.  If she did understand him at all, she might have respected his fear of being openly gay and not brought up the issue.  Besides, as we saw from the movie, much can be said between two people without a word being spoken.  A look can say a thousand words.

Hello Kindred.  I do believe they probably would never have been able to talk openly about the relationship.  It would not be like Ennis or Mrs. Twist to do this.  But they would have talked about Jack: his life, his sensitivity, his caring, his joy, and his sorrows.   I am sure both knew about the relationship, but there was no need to verbalize this.  But their mutual recognition of this would have served as a foundation to talk about the person they so dearly loved.

And, indeed, a look can say a thousand words.




I think they would have been able to open up to each other- even if it's only a little. I think they both needed someone to greive with. I don't think they would have gone too in depth about Ennis and Jack's relationship but I think that was part of the reason she told Ennis to come back- to have someone to talk to. I'm sure it could have been the polite thing to say but I think she meant it. Mrs. Twist and Ennis are each a link to this person they loved so much.
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2006, 12:38 PM »

I think they would have been able to open up to each other- even if it's only a little. I think they both needed someone to greive with. I don't think they would have gone too in depth about Ennis and Jack's relationship but I think that was part of the reason she told Ennis to come back- to have someone to talk to. I'm sure it could have been the polite thing to say but I think she meant it. Mrs. Twist and Ennis are each a link to this person they loved so much.

So true, LJN, I absolutely agree with your assessment of this, and Tpe's.

There is that look on Mrs. Twist's face that suggests (to me at least) that this invitation was more than a social politiness.

The moment of connection that she and Ennis are sharing as John tells them that Jack is going in the family plot, and the way her hand comes defensively up to her throat, as if John's words are suffocating her...I think her asking Ennis to come again was as much a plea for his company and compassion as it was an offering of her own to him.  She seems as isolated in her grief as Ennis.

Somehow I don't see John Twist being able to offer much in the way of comfort to his wife.  I may be completely off the mark, granted, and many generous souls here are able to see Mr. Twist with more kindness than I've been able to extend him.  That's likely a fault in me, this not being able to see any softness there that I can connect with, so won't say that it couldn't possibly exist, only that I am blind to it .. . :-\

I think Ennis may be Mrs. Twist's best hope to preserve an image of the Jack she most wants to remember. Not as seen through the eyes of a disappointed father, or a disillusioned wife or even the fatherless son he left behind, but through the eyes of someone who had just simply loved him, long and deeply.
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Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2006, 12:49 PM »
I think Ennis may be Mrs. Twist's best hope to preserve an image of the Jack she most wants to remember. Not as seen through the eyes of a disappointed father, or a disillusioned wife or even the fatherless son he left behind, but through the eyes of someone who had just simply loved him, long and deeply.

Yes...yes yes yes.... I agree, such a wonderful way of saying it

I still however, do no think at least Ennis could have opened up to her..someone said his part of the conversation was likly to be "we was fishin'buddies" and I think that is true... (hands hurt..write more later)
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Offline Toadily

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2006, 12:51 PM »
The genius of that scene is nothing is said, but we know.  And it's so sad and beautiful.
I think even if Mr Twist wasn't there they wouldn't have said much.  No need.
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2006, 01:18 PM »

I still however, do no think at least Ennis could have opened up to her..someone said his part of the conversation was likely to be "we was fishin'buddies" and I think that is true... (hands hurt..write more later)

True, Esme, there likely would not have been much discussion on the circumstances under which Ennis came to know Jack so well.  Such things don't need to be openly acknowledged to be accepted, I think.  As Toadily noted, not a lot of need for words, under some circumstances. 

I think, though, that Ennis would eventually be able to speak with Mrs. Twist of Jack (his fishin' buddy  :) )  without giving away the farm, so to speak.

Who knows ... maybe we're selling both Mrs. T. and Ennis short in the being forthcoming department.  She did acknowledge his right to the shirts, without question.  Their natures, the time, the social climate, etc. all points to a big "no way" ... but people surprise you sometimes.  Guess I can leave that particular likelihood at the far end of the "possible" spectrum. :)
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Offline Toadily

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2006, 01:41 PM »
I know it's been discussed here already, but I think putting the shirts into a bag was significant, like Ennis
left with what he came with when he met Jack, a shirt in a bag.  He came full circle really.
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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2006, 01:43 PM »
I know it's been discussed here already, but I think putting the shirts into a bag was significant, like Ennis
left with what he came with when he met Jack, a shirt in a bag.  He came full circle really.
That's a wonderful way of putting it - full circle. A shirt and a lifetime of memories in a paper bag  :'(

Offline Toadily

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2006, 01:45 PM »
Right it's kind of like that is what we all do, we leave with what we came with in the end.
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2006, 01:47 PM »
I know it's been discussed here already, but I think putting the shirts into a bag was significant, like Ennis
left with what he came with when he met Jack, a shirt in a bag.  He came full circle really.

True!  The visuals - first Ennis against Aguirre's work trailer with the paper bag, wainting to enter (start that life, with Jack) and then him framed against the Twist's house, leaving (the end of his corporeal life with Jack).

You just gave me goose bumps, Toadily; the purity of that circle, it makes what Jack's mom did for Ennis seem sacred, doesn't it?
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My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline Toadily

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2006, 01:59 PM »
I know it's been discussed here already, but I think putting the shirts into a bag was significant, like Ennis
left with what he came with when he met Jack, a shirt in a bag.  He came full circle really.

True!  The visuals - first Ennis against Aguirre's work trailer with the paper bag, wainting to enter (start that life, with Jack) and then him framed against the Twist's house, leaving (the end of his corporeal life with Jack).

You just gave me goose bumps, Toadily; the purity of that circle, it makes what Jack's mom did for Ennis seem sacred, doesn't it?

Exactly, and remember his Mom believes in the Pentacost.
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2006, 04:04 PM »
Exactly, and remember his Mom believes in the Pentacost.

 ;D "What exactly is the Pentacost?? I mean, my folks, they was Methodist."  ;D
Sorry .. wrong thread, but couldn't resist. :)

Although, I seriously don't know anything about the belief set of the Pentacost or the implications for Mrs. Twist in this situation. 
???

Red Alert!! Not remotely suggesting a religious discussion here, 'cause that way leads to madness, just curious about this strickly in the context of Mrs. Twist & Jack/Ennis in BBM, since the subject was raised within the story ... no can opened & no worms anywhere, please!  ;D

It surely didn't stop her loving your son, or accepting Ennis's place in his life, whatever else it may have meant to her. If it lead to her part in Toadily's sacred circle, then peace be. :)
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2006, 05:10 PM »
Having lost her son, Jack's mother welcomes a son who has lost his mother and father. She loves Jack, Jack loved Ennis and Ennis Jack. so that's another circle she could complete, if she took Ennis, her only contact with both her son and with her emotions, and together they commemorated Jack. The shirts she must recognise as having had a significance to Jack that she doesn't entirely understand; I like to think that once Ennis arrives she makes the connection and gives him the shirts because they are his link, not hers, with Jack, and because she knows he'll treat them like a sort of relic - they hold the blood of her son, shed by the one he loved, all that was left after the rest was spilled by his killers.
As Ennis leaves she turns her back on John Twist, as a symbol, I think, of her rejection of him and his lack of love, and looks after the departing Ennis, who is now her only link with the past and the future.
 

Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2006, 05:14 PM »
Welshwitch that was beautiful :) I think it is very true... but I still don't think they would say these things out loud... I think they are very similar in that they beste communicate non verbally, and mostly because thay haven't had much need, reason to, been allowed to be verbal...
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Offline CrimsonSky

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2006, 06:22 PM »
Thanks to everyone who's posted in this thread, some beautiful posts there :) And tpe, "son-in-love" - love it :)

I haven't really got much to add, except that I too would like to think that Ennis kept in touch with Jack's mum, and that they were able to share their grief with each other, and help each other to cope with Jack's loss. I'd also like to think that Jack's mum would talk Jack's dad round and give the ashes to Ennis, but that's probably wishful thinking :(
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2006, 07:55 PM »

I think Ennis may be Mrs. Twist's best hope to preserve an image of the Jack she most wants to remember. Not as seen through the eyes of a disappointed father, or a disillusioned wife or even the fatherless son he left behind, but through the eyes of someone who had just simply loved him, long and deeply.

Well said Miss-Red. I'm still not sure if I think Ennis would open up completely about his relationship with Jack. Mrs. Twist knew those shirts were something special to her son and by Ennis taking them she knew why, if she didn't know before hand; so there is that silent acknowledgement. She was so kind to him by sending him up to Jack's room- to give him a place to cry because the stud duck was certainly not making it easy on Ennis. She gave him the best gift in the world with those shirts- Ennis got a final "I love you. I've always loved you" from Jack.  I think they would forge some type of relationship because IMO they are the only two people who truly knew and loved Jack for who he was.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Ennis and Jacks mum
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2006, 07:56 PM »
Having lost her son, Jack's mother welcomes a son who has lost his mother and father. She loves Jack, Jack loved Ennis and Ennis Jack. so that's another circle she could complete, if she took Ennis, her only contact with both her son and with her emotions, and together they commemorated Jack. The shirts she must recognise as having had a significance to Jack that she doesn't entirely understand; I like to think that once Ennis arrives she makes the connection and gives him the shirts because they are his link, not hers, with Jack, and because she knows he'll treat them like a sort of relic - they hold the blood of her son, shed by the one he loved, all that was left after the rest was spilled by his killers.
As Ennis leaves she turns her back on John Twist, as a symbol, I think, of her rejection of him and his lack of love, and looks after the departing Ennis, who is now her only link with the past and the future.
 

So beautifully stated Welshwitch!
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon