Topic: "Not so lonely like you were raised"

[christie wood]

I've often wondered what Ennis is thinking when Alma says "not so lonely like you were raised", in the bedroom scene when she's trying to seduce Ennis into agreeing to move to town. 

For most of that scene, Ennis has his eyes closed, taking in the touches of Alma and responding in kind to her words, but when she says that line, he seems to stop himself, open his eyes, and look off, like he's thinking of something in relation to those words.

For what it's worth, I think Ennis is thinking about Jack.  How Jack stopped him feeling lonely up on Brokeback.  How it could only ever be Jack to stop him feeling lonely.  How he would always be lonely without Jack.

What do others think about that scene?

[tpe]

A very interesting take, Christie.  Indeed, he did seem to start up.  I had never connected this as you do here. 

And he did seem to try to avoid the issue/thought once he said 'Come here...' to her and begins to make love to Alma  It is as if he is pushing back some innermost thought -- back into the depths of his heart.  He is trying to suppress something here -- at least this part I caught early on.

Thanks.

[christie wood]

A very interesting take, Christie.  Indeed, he did seem to start up.  I had never connected this as you do here. 

And he did seem to try to avoid the issue/thought once he said 'Come here...' to her and begins to make love to Alma  It is as if he is pushing back some innermost thought -- back into the depths of his heart.  He is trying to suppress something here -- at least this part I caught early on.

Thanks.

Yes tpe, thats EXACTLY what he tries to do.  One minute thinking about Jack, but with Alma right there, what is he supposed to do?  Do what he always does, push Jack away and get on with what he's stuck with.  But of course, we know that Jack musn't be too far from his mind when he turns Alma over.....

That point between Alma saying "not so lonely..." and Ennis saying "come here", I get a sense of Ennis resigning himself to the task in hand.  He thinks about Jack and lonliness, but knows Alma is waiting, so he thinks "ok, I've got to do this now".....and turns to kiss her.

Ennis is such a tortured soul, and this is another clear example of his turmoil.

[tpe]

Yes tpe, thats EXACTLY what he tries to do.  One minute thinking about Jack, but with Alma right there, what is he supposed to do?  Do what he always does, push Jack away and get on with what he's stuck with.  But of course, we know that Jack musn't be too far from his mind when he turns Alma over.....

That point between Alma saying "not so lonely..." and Ennis saying "come here", I get a sense of Ennis resigning himself to the task in hand.  He thinks about Jack and lonliness, but knows Alma is waiting, so he thinks "ok, I've got to do this now".....and turns to kiss her.

Ennis is such a tortured soul, and this is another clear example of his turmoil.

Christie, Ennis is such a complex character driven by feelings that almost seem to rip him apart.  It is amazing to see how this little scene seems to reveal so much nuance, as you had originally pointed out.

There is a lot of subtlety involved in these very delicate signals played between Alma and Ennis.  What I can say is that Heath and Michelle played this to the hilt -- no loss of subtlety, and yet no subtlety too obscure...

[proulxfan]

I had noticed Ennis's response to this line, and had interpreted it to be his reflection back to the loneliness of his own childhood, and the sudden realization that here he was imposing the same isolation on his wife and daughters. These two interpretations can be complementary, though. I like your take on this Chrissy. 

[stacp]

I've often wondered what Ennis is thinking when Alma says "not so lonely like you were raised", in the bedroom scene when she's trying to seduce Ennis into agreeing to move to town. 

For most of that scene, Ennis has his eyes closed, taking in the touches of Alma and responding in kind to her words, but when she says that line, he seems to stop himself, open his eyes, and look off, like he's thinking of something in relation to those words.

For what it's worth, I think Ennis is thinking about Jack.  How Jack stopped him feeling lonely up on Brokeback.  How it could only ever be Jack to stop him feeling lonely.  How he would always be lonely without Jack.

What do others think about that scene?

I agree, Christie.  I think Ennis was definitely thinking about Jack there.  Ennis is reflecting on how lonely he feels without Jack, even with Alma cuddling right behind him.  He then makes love to Alma, trying to forget about Jack (but we all know how weak an attempt that was).  I think this scene sort of mirrors the scene with Jack and Lureen dancing.  Jack is attempting to move on and forget about Ennis, but we see that faraway look in his eyes when he is dancing with Lureen. He is no doubt thinking about Ennis and how much he misses and loves him.

[NoReins]

I've often wondered what Ennis is thinking when Alma says "not so lonely like you were raised", in the bedroom scene when she's trying to seduce Ennis into agreeing to move to town. 

For most of that scene, Ennis has his eyes closed, taking in the touches of Alma and responding in kind to her words, but when she says that line, he seems to stop himself, open his eyes, and look off, like he's thinking of something in relation to those words.

For what it's worth, I think Ennis is thinking about Jack.  How Jack stopped him feeling lonely up on Brokeback.  How it could only ever be Jack to stop him feeling lonely.  How he would always be lonely without Jack.

What do others think about that scene?

I agree, Christie.  I think Ennis was definitely thinking about Jack there.  Ennis is reflecting on how lonely he feels without Jack, even with Alma cuddling right behind him.  He then makes love to Alma, trying to forget about Jack (but we all know how weak an attempt that was).  I think this scene sort of mirrors the scene with Jack and Lureen dancing.  Jack is attempting to move on and forget about Ennis, but we see that faraway look in his eyes when he is dancing with Lureen. He is no doubt thinking about Ennis and how much he misses and loves him.

Christie and Karen - I totally agree. Alma's words definitely make Ennis think of Jack and how much he misses him. He tries to "stand it" by kissing Alma but now that he's started thinking of Jack, he can't stop and he flips Alma over,  imagining it's Jack there with him.

I like the idea of the mirror between this scene and Jack and Lureen dancing - never really thought about it, but you're right Karen. They both get that faraway look in their eyes, each thinking of the other and wishing that they were together instead of stuck in "acceptable" relationships.

[christie wood]

This is the moment I'm talking about.

[tpe]

I like the idea of the mirror between this scene and Jack and Lureen dancing - never really thought about it, but you're right Karen. They both get that faraway look in their eyes, each thinking of the other and wishing that they were together instead of stuck in "acceptable" relationships.

Yes.  This strikes a chord in me.

[LuvJackNasty]

I like the parallels between Jack and Lureen dancing and this scene.

It always reminded me of the dozy embrace- here Ennis has his eyes closed and Alma comes up from behind him and puts her arms around him much like he did to Jack.

[stacp]

I like the parallels between Jack and Lureen dancing and this scene.

It always reminded me of the dozy embrace- here Ennis has his eyes closed and Alma comes up from behind him and puts her arms around him much like he did to Jack.

Only it's Jack he wants holding him, not Alma.   :'(  :'(  :'(

[MississaugaRed]

Only it's Jack he wants holding him, not Alma.   :'(  :'(  :'(

After reading all your posts I paid more attention than usual to this scene when I watched BBM yesterday.  Not only is he likely thinking of Jack, has anyone else noticed how he really hesitates before leaning back to kiss Alma?  He starts to turn to her, stops, seems to have to pull himself together. It's like he's bracing himself to face the reality of who it is behind him there on that bed - not the person he's longing for.

Such play of emotion across Ennis's face ... tormented, resigned.  Can't believe I didn't give this moment the weight it deserves before ...    Thanks for sharing!

[NoReins]

Only it's Jack he wants holding him, not Alma.   :'(  :'(  :'(

After reading all your posts I paid more attention than usual to this scene when I watched BBM yesterday.  Not only is he likely thinking of Jack, has anyone else noticed how he really hesitates before leaning back to kiss Alma?  He starts to turn to her, stops, seems to have to pull himself together. It's like he's bracing himself to face the reality of who it is behind him there on that bed - not the person he's longing for.

Such play of emotion across Ennis's face ... tormented, resigned.  Can't believe I didn't give this moment the weight it deserves before ...    Thanks for sharing!

You know, I've just thought of something here. I think you're absolutely right that he hesitates before turning to kiss her, maybe trying to remove thoughts of Jack from his mind so that Alma won't see something in his eyes....and there's a parallel there with the dozy embrace and how Jack remembers it. He recalls Ennis holding him from behind, not wanting to see that it's Jack he holds....which is almost exactly the same as here where Ennis doesn't want to see that it's Alma he's with.

Now, the dozy embrace obviously took place prior to this scene, so is it the case that Ennis is finally accepting that he's in love with Jack here? He's obviously thinking of him, can't face looking at Alma, can't be "normal" with her - doing everything but shouting out Jack's name.

Or am I just rambling?

[christie wood]

Only it's Jack he wants holding him, not Alma.   :'(  :'(  :'(

After reading all your posts I paid more attention than usual to this scene when I watched BBM yesterday.  Not only is he likely thinking of Jack, has anyone else noticed how he really hesitates before leaning back to kiss Alma?  He starts to turn to her, stops, seems to have to pull himself together. It's like he's bracing himself to face the reality of who it is behind him there on that bed - not the person he's longing for.

Such play of emotion across Ennis's face ... tormented, resigned.  Can't believe I didn't give this moment the weight it deserves before ...    Thanks for sharing!

You know, I've just thought of something here. I think you're absolutely right that he hesitates before turning to kiss her, maybe trying to remove thoughts of Jack from his mind so that Alma won't see something in his eyes....and there's a parallel there with the dozy embrace and how Jack remembers it. He recalls Ennis holding him from behind, not wanting to see that it's Jack he holds....which is almost exactly the same as here where Ennis doesn't want to see that it's Alma he's with.

Now, the dozy embrace obviously took place prior to this scene, so is it the case that Ennis is finally accepting that he's in love with Jack here? He's obviously thinking of him, can't face looking at Alma, can't be "normal" with her - doing everything but shouting out Jack's name.

Or am I just rambling?

Ramble away, Lindsey, because your rambles make a lot of sense!   

I agree with both you and MississaugaRed about this part of the scene - Ennis definitely hesitates before turning to Alma....it's like he has to quickly snap back to the present, after drifting off to the memory of Brokeback and Jack, and force himself to give Alma what she wants.  It's all done in a split second, but that moments hesitation, tells us so much. 

I'm not sure if it is at this particular moment that Ennis realises he's in love with Jack - for me, that happened when he had to leave Jack and he collapsed in the alleyway.  But it is probably a moment when his love for Jack is reaffirmed - and knowing that he is then expected to make love to Alma, the only way he can do that is the way he did it with Jack.   :\'(

Has anyone else noticed how, when Ennis and Alma are lying on the bed, Alma says "come here" a couple of times to Ennis?  IMHO, I took this to be Alma trying to keep Ennis where he was (facing her), so he wouldn't turn her over.  You can see from her face how much she hates it.

[stacp]

Ramble away, Lindsey, because your rambles make a lot of sense!   

I agree with both you and MississaugaRed about this part of the scene - Ennis definitely hesitates before turning to Alma....it's like he has to quickly snap back to the present, after drifting off to the memory of Brokeback and Jack, and force himself to give Alma what she wants.  It's all done in a split second, but that moments hesitation, tells us so much. 

I'm not sure if it is at this particular moment that Ennis realises he's in love with Jack - for me, that happened when he had to leave Jack and he collapsed in the alleyway.  But it is probably a moment when his love for Jack is reaffirmed - and knowing that he is then expected to make love to Alma, the only way he can do that is the way he did it with Jack.   :'(

Has anyone else noticed how, when Ennis and Alma are lying on the bed, Alma says "come here" a couple of times to Ennis?  IMHO, I took this to be Alma trying to keep Ennis where he was (facing her), so he wouldn't turn her over.  You can see from her face how much she hates it.

Great posts, everyone.   I have noticed Alma saying "come here."  You can tell the flipping has happened before, and she is trying to steer Ennis from doing it again.  She sounds almost desperate; you can tell she wants to feel a connection and some intimacy with Ennis that being flipped doesn't allow her to feel.  I think she senses something is wrong, but she probably can't put her finger on it.  I think Alma really loved Ennis; his heart, however, belonged to Jack.   :'(

[mactwck]

I agree, Alma does know something is going on with Ennis, and I think when she sees the kiss in the doorway, everything clicks, the lightbulb comes on, and suddenly everything makes "sense".  She had to realize then that she never really had Ennis heart, Jack has it.  Why she tried for years to ignore what she saw I"ll never know.

[stacp]

I agree, Alma does know something is going on with Ennis, and I think when she sees the kiss in the doorway, everything clicks, the lightbulb comes on, and suddenly everything makes "sense".  She had to realize then that she never really had Ennis heart, Jack has it.  Why she tried for years to ignore what she saw I"ll never know.

I don't think anything in Alma's background prepared her for what she saw the day of the reunion.  I'm sure the idea of homosexuality was foreign to her; all she knew was probably what she learned at church and that it was a one way ticket to hell.  She probably didn't really even believe what she saw; that's probably why she put the note on the hook to be sure.  Also, I'm sure she was from a day and age where divorce wasn't common; you stayed married, come hell or high water.  Plus, I think she truly loved Ennis and wanted it to work out if for nothing else but the girls.  But she eventually had enough and finally let him have it.    Can't blame her there.

[mactwck]

Well she confronts him after the divorce, Jack Nasty! She says stop trying to fool me.  I think was very angry for a long time.  All those trips, the lost jobs, etc...and I bet he never kissed her the way she saw him kiss Jack.

[NoReins]

Well she confronts him after the divorce, Jack Nasty! She says stop trying to fool me.  I think was very angry for a long time.  All those trips, the lost jobs, etc...and I bet he never kissed her the way she saw him kiss Jack.

I think that's a certainty mactwck.

[Patriot1]

There was something else I noticed in this scene.  When Ennis was pretending that Alma was Jack, he didn't use any spit.  He dove in dry.  Maybe someone with some experience can tell me, wouldn't that hurt like hell...for both of them?

[stacp]

There was something else I noticed in this scene.  When Ennis was pretending that Alma was Jack, he didn't use any spit.  He dove in dry.  Maybe someone with some experience can tell me, wouldn't that hurt like hell...for both of them?

I am glad somebody said it . . .  I sure as hell thought it!  I don't have experience in this particular "area," but without any lube at all, I'm sure it was not comfortable at all for her as a woman.  Then, after the "I'd have them if you'd support them" bedroom scene, Ennis stops being intimate with Alma altogether.  You think this was the final straw for Alma? 

[boo_boo]

I found the whole "not so lonely" scene was a bit manipulative on Alma's part.  Sweet talking a man while in bed to get what you want.  Or maybe that was that the only down time they had to talk.  I'm still not sure, but I do think he was thinking about Jack when she said that about being lonely.

[ande_nem]

That definitely was the final straw in my opinion. Despite her knowing everything about Jack and what they did when they went "fishing" together, she still loved Ennis and I don't think she ever stopped loving him. And because she was in love with him, she wanted to be intimate with him, and when she heard him say that he'd "be happy to leave her alone" that upset her a hell of a lot, so despite still being in love with him, she knew she had to get a divorce and find someone who loved her back. I don't think she realised until that moment that Ennis could never love her the way he loved Jack. I think she always had some sort of hope in the back of her mind, but that was all lost. Kinda sad, really.

[stacp]

I found the whole "not so lonely" scene was a bit manipulative on Alma's part.  Sweet talking a man while in bed to get what you want.  Or maybe that was that the only down time they had to talk.  I'm still not sure, but I do think he was thinking about Jack when she said that about being lonely.

I do think Alma was using her sexuality in the "not so lonely" scene to try to get what she wanted.  Little did she know it probably wouldn't work with  Ennis.  I think it works only after she brings up Jenny having "them bad asthma spells" and talking about having kids for Jr. to play with.  Ennis had a soft spot for those girls.  Maybe she's being manipulative, but I think that's too strong a word.  Urging him or stating her case maybe, and yes, they happen to be in the bedroom.  Happens a lot in relationships.

[Sunflower79]

That definitely was the final straw in my opinion. Despite her knowing everything about Jack and what they did when they went "fishing" together, she still loved Ennis and I don't think she ever stopped loving him. And because she was in love with him, she wanted to be intimate with him, and when she heard him say that he'd "be happy to leave her alone" that upset her a hell of a lot, so despite still being in love with him, she knew she had to get a divorce and find someone who loved her back. I don't think she realised until that moment that Ennis could never love her the way he loved Jack. I think she always had some sort of hope in the back of her mind, but that was all lost. Kinda sad, really.

I agree she still had some hope that he still loved her and wanted to be her..I think she may also wanted her daughters to have some kids to play with. I think (I could be wrong though) that she mentions the lack of playmates for her daughters and wants them to have other kids to play with. I think she was wanted to see if he would agree based on thier children for playmates..

she didn't want her kids to grow up lonely..or she could have been refereing to being lonely herself and being in an loveless marriage.
She may have been trying to save the marriage even though she knew it couldn't be saved..that her husband loved Jack and couldn't love her.  The part about leaving her alone was probally the straw that did..everything up to that point and all that happend finally told her that this marriage wasn't going to work and it was time to get out..Its very sad indeed..

This scene and others make this movie true to life and the time period as well..where marriage was expected, and so having children. Most people can relate to love, and having your hopes dashed. Both of thier hopes in a way were dashed..Her hopes for a loving husband and his for happy life with the man he truly loved but was afraid to take that final step. The human emotions, conflicts, sorrow, and joy make this movie so wonderful and heartbreaking.

[edgar]

By the way, Alma was right on the idea of moving to town.
1. Yes, the kids need other kids to play with.
2. Closer to doctor, grocery store, etc.
3. Alma could get a job and walk to work to help with finances.
4. Alma would not be stuck alone all day, could have some social life.

[Patriot1]

Some here seem to believe that in the "not so lonely" scene, Alma knew about Jack already.  She didn't.  She learned about Jack when they moved into town.

[CrimsonSky]

Ramble away, Lindsey, because your rambles make a lot of sense!   

I agree with both you and MississaugaRed about this part of the scene - Ennis definitely hesitates before turning to Alma....it's like he has to quickly snap back to the present, after drifting off to the memory of Brokeback and Jack, and force himself to give Alma what she wants.  It's all done in a split second, but that moments hesitation, tells us so much. 

I'm not sure if it is at this particular moment that Ennis realises he's in love with Jack - for me, that happened when he had to leave Jack and he collapsed in the alleyway.  But it is probably a moment when his love for Jack is reaffirmed - and knowing that he is then expected to make love to Alma, the only way he can do that is the way he did it with Jack.   :'(

Has anyone else noticed how, when Ennis and Alma are lying on the bed, Alma says "come here" a couple of times to Ennis?  IMHO, I took this to be Alma trying to keep Ennis where he was (facing her), so he wouldn't turn her over.  You can see from her face how much she hates it.

Great posts, everyone.   I have noticed Alma saying "come here."  You can tell the flipping has happened before, and she is trying to steer Ennis from doing it again.  She sounds almost desperate; you can tell she wants to feel a connection and some intimacy with Ennis that being flipped doesn't allow her to feel.  I think she senses something is wrong, but she probably can't put her finger on it.  I think Alma really loved Ennis; his heart, however, belonged to Jack.   :'(

I agree with all the above. Another telling moment in that scene is when Ennis turns the light out (he wasn't shy about doing it in broad daylight with Jack ), it's like he's doing everything he can to pretend that it's not Alma who's there with him. The way the scene cuts to the next scene of Jack bursting out of the gate, riding a bull, I've always thought was supposed to show what(or rather, who) Ennis was thinking about

[shieldmaid]

I agree with all the above. Another telling moment in that scene is when Ennis turns the light out (he wasn't shy about doing it in broad daylight with Jack ), it's like he's doing everything he can to pretend that it's not Alma who's there with him. The way the scene cuts to the next scene of Jack bursting out of the gate, riding a bull, I've always thought was supposed to show what(or rather, who) Ennis was thinking about

That's exactly what I think!  As everyone pointed out, there are a lot of visual parallels between Ennis's and Jack's pain over their separate lives--and I think it's brilliant how Ang Lee managed to show what each one really wants.  Ennis wants Alma to be Jack; Jack would rather be with Ennis than riding the bulls.  But when Jack bursts out of the gate we can really see the continuing force of their love for one another.

[welshwitch]

Going back a few posts, yes, what Ennis did to Alma, without any preparation/lubrication must have been painful - speaking from experience here. But that may be part of it - he was desperate? Or he didn't consider her as he did Jack - even in the throes of intense desire he did stop to spit...And he evidently knew Alma hated it but it was Jack he wanted there, not her. He knew it wasn't to do with her - "This ain't her fault" he says to Jack later - but he couldn't help how he felt. He doesn't meet her eyes, as he often doesn't - afraid of what they'd betray?