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Author Topic: Ennis's use of "proud".  (Read 21037 times)

Offline welshwitch

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Ennis's use of "proud".
« on: Jul 20, 2006, 05:56 AM »
Looking again at the last scene and analyzing the text I was struck by Ennis's statement that he's be " proud" to take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback - he could easily have said " pleased" or " happy" or even "willing". Ennis is a man of very few adjective so I wondered if he was trying to convey something particular here. Was this an even-very-indirect statement about his relationship with Jack? Or an indication of his changed attitude to it?
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Offline Rosie

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #1 on: Jul 20, 2006, 06:01 AM »
Hi welshwitch,
what a fantastic new post. You've given me a lot to think about! Never picked up on this before - need to think about it!
Rosie.
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Offline stacp

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #2 on: Jul 20, 2006, 06:44 AM »
Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 05:56 AM
Looking again at the last scene and analyzing the text I was struck by Ennis's statement that he's be " proud" to take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback - he could easily have said " pleased" or " happy" or even "willing". Ennis is a man of very few adjective so I wondered if he was trying to convey something particular here. Was this an even-very-indirect statement about his relationship with Jack? Or an indication of his changed attitude to it?

Welshwitch, this is a great observation.  I can't say that I've honed in on it before either, but now that you mention it, I think there is some significance to it.  "Proud" is such a strong word; implies no shame involved.  Maybe Ennis was just trying to convey to Jack's folks how much he wanted those ashes and how much he respected Jack (and hence, how much Jack meant to him).  I know Jack's Mom got it, and I think the old bastard did, too.  That's probably why John Sr. decided not to give the ashes to Ennis.  One last insult to his son.  Just thinking out loud.   ;)Great question!
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Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #3 on: Jul 20, 2006, 06:56 AM »
Is it an indirect statement of remorse?  Is he now showing his willingness to acknowledge at least his friendship and deep affection for Jack out in the open?  Perhaps.  It is a touching gesture.   Perhaps it indirectly reveals more than friendship and affection.  Perhaps it reveals his love.

« Last Edit: Jul 20, 2006, 07:23 AM by tpe »
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Offline Rosie

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #4 on: Jul 20, 2006, 07:14 AM »
I agree with whats been said already. I think he was saying to Jacks dad that he was proud of Jack, - Jack was a wonderful man worthy of being proud of -  even if the old man couldn't see it. I hope that he's saying finally that he is proud to have had Jacks love and is no longer ashamed of it, himself or Jack. BTW in the movie it seems as though they changed this from 'proud' to 'happy'. What a shame. This is one of those posts that has brought something extra to the movie for me. Something I missed before, but now seems so lovely.
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Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
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The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

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Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #5 on: Jul 20, 2006, 07:19 AM »
Just thinking back to the after the divorce scene... he wasn't tough enough to be proud of Jack then. Beeing proud of Jack in Jacks dads face would be a pretty buig growth on Ennis' part I think.

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 05:56 AM
he could easily have said " pleased" or " happy" or even "willing". Ennis is a man of very few adjective so I wondered if he was trying to convey something particular here.

I think you are on to something here... Man of few words that he is I think he uses the words that says exactly what he means, when he can..and he has had a long drive to think about his choise of words, on the drive up.

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Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #6 on: Jul 20, 2006, 11:06 AM »
Quote from: stacp on Jul 20, 2006, 06:44 AM
Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 05:56 AM
Looking again at the last scene and analyzing the text I was struck by Ennis's statement that he's be " proud" to take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback - he could easily have said " pleased" or " happy" or even "willing". Ennis is a man of very few adjective so I wondered if he was trying to convey something particular here. Was this an even-very-indirect statement about his relationship with Jack? Or an indication of his changed attitude to it?

Welshwitch, this is a great observation.  I can't say that I've honed in on it before either, but now that you mention it, I think there is some significance to it.  "Proud" is such a strong word; implies no shame involved.  Maybe Ennis was just trying to convey to Jack's folks how much he wanted those ashes and how much he respected Jack (and hence, how much Jack meant to him).  I know Jack's Mom got it, and I think the old bastard did, too.  That's probably why John Sr. decided not to give the ashes to Ennis.  One last insult to his son.  Just thinking out loud.   ;)Great question!

Ennis was not sure how Jack actually died (accident or tire iron), but he believes it was the tire iron.  His parents (especially Jack's dad) may know the truth...Lureen may have lied to Ennis, but would she also lie to Jack's own parents about what really happened to him?

When a person is murdered the family may feel it is a stigma and/or a reflection on them and try to hide the fact.  If John Twist  believed Jack was killed for his homosexuality, then he might not feel like he should carry out Jack's wishes regarding his ashes

I think Ennis saying he would be proud to take Jack's ashes to Brokeback implied that he loved and respected Jack and  didn't judge what happened or how Jack died and he was willing to honor Jack in death no matter what.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #7 on: Jul 20, 2006, 11:10 AM »
Quote from: jesseanne21 on Jul 20, 2006, 11:06 AM
I think Ennis saying he would be proud to take Jack's ashes to Brokeback implied that he loved and respected Jack and  didn't judge what happened or how Jack died and he was willing to honor Jack in death no matter what.

Yes.  I think so too.

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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #8 on: Jul 20, 2006, 11:38 AM »
Ennis was letting the parents know that he was proud of the love he and Jack shared . Indeed a big step in his greiving process. But the old man is so hard and spiteful. The guy has a real control prolem. He controls his wife,tried to control Ennis's feeflings ,and ultimately Jack's ashes. That's why I was so proud when Ennis came down with the shirts, and passed the old man , he made a gesture as if to say: DON"T EVEN TRY TO STOP ME from taking these shirts.The interaction between Ennis and Jack's mom  endeared me to both of them.
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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #9 on: Jul 20, 2006, 01:02 PM »
This is a great thread BTW!

Ennis had a very good idea of the nature of the relationship between Jack and his father - he never taught him a thing, never went to see him ride, i think Jack sought validation from his father, following in his footsteps to some degree, but it was never forthcoming.

Knowing this i think Ennis was in some way validating Jack to the old man. He was a man he had been proud to know, regardless of the relationship between them. Ennis wanted Jack's dad to know his son wasn't just a waste of space, that's why he made it plain he would perform this final task with pride. Jack had been worth it.

Also maybe it was a sense of Ennis getting one over on Jack's dad. Dad wasn't interested and look what he missed out on - a relationship with a son other men would be proud of knowing, and now it's too late to start trying. I love Ennis for this now!
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #10 on: Jul 20, 2006, 01:28 PM »
I have to think too, that by using the word "proud" he was speaking in his heart to Jack, and likely regretting that he had never told Jack that he was proud to know him, proud to love and be loved by him, when he had the chance.

Ennis does say "happy" in the movie ... still acknowledging Jack's value to him, although less direct.  I think maybe movie-Ennis was just too broken at this point to have taken it further.  He's barely holding it together long enough to get out the words he does speak, without using words that would make him even more aware of what he withheld from Jack in life.  The verbal acknowledgement of his worth to Ennis. 

may be way off base ....
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Offline NoReins

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #11 on: Jul 20, 2006, 01:57 PM »
Quote from: MississaugaRed on Jul 20, 2006, 01:28 PM
I have to think too, that by using the word "proud" he was speaking in his heart to Jack, and likely regretting that he had never told Jack that he was proud to know him, proud to love and be loved by him, when he had the chance.

Ennis does say "happy" in the movie ... still acknowledging Jack's value to him, although less direct.  I think maybe movie-Ennis was just too broken at this point to have taken it further.  He's barely holding it together long enough to get out the words he does speak, without using words that would make him even more aware of what he withheld from Jack in life.  The verbal acknowledgement of his worth to Ennis. 

may be way off base ....

You're breaking my heart here :\'( Not way off base at all....
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #12 on: Jul 20, 2006, 08:05 PM »
Beautiful thread!  :\'( Ennis could no longer deny to himself that he denied Jack that sweet life.  I think he realized that his fear made Jack feel that he was ashamed of him and what that did to Jack. After getting that post card there was no way he could set things right or tell Jack that he wasn't ashamed of him or their love. It was a huge step for him to go to Jack's parents house in the first place- he could have retreated into his shell. He was trying to give to Jack in death what he refused him in life-being proud to love and be loved by Jack.
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Offline stacp

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #13 on: Jul 20, 2006, 10:54 PM »
Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Jul 20, 2006, 08:05 PM
Beautiful thread!  :\'( Ennis could no longer deny to himself that he denied Jack that sweet life.  I think he realized that his fear made Jack feel that he was ashamed of him and what that did to Jack. After getting that post card there was no way he could set things right or tell Jack that he wasn't ashamed of him or their love. It was a huge step for him to go to Jack's parents house in the first place- he could have retreated into his shell. He was trying to give to Jack in death what he refused him in life-being proud to love and be loved by Jack.

Amen.  Beautiful, LuvJackNasty.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #14 on: Jul 21, 2006, 07:37 AM »
Quote from: stacp on Jul 20, 2006, 10:54 PM
Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Jul 20, 2006, 08:05 PM
Beautiful thread!  :\'( Ennis could no longer deny to himself that he denied Jack that sweet life.  I think he realized that his fear made Jack feel that he was ashamed of him and what that did to Jack. After getting that post card there was no way he could set things right or tell Jack that he wasn't ashamed of him or their love. It was a huge step for him to go to Jack's parents house in the first place- he could have retreated into his shell. He was trying to give to Jack in death what he refused him in life-being proud to love and be loved by Jack.

Amen.  Beautiful, LuvJackNasty.

I second.

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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #15 on: Jul 21, 2006, 08:12 AM »
Quote from: tpe on Jul 21, 2006, 07:37 AM
Quote from: stacp on Jul 20, 2006, 10:54 PM
Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Jul 20, 2006, 08:05 PM
Beautiful thread!  :\'( Ennis could no longer deny to himself that he denied Jack that sweet life.  I think he realized that his fear made Jack feel that he was ashamed of him and what that did to Jack. After getting that post card there was no way he could set things right or tell Jack that he wasn't ashamed of him or their love. It was a huge step for him to go to Jack's parents house in the first place- he could have retreated into his shell. He was trying to give to Jack in death what he refused him in life-being proud to love and be loved by Jack.

Amen.  Beautiful, LuvJackNasty.

I second.


I third, LJN.   :(  He could have retreated to his shell - but didn't.  He does show Jack his love by doing that.  :\'(

I think it's especially telling, too, that he says those words, makes this gesture, BEFORE he finds the shirts - the material proof of Jack's unspoken love for Ennis. 

It somehow gives even more meaning to these steps that Ennis took, that he did this on his own, a last gift to the man he loved.  And the shirts were his reward for daring to put forth his love for Jack in the presence of others, for probably the first time.
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Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #16 on: Jul 21, 2006, 10:54 AM »
Quote from: MississaugaRed on Jul 21, 2006, 08:12 AM
Quote from: tpe on Jul 21, 2006, 07:37 AM
Quote from: stacp on Jul 20, 2006, 10:54 PM
Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Jul 20, 2006, 08:05 PM
Beautiful thread!  :\'( Ennis could no longer deny to himself that he denied Jack that sweet life.  I think he realized that his fear made Jack feel that he was ashamed of him and what that did to Jack. After getting that post card there was no way he could set things right or tell Jack that he wasn't ashamed of him or their love. It was a huge step for him to go to Jack's parents house in the first place- he could have retreated into his shell. He was trying to give to Jack in death what he refused him in life-being proud to love and be loved by Jack.

Amen.  Beautiful, LuvJackNasty.

I second.


I third, LJN.   :(  He could have retreated to his shell - but didn't.  He does show Jack his love by doing that.  :\'(

I think it's especially telling, too, that he says those words, makes this gesture, BEFORE he finds the shirts - the material proof of Jack's unspoken love for Ennis. 

It somehow gives even more meaning to these steps that Ennis took, that he did this on his own, a last gift to the man he loved.  And the shirts were his reward for daring to put forth his love for Jack in the presence of others, for probably the first time.

I agree with ALL of you.  And, MississaugaRed, I never thought of that before...if Ennis had simply retreated into his shell, he never would have found the shirts and realized how much Jack loved him and how much he really loved Jack.    :\'(
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #17 on: Jul 21, 2006, 11:18 AM »
Miss-Red, Jesseanne beautiful posts  :\'(
That's so true- he would have never have found the shirts if he never took that step.
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Offline scribe

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #18 on: Aug 03, 2006, 09:57 AM »
I hadn't picked up on this before but "proud" says so much more than "happy".  It's a clear message to Twist Snr - you may not have respected your boy or been proud of him and I know you mistreated him (in the ss version) but he was everything to me and I will do anything for him now.  A rare slip by the screenwriters I feel.
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #19 on: Aug 03, 2006, 01:08 PM »
Quote from: scribe on Aug 03, 2006, 09:57 AM
I hadn't picked up on this before but "proud" says so much more than "happy".  It's a clear message to Twist Snr - you may not have respected your boy or been proud of him and I know you mistreated him (in the ss version) but he was everything to me and I will do anything for him now.  A rare slip by the screenwriters I feel.

Can't  agrue with that, scribe, considering our thoughts on the word "proud" here.  Maybe the screenwritters "never gave it any thought" ???  ^*()

It would be interesting to find out from them why they did make that seemingly insignificant change ...    :s)   :s)  'since it means so much to us ...
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #20 on: Aug 03, 2006, 02:17 PM »
Ennis says " proud" in the ss too. I wondered whether there was any influence from the Gay Pride idea, which is what made me raise the point.
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #21 on: Aug 03, 2006, 02:42 PM »
Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 03, 2006, 02:17 PM
Ennis says " proud" in the ss too. I wondered whether there was any influence from the Gay Pride idea, which is what made me raise the point.

ahhhhhh ...  geez, I'd never made that connection ...   %&)  That's a whole other kettle of fish, when you look at it that way ... :s)
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Offline NoReins

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #22 on: Aug 03, 2006, 02:45 PM »
Quote from: MississaugaRed on Aug 03, 2006, 01:08 PM
Quote from: scribe on Aug 03, 2006, 09:57 AM
I hadn't picked up on this before but "proud" says so much more than "happy".  It's a clear message to Twist Snr - you may not have respected your boy or been proud of him and I know you mistreated him (in the ss version) but he was everything to me and I will do anything for him now.  A rare slip by the screenwriters I feel.

Can't  agrue with that, scribe, considering our thoughts on the word "proud" here.  Maybe the screenwritters "never gave it any thought" ???  ^*()

It would be interesting to find out from them why they did make that seemingly insignificant change ...    :s)   :s)  'since it means so much to us ...

Yeah, it does seem like a slip up by the screenwriters. Proud does say so much more about how Ennis felt about Jack. I wonder why they changed it :s)
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Offline lamusica

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #23 on: Aug 12, 2006, 12:26 PM »
Ennis mentions being proud to take Jack's ashes up to BBM AFTER the old man talks bad about Jack.  I think it's an intentional use of the word "proud".  Ennis is trying to give Jack the respect and status he feels is due him.  It's a sly way to sass the old man without being rude.
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #24 on: Aug 12, 2006, 03:07 PM »
Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 05:56 AM

Looking again at the last scene and analyzing the text I was struck by Ennis's statement that he's be " proud" to take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback - he could easily have said " pleased" or " happy" or even "willing".


Welshwitch, in the movie Ennis never says he would be "proud" to take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback Mountain. He says he would be "happy" to do it. The word "proud" is only used in the screenplay and the ss.

Quote from: lamusica on Aug 12, 2006, 12:26 PM

Ennis mentions being proud to take Jack's ashes up to BBM AFTER the old man talks bad about Jack.


Actually, lamusica. Ennis says he would be "happy" to take Jack's ashes up to Brokeback Mountain BEFORE Mr. Twist goes into his dialog about Jack, Ennis and "the Texas neighbor."

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Offline lamusica

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #25 on: Aug 13, 2006, 10:05 AM »
I'm sorry, Pattriot, but I was referring to the screenplay.  I didn't distinguish and should have.
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greenfrog

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #26 on: Aug 13, 2006, 05:45 PM »
There is nothing quite like hearing Ennis say he was proud of Jack. There is hope in the future for Ennis and he has taken the first step by going to see Jack's parents and telling them how proud he was of Jack and their "friendship".  :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #27 on: Aug 21, 2006, 06:32 PM »
Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Jul 20, 2006, 08:05 PM
Beautiful thread!  :\'( Ennis could no longer deny to himself that he denied Jack that sweet life.  I think he realized that his fear made Jack feel that he was ashamed of him and what that did to Jack. After getting that post card there was no way he could set things right or tell Jack that he wasn't ashamed of him or their love. It was a huge step for him to go to Jack's parents house in the first place- he could have retreated into his shell. He was trying to give to Jack in death what he refused him in life-being proud to love and be loved by Jack.

Oh this is indeed a wonderful thread.  I had never picked up on this, that in the story Ennis said "proud" but in the movie he said "happy."  This is so beautiful, what every one has said here, what saying "proud" would indicate about Ennis and his feelings, and that just being able to say it, would speak loudly of how he has finally changed as a man and can say so...  Especially to old Mr. Twist.

This just makes me cry...

I wonder why LM and DO decided to change that word??

kathy
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #28 on: Aug 21, 2006, 06:34 PM »
Quote from: MississaugaRed on Jul 21, 2006, 08:12 AM
I third, LJN.   :(  He could have retreated to his shell - but didn't.  He does show Jack his love by doing that.  :\'(

I think it's especially telling, too, that he says those words, makes this gesture, BEFORE he finds the shirts - the material proof of Jack's unspoken love for Ennis. 

It somehow gives even more meaning to these steps that Ennis took, that he did this on his own, a last gift to the man he loved.  And the shirts were his reward for daring to put forth his love for Jack in the presence of others, for probably the first time.

Oh this is perfect, how you said this, MissRed.  I didn't really realize that, either, that he says this BEFORE he finds the shirts.  Even more meaningful, then.

kathy
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They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline Toadily

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Re: Ennis's use of "proud".
« Reply #29 on: Aug 08, 2007, 03:59 PM »
Just reading this thread, wow, it's interesting personally too cause I just used the word proud to describe how
I felt of a friends accomplishments and it felt weird in a way, like I was being parental.B ut I did feel proud
like they honored themselves and us by being courageous and doing the right thing when it wasn't easy.
It felt a more powerful word than just "good for you" or something! 
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"it's Love, Blockhead!"
-Pierre Marivaux  The Triumph of Love

"To love an idea is to love it a little more than one should."  -Jean Rostand
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