Topic: Ennis and Jack's love situation- what do you think? (spoilers)

[jackchristopher27]

I was at lunch with my friends and brought up Brokeback Mountain (as always) and we had a huge debate on whether Ennis should have tried to have a relationship with Jack and have "some sweet life" living together and being with each other, or whether he should have handled their love as he did, seeing each other every few months in a secluded part of the country. I naturally would want Jack and Ennis to be happy, and I think love can conquer anything (sorry for the cliche-mushiness, but I can't help it).

But there is always that factor that people would possibly find out about them and take action, especially in places like Wyoming and Texas, and their lives would be ruined if anything happened to them, as it did to Jack. What do you think? Would it be worth it, for them to try to conquer adversity as long as they were together in the name of love?

Obviously the movie wouldn't be what it is (AMAZING!!) without Ennis and Jack's struggles with their relationship, but I was just wondering.

[stationbbm]

I was at lunch with my friends and brought up Brokeback Mountain (as always) and we had a huge debate on whether Ennis should have tried to have a relationship with Jack and have "some sweet life" living together and being with each other, or whether he should have handled their love as he did, seeing each other every few months in a secluded part of the country. I naturally would want Jack and Ennis to be happy, and I think love can conquer anything (sorry for the cliche-mushiness, but I can't help it).

But there is always that factor that people would possibly find out about them and take action, especially in places like Wyoming and Texas, and their lives would be ruined if anything happened to them, as it did to Jack. What do you think? Would it be worth it, for them to try to conquer adversity as long as they were together in the name of love?

Obviously the movie wouldn't be what it is (AMAZING!!) without Ennis and Jack's struggles with their relationship, but I was just wondering.

This question has been dealt with in multiplicity around the pros and cons of Jack and Ennis having "some sweet life" together.  This was clearly the gut-wrenching dilemma for Ennis as Jack was more than open about his intentions for their relationship.  Ennis was torn between what society would accept in the 1960s versus what his heart really wanted.  It was a risk/reward type of understanding.  To take the huge risk of staking out a ranch in Wyoming and living with Jack for the rest of his life would have potentially put them in danger....a life of always having to look over your shoulder and wonder what might happen to you. Your community, your family, whatever would likely ostracize you.  All to say that the decision to join up with Jack would involve very certain sacrifice.  You will recall that Ennis was haunted as a child when his father took him to view the old wrangler's body.  Ennis struggles throughout life to understand that.  But what does this say about Ennis's love for Jack? Why wasn't he willing to let go of his own fears in life and simply listen to his heart?  Truth be told,  Wyoming's homophobic attitudes may not have been too extreme back in the 60s and so perhaps a quiet life on a private ranch might have actually worked out.  By the end of the film, you get the impression that Ennis, having lost his best friend, has huge regrets around his indecision to love and be loved.  You hit on a great life lesson here.  Thanks for the engaging remark, jackchrisopher27!

stationbbm

[dirtbiker]

Boy, if they were doing this for 20 years, I would say GO FOR IT as the relationship is definitely beyond just the physical.

[bhebbe]

Ya, I agree with DIRTBIKER.

For me, I had to brake the story into two stories.  That is, the good story of -- they were working it out.  They were on the right track -- twenty years behind them. 

Ennis was talking more, making more eye contact, speaking to Jack in a more affectionate manner.  Hec, Ennis was even asking -- how do you handle ...? or are you experiencing (such and such)?   They were even having cathartic discussions as most couples do when they are at the end of their ropes and need something to change.  Their relationship was going in a very positive direction. 

Ennis had a point, it wasn't working for him either.  I'm surprised he could get away as much as he did.  My employer today would never allow that.  Ennis' daughters were soon to be married.  I have a feeling in a few years, Ennis would have moved on.  He was just gearing up for it.

For me this was the happy part of the story, coming from that part of the country and growing up with men very confused, troubled, and over compensating.  To see a man change out of this character into his own really hits me hard in a good way.

I didn't want the sad story -- the unexpected death of a loved one -- to take away from the happy story.

In the sad story, Ennis says, "Jack I swear _____ _______ ________"

For me, Ennis said, "Jack I swear, I didn't mean what I said. I swear we would've worked somethin' out."

Once I had this in my mind, I have found it helps to put down the story (or leave the movie) before the sad part begins.

[jackchristopher27]

In the sad story, Ennis says, "Jack I swear _____ _______ ________"

For me, Ennis said, "Jack I swear, I didn't mean what I said. I swear we would've worked somethin' out."

You're totally right about that. For me, you hit it right on.

Thanks for such an insightful response to my post. 

[bhebbe]

I've seemed to be focused on Ennis so much.  Next, I think Jack's feelings are another piece to the puzzle I'm looking for.  Would he have stayed with Ennis if Ennis made a move in Jack's direction, opened up a little more?  Or do you think he just had it?  I'm looking for clues.  Would do you think?

[bhebbe]

Here it goes for me:

Jack told us plain and clear: "I wish I knew...".  He is telling us he can't leave Ennis, ever, no way.  He stood there and took Ennis' threats and shoves without fighting back.  And he comforted Ennis even though Ennis at first was pretty clear he didn't want comforting.   And finally, I keep going back to the beginning, he even stole Ennis' shirt off the mountain, and we all know what that means.

In between that first summer and the last meeting, well let's just say, Jack is a Saint.  A Saint with a lot of patience, spunk, and tenacity.  I'm not sure why it took me so long to realize this.

For me, in my dream, hate didn't win that early.  Actually, the last post card read:

"Got your card about November.  Make sure you get that cabin and get 9 or 10 days, Ennis.  We need to talk about how we are going to improve things."

The next post card in my dream, says: "You Bet".

I strongly believe, a long standing relationship between two men, is built not only on the connection, but also, if not more, on the spaces between them.  That space --  some places small and in others large, actually strengthens the connecting bonds.

[*Froggy*]

For me, in my dream, hate didn't win that early.  Actually, the last post card read:

"Got your card about November.  Make sure you get that cabin and get 9 or 10 days, Ennis.  We need to talk about how we are going to improve things."

The next post card in my dream, says: "You Bet".

I strongly believe, a long standing relationship between two men, is built not only on the connection, but also, if not more, on the spaces between them.  That space --  some places small and in others large, actually strengthens the connecting bonds.

Love your dream!!! :'(

[jackchristopher27]

Here it goes for me:

Jack told us plain and clear: "I wish I knew...".  He is telling us he can't leave Ennis, ever, no way.  He stood there and took Ennis' threats and shoves without fighting back.  And he comforted Ennis even though Ennis at first was pretty clear he didn't want comforting.   And finally, I keep going back to the beginning, he even stole Ennis' shirt off the mountain, and we all know what that means.

In between that first summer and the last meeting, well let's just say, Jack is a Saint.  A Saint with a lot of patience, spunk, and tenacity.  I'm not sure why it took me so long to realize this.

For me, in my dream, hate didn't win that early.  Actually, the last post card read:

"Got your card about November.  Make sure you get that cabin and get 9 or 10 days, Ennis.  We need to talk about how we are going to improve things."

The next post card in my dream, says: "You Bet".

I strongly believe, a long standing relationship between two men, is built not only on the connection, but also, if not more, on the spaces between them.  That space --  some places small and in others large, actually strengthens the connecting bonds.

Wow. I love this post. I agree with you about Jack, but I wish Ennis would have committed more without making it so difficult for himself. Jack would have definitely gone for it if Ennis did commit a little bit more. *REGRET* It kills me in this movie.

[Nightwolf]

Read the short; Read the screenplay; Finally saw the film; Well written and adapted; Perfectly directed; Excellently acted; But the story ... I'm curious if anyone else feels guilty that we have what these characters could not. On a conscious level, I recognize they had to have these experiences for us to have what we do.  "We stand on the shoulders of our Ancestors." But that isn't making the guilt go away. I'm finding myself angry with the authors for not giving the character of Ennis the balls to take a chance. Wouldn't that scenario be a stronger foundation for the thought "We stand on the shoulders of our Ancestors."? Wouldn't that scenario shouted more volumes about the Human Spirit?  Wouldn't that scenario have better illustrated the similarities between the Hetero and the Homo?

I fail to believe this scenario would have lessened the impact of the internal struggles for each character.  Quite frankly, I think it would be just the opposite.

Your thoughts?

[Toadily]

Read the short; Read the screenplay; Finally saw the film; Well written and adapted; Perfectly directed; Excellently acted; But the story ... I'm curious if anyone else feels guilty that we have what these characters could not. On a conscious level, I recognize they had to have these experiences for us to have what we do.  "We stand on the shoulders of our Ancestors." But that isn't making the guilt go away. I'm finding myself angry with the authors for not giving the character of Ennis the balls to take a chance. Wouldn't that scenario be a stronger foundation for the thought "We stand on the shoulders of our Ancestors."? Wouldn't that scenario shouted more volumes about the Human Spirit?  Wouldn't that scenario have better illustrated the similarities between the Hetero and the Homo?

I fail to believe this scenario would have lessened the impact of the internal struggles for each character.  Quite frankly, I think it would be just the opposite.

Your thoughts?

Annie Proulx almost apologizes for the sad ending but says hey it had to end sad guys.  I mean this was also about an era, which thankfully seems to be going away.

[rikcub]

I think that is one of the main tragedies of this movie and what makes it haunt all of us.  For twenty years Jack and Ennis had half a relationship....and in the end Jack died anyway.  If they had given it a shot what worse could have happened?  Their love was sold short and still the end was horrible.

[jackchristopher27]

I think that is one of the main tragedies of this movie and what makes it haunt all of us.  For twenty years Jack and Ennis had half a relationship....and in the end Jack died anyway.  If they had given it a shot what worse could have happened?  Their love was sold short and still the end was horrible.

For that very reason I think that it would have been worth the risk to try to have a life together and live happy. If death is inevitable, why not spend what moments you could happily with each other, not caring what others think or what they could do? I think Ennis thought something like this, a deep regret for his wasted love and life with Jack. But, regardless, if the time period and society weren't key reasons for the rift in their relationship, things would have been different.  :'(

[coguaro]

fantaBBM!!!
Jack isn't death... he have been imprisoned by the father of Laureen... Ennis found the deceit... he go in Texas, he free Jack and they escape with Laureen money and go in Alberta where they buy a wonderful farm...
I joked...

I think that Ennis and Jack didn't realize what they found in their lives... even considering the dramatic end they have been so so lucky mans.....

coguaro