Author Topic: All them THINGS that I don't know  (Read 75875 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #180 on: Jul 30, 2008, 07:34 AM »
I agree,MG;Ennis life turned around Jack.Even if his life changed in the last years,and his economical and familiar duties avoided him to see his lover as often as he wanted.Even if this situation sometimes seems provoked by Ennis himself,as a way of running away from a socially bad considered relationship.Even the strength of his own denials and fears,even the strength of himself against the thought itself,Ennis was madly in love.

He was in love without even knowing it.


Offline tpe

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #181 on: Jul 30, 2008, 07:35 AM »
Oh my and that look on Jack's face after admitting he'd been in Mexico and saying "is that a f***n problem?" So many emotions in that face, anger hurt regret sadness love, he knew right after he said it that it had broken Ennis's heart. 

It was a mixture of guilt and indignation.  He probably felt that all this was so secondary/subordiante to the main issue that kept them apart over those years.  It was a symptom and not the problem.

Offline rimasworld

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #182 on: Jul 30, 2008, 01:36 PM »
He was in love without even knowing it.



I go back and forth on my opinion on this. Ennis referred to it as "this thing that got hold of him" and I'm wondering how couldn't he have known deep down in his heart what it was?  but then again he was so conflicted.. I don't know.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #183 on: Jul 30, 2008, 01:38 PM »
He was in love without even knowing it.

And without daring to call it so...

It was a mixture of guilt and indignation.  He probably felt that all this was so secondary/subordiante to the main issue that kept them apart over those years.  It was a symptom and not the problem.

Of course,you're right again¡. The real problem was another one,much deeper indeed.Even if Jack could feel guilty for his faithless behaviour,he knew perfectly well that it was the symptom that both of them were being faithless not physically,buy emotionally to each other and their hopes.In this sense,I've always thought that Jack was more faithful,even if he had many occasional lovers,to his first and main idea and wish.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #184 on: Jul 30, 2008, 01:42 PM »
I go back and forth on my opinion on this. Ennis referred to it as "this thing that got hold of him" and I'm wondering how couldn't he have known deep down in his heart what it was?  but then again he was so conflicted.. I don't know.

You're right too.But,letting aside his inner conflicts,I think he knew it in his soul and heart,but he couldn't and...didn't want to? accept it in his mind.And also that,as I said in my former post,he didn't dare to put the name of love to what he was feeling,because it wasn't suitable between two men.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #185 on: Jul 31, 2008, 11:19 AM »
And without daring to call it so...

Of course,you're right again¡. The real problem was another one,much deeper indeed.Even if Jack could feel guilty for his faithless behaviour,he knew perfectly well that it was the symptom that both of them were being faithless not physically,buy emotionally to each other and their hopes.In this sense,I've always thought that Jack was more faithful,even if he had many occasional lovers,to his first and main idea and wish.

True, he didn't dare call it so een when he knew it was so.

And yes, with Ennis, it was an emotional faithlessness that matched Jack's physcial one.  And in the case of Ennis, it was made much more grave/henious by virtue of his not being faithful to his true self.

 

Offline tpe

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #186 on: Jul 31, 2008, 11:21 AM »
I go back and forth on my opinion on this. Ennis referred to it as "this thing that got hold of him" and I'm wondering how couldn't he have known deep down in his heart what it was?  but then again he was so conflicted.. I don't know.

Because people compartmentalize things -- never allowing one part of the self to meet with another.  This is a very recognized part of the human condition.  Deep down, he knew and didn't know.  They resided in opposing and totally separate mansions of the Heart, shall we say.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #187 on: Aug 24, 2008, 01:13 AM »
I agree with these great posts myprivatejack,tpe, and rimasworld,

 I am reminded in Ennis's case of the devil and angel scenario of one on each shoulder whispering into his ears. One telling him that deep down iside, he knows it's love and that he should embrace it, the other reminding him that it's totally forbidden to embrace it.
 It was too much for Ennis to ask of himself. An inner battle  or tug of war for his soul. His feelings for Jack vs society , culture, and childhood teachings.  Either way Ennis looks at it, it's  Love vs  the fear of love, with a price too high to pay for either..   Meanwhile the message  Jack gets is ...his love for Ennis is not enough, especially when expressing it out loud is not an option. but what more could he have done to show his love? His frustration is clear. Nothing short of Jack's death could allow Ennis to see the true worth of Jack's love or self love. Only then could Ennis receive/embrace  true love and give it as well. MO.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #188 on: Aug 25, 2008, 02:56 AM »
I agree with this.  I have one question though, could this be the reply to Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"?   

Hey manhattangirl..i think that Jack also felt that Ennis is only his and no one else..thats why he wanted Ennis to leave Alma and them both to stay together..However, Ennis was scared to do so....
They belonged together ya..thats the ultimate truth...

Offline tpe

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #189 on: Aug 25, 2008, 07:29 AM »
I agree with these great posts myprivatejack,tpe, and rimasworld,

 I am reminded in Ennis's case of the devil and angel scenario of one on each shoulder whispering into his ears. One telling him that deep down iside, he knows it's love and that he should embrace it, the other reminding him that it's totally forbidden to embrace it.
 It was too much for Ennis to ask of himself. An inner battle  or tug of war for his soul. His feelings for Jack vs society , culture, and childhood teachings.  Either way Ennis looks at it, it's  Love vs  the fear of love, with a price too high to pay for either..   Meanwhile the message  Jack gets is ...his love for Ennis is not enough, especially when expressing it out loud is not an option. but what more could he have done to show his love? His frustration is clear. Nothing short of Jack's death could allow Ennis to see the true worth of Jack's love or self love. Only then could Ennis receive/embrace  true love and give it as well. MO.

In a way, all the things that the didn't "know"  included just how much they loved each other.  Ironic.


Offline atalley

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #190 on: Aug 25, 2008, 07:07 PM »
That's a good point that I've never thought about!  :clap:

Offline tpe

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #191 on: Aug 27, 2008, 07:57 AM »
That's a good point that I've never thought about!  :clap:

Thanks atalley.  Alas, it is also so sad.  :(


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #192 on: Aug 27, 2008, 12:08 PM »
In a way, all the things that the didn't "know"  included just how much they loved each other.  Ironic.

One more time,you hit the nail on the head,Thomas¡ (and excuse me if the expression isn't right... ;D ).Maybe this is the real and main thing that they didn't know-specially,what Ennis didn't know or what he didn't want to know...-and what was the root of all their tragedy.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #193 on: Aug 28, 2008, 08:43 AM »
One more time,you hit the nail on the head,Thomas¡ (and excuse me if the expression isn't right... ;D ).Maybe this is the real and main thing that they didn't know-specially,what Ennis didn't know or what he didn't want to know...-and what was the root of all their tragedy.

Thanks MPJ!  The movie is so rich in multiple levels of meaning (and ironies!) that I wouldn't be surprised if this were true. 

Offline youbet

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Why did Ennis doubt Mexico and "all them things", how did he know
« Reply #194 on: Aug 19, 2012, 07:39 AM »
Was wondering how did Ennis know about Jack straying .. about Mexico and "all them things... get you killed". Ennis appears to be a person with not much initiative , i doubt he would ever do a research!. They didn't have common friends or even acquaintance, its not facebook age them he would stalk and find out, they didn't meet regularly, neither did they meet at each other's place that he would come accross evidence. Neither did Ennis ask too many questions, Jack must have been lying then how the hell did he know

Anybody can throw some light this question has been bugging me for some time now ! ??? ... wonder if i have missed any minute detail which could cue
« Last Edit: Aug 19, 2012, 07:46 AM by youbet »
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Offline chowhound

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Re: Why did Ennis doubt Mexico and "all them things", how did he know
« Reply #195 on: Aug 20, 2012, 03:44 PM »
Was wondering how did Ennis know about Jack straying .. about Mexico and "all them things... get you killed". Ennis appears to be a person with not much initiative , i doubt he would ever do a research!. They didn't have common friends or even acquaintance, its not facebook age them he would stalk and find out, they didn't meet regularly, neither did they meet at each other's place that he would come accross evidence. Neither did Ennis ask too many questions, Jack must have been lying then how the hell did he know

Anybody can throw some light this question has been bugging me for some time now ! ??? ... wonder if i have missed any minute detail which could cue

Hi Youbet,
  It's an interesting question but there are few definitive answers.
  I've always assumed that Ennis knew about Mexico's reputation for easy gay sex from jokes or allusions to it that he'd heard from fellow workers. Indeed, this is what the short story suggests:

[Ennis]:"You been a Mexico, Jack?" Mexico was the place. He'd heard."

However, how Mexico got this reputation then and whether it was accurate or not, I've no idea. As far as I know, it's certainly not its reputation today. Any older Brokies remember Mexico having such reputation in the sixties or seventies?

How often Jack has indeed "been a Mexico" is a different but related question. We, the audience, know he has been once after Ennis's rejection of him but was this the only time? I doubt it but from Jack's impassioned reply to the Mexico question, it sounds to me such visits have been  infrequent:

"Count the damn few times we been together in nearly twenty years. Measure the f/ckin' short lease you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and then tell me you'll kill me for needin' something I don't hardly never get".

"...something I don't hardly never get" suggests to me that Jack's Mexico visits have been very few and far between.



Offline thunderwolf

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #196 on: Jun 18, 2014, 03:13 PM »
I loved that scene so much. Probably my second favourite in the entire movie, and short story.

To be honest, I can't rationalise properly what I think it means.

I look on it like this. Ennis life is built on control and a face of making do with what you can't change. So, 'all them things that I don't know' would simply be the things he knows exist, but can't change. So he'll make do and 'stand' them out.

The script and the story tell us that Jack had braced this confrontation for years, and here it came, late, and unexpected. In both the script I've got, and the short story, when Jack talks about the good life they could've had together they say "You wouldn't do it Ennis', where as the film as released features 'You didn't want it Ennis'.

Not wanting the life together, is not want Ennis 'wanted' it's what he 'wouldn't do'. Huge difference, I wonder why they went with this. But, in the film version, when Jack is lamenting the good life they could've had together, Ennis is silent, but he's nodding. So he agrees. They could've had a good life, but didn't, and wouldn't.

They kind of reconcile, although nothings resolved, nothings ended, nothings changed. The power of their embrace almost brings everything to where it was, although things said, can never be unsaid.


Offline bluemountainsky

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #197 on: Aug 23, 2014, 02:16 PM »
I loved that scene so much. Probably my second favourite in the entire movie, and short story.

To be honest, I can't rationalise properly what I think it means.

I look on it like this. Ennis life is built on control and a face of making do with what you can't change. So, 'all them things that I don't know' would simply be the things he knows exist, but can't change. So he'll make do and 'stand' them out.

The script and the story tell us that Jack had braced this confrontation for years, and here it came, late, and unexpected. In both the script I've got, and the short story, when Jack talks about the good life they could've had together they say "You wouldn't do it Ennis', where as the film as released features 'You didn't want it Ennis'.


Not wanting the life together, is not want Ennis 'wanted' it's what he 'wouldn't do'. Huge difference, I wonder why they went with this. But, in the film version, when Jack is lamenting the good life they could've had together, Ennis is silent, but he's nodding. So he agrees. They could've had a good life, but didn't, and wouldn't.

They kind of reconcile, although nothings resolved, nothings ended, nothings changed. The power of their embrace almost brings everything to where it was, although things said, can never be unsaid.



Ennis was so conflicted the entire time. Part of him knew what he felt for Jack was love, and not just any love, but true love, epic love, the other half of his soul. The other part knew it was forbidden and was afraid to face his true feelings. There's the part that recognized what he was, as evidenced by him telling Jack "If my dad were to alive and he were to walk through that door right now, he'd get the tire iron"...clearly Ennis knew that he was "one of those guys", or the time when Ennis asks Jack if he ever gets the sense that people know, and he shared with him the experience of walking around Riverton wondering if people could know his secret just by looking at him.

This is acknowledgement from Ennis that he is love with another man, and therefore "one of those guys", as would be described by his father and other homophobic people. Then at the last meeting he says to Jack "what boys like you do in Mexico"...the other part of himself that is denial about who he really is. But of course at the forefront of Ennis' reaction to Jack seeing other men is his faithfulness and devotion to Jack. That's why Jack lied about Randall, and told Ennis at first that it was Randall's wife he'd been seeing when we all know it wasn't her, it was Randall. Women were no threat to their relationship, because they both knew that the women were just part of the lie, just a cover-up so society would not suspect that they're gay. Hence, Jack doesn't care if Ennis is married to Alma or seeing Cassie, but who knows what he would have said if Ennis had ever been with another man. Unspoken between them was that faithfulness, each one tacitly feeling like he belonged to the other.

That is why if one of them were to see another man, that would be cheating, infidelity, betrayal. Even though it's pretty clear that although Jack was seeing other men, they were just flings because he couldn't stand life without Ennis. Jack was lonely, heartbroken, sad, miserable, and needed to fill his life with something to distract him from his situation with Ennis. If Jack had gotten the life he wanted with Ennis, then he wouldn't have been unfaithful.
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Offline Mahogany

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #198 on: Oct 04, 2014, 10:37 PM »
Ennis is jealous of Jack being with other men, and Jack is jealous of Ennis being with women.
Jack never had to worry about Ennis being with other men, because he knew Ennis wouldn't, and he thinks Ennis could enjoy having sex with women.
But, we see Ennis doesn't enjoy Alma or Cassie, not because he deslike women, he would deslike every partner who was not Jack.

Offline bluemountainsky

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #199 on: Oct 04, 2014, 11:03 PM »
I don't believe Jack was ever jealous of Ennis being with women...he just wanted Ennis to stop living a lie and come live with him. He wished Ennis would just stop pretending to be something he is not. Jack never saw Ennis's marriage to Alma or relationship with Cassie as a threat...rather Jack probably rolled his eyes at it. Jack never worried about Ennis being with any other person, really, because he knew how faithful Ennis was. Neither one cared if the other slept with women, because that was society expected, it didn't have any meaning, there is no competiton. They married and dated women because society told them they have to, but to sleep with other men is to cheat on the other, once again it's another tacit admission by Ennis that they are both gay, only a relationship with another man actually means something. Ennis in the end faces the possibility that Jack might actually leave him, hence he gets angry.

That shows that on a deeper level Ennis recognized that what they had is love, and had doubts again because he was afraid Jack had been using him all that time. And I also do believe the reason he couldn't enjoy being with Alma and Cassie is in fact because he could not form a romantic connection with any woman. Ennis tried to prove to himself that he wasn't gay, he was like many people who suffer from internalized homophobia. They actually believe you can wish being gay away, and that's what Ennis tried to do, but of course you can't do that. It's just the way you're born, like you can't change the color of your eyes, or how tall you are. To deny the fact that Ennis is gay is to do what Ennis did to himself. He was in denial because he did not want to accept something that is just simply a trait, due to the huge stigma and shame that society made it to be. If he had lived in a world where homosexuality was seen as exactly as normal as heterosexuality, and where being a man was not associated with being macho and the way that society thinks men should be, then there is no doubt that Ennis would have accepted himself from day one. But he lived in a world where it was seen as something disgusting, and wrong, the worst sin. He lived in a homophobic, patriarchal world where he was taught that queers are inferior. Hence it's no surprise that he denied his true self. Many gay men still do to this day, even though society has made a little bit of progress regarding homosexuality, there is still a long long way to go.

Like Jimmy in Forever Blue, he saw this "thing" as a curse because that's what society taught him, he didn't want to be what society ridiculed and abhorred so much. He couldn't realize that finding true love was the best thing to ever happen in his life, a true blessing. His true love was indeed a man, and if he hadn't been gay...then well, his true love obviously would not have been a man, and he could never have become attached to a man the way he became attached to Jack. He might have loved in a platonic way like brothers, but not in a deeply romantic way the way he did with Jack. Cassie was exactly like Jack in so many ways. The only difference is the physical...she was a woman. Imagine if Ennis had met Cassie before he met Alma and Jack, would he fall in love with her the way he fell in love with Jack? I definitely don't believe so at all.

There was more to Ennis not being able to be with any woman then the fact that they weren't Jack. Ennis would have never been with any other man for two reasons: his fidelity to Jack, and his denial of his homosexuality. He went through all those years trying to convince himself that both he and Jack weren't gay...that's exactly what closeted gay men in denial do. It's okay if it's just Jack, he told himself. When he found out Jack was having affairs with other men, he had to deal with the truth that Jack is indeed gay, and that so is he...that is part of the reason he got so angry. He was still so homophobic that he did not want to accept the truth about himself, Jack, and their relationship. Even though deep down he KNEW they were exactly like "those guys" Rich and Earl, as he said it himself. The other reason he got angry is because Jack was cheating on him, and for the first time he thought Jack was going to leave him for someone else. He understood then that Jack might end the relationship with him, and was afraid of that. Because for all his talk of "why don't you just leave me be", what Ennis really felt inside was that he was inseparable from Jack. He couldn't live without Jack. He need Jack in his life, because it was the only good thing that ever happened to him, and because deep down he knew he loved him.
« Last Edit: Oct 04, 2014, 11:17 PM by bluemountainsky »
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Offline lzara23

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #200 on: Dec 16, 2014, 01:07 PM »
Hello everyone! I've been reading some of your thoughts on this post and they are really profound and I agree with the most of them. That scene is really beautiful and heartbreaking at the same time, we use to see Jack so sweet and calm always and dissapointed at times, but always being a support for Ennis, but when he gets caught for "Mexico" he uses all that indignation to free himself and say everything bad to Ennis, who shows his feelings and makes my heart melt  :_( it's so sad how Enni's face shows all that anger and jealousy, and at the same time so beautiful...  :_( I think the director should give us some more footage for Christmas  :_(

Offline rimasworld

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #201 on: Dec 21, 2014, 10:22 PM »
Hello everyone! I've been reading some of your thoughts on this post and they are really profound and I agree with the most of them. That scene is really beautiful and heartbreaking at the same time, we use to see Jack so sweet and calm always and dissapointed at times, but always being a support for Ennis, but when he gets caught for "Mexico" he uses all that indignation to free himself and say everything bad to Ennis, who shows his feelings and makes my heart melt  :_( it's so sad how Enni's face shows all that anger and jealousy, and at the same time so beautiful...  :_( I think the director should give us some more footage for Christmas  :_(
I could easily watch another hour or more of new scenes in this movie, I love it that much.

Offline lzara23

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Re: All them THINGS that I don't know
« Reply #202 on: Feb 26, 2015, 03:24 AM »
Hi guys! anyone finds it funny the way Ennis says "go ahead" in that scene? I mean,he's says "Go on" I have nothing to feel guilty about, not like you... it makes me laugh  :s)