Topic: All them THINGS that I don't know

[atalley]

Good point.  I never thought of it that way.  Both of his worst thoughts came to pass.

[smartestsonia]

He meant to say that u can only be mine and no other man can have u as u r meant only with me and no one else

[manhattangirl]

He meant to say that u can only be mine and no other man can have u as u r meant only with me and no one else

I agree with this.  I have one question though, could this be the reply to Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"?   

[tpe]

Good point.  I never thought of it that way.  Both of his worst thoughts came to pass.

To his infinite regret, I suppose.  Noody likes playing Cassandra.

[tpe]

He meant to say that u can only be mine and no other man can have u as u r meant only with me and no one else

I agree with this.  I have one question though, could this be the reply to Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"?   

In a way, his threat was sort of a compliment, no?  It is better to realize that the one you love is jealous than indifferent.  In this way, it can be seen as a sort of "negative" admission of love, don't you agree?  MG, was this what you meant?

   

[atalley]

I definitely see it as a compliment that stems from jealousy.  Slightly  ...I was just thinking-after Ennis collapsed into his arms and said "I can't stand this no more, Jack"; I was surprised that he drove away, as I thought he meant "I can't stand being away from you anymore".  Was there more discussion between them in the SS?  Just curious.

[manhattangirl]

I definitely see it as a compliment that stems from jealousy.  Slightly  ...I was just thinking-after Ennis collapsed into his arms and said "I can't stand this no more, Jack"; I was surprised that he drove away, as I thought he meant "I can't stand being away from you anymore".  Was there more discussion between them in the SS?  Just curious.

In the ss it's somewhat different than in the movie, Jack remains in his truck, Ennis collapses then recovers on his own, and the scene goes on:

"...they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news.  Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.."

I think this may be what you were asking.  From my perspective nothing changed between them, they didn't end it, they didn't make any sort of declarations or promises, it all remained the same. ( I love AP's  use of words).      JMO.

[manhattangirl]

In a way, his threat was sort of a compliment, no?  It is better to realize that the one you love is jealous than indifferent.  In this way, it can be seen as a sort of "negative" admission of love, don't you agree?  MG, was this what you meant?

   

 Yes, You see it,  but I also think this is what sets Jack off on his tirade.   Ennis would kill him if he ever found out he was with someone else, in other words, " you are mine, and mine alone", but he limits the time they are together, or not just saying outright,  "you're gonna be with me always".   Ennis is not doing this, not coming down off the fence he's been sitting on for twenty years,  this what enrages Jack.   Jack's fed up, time is passing, and there is not enough of it, I can understand why he wished he could quit Ennis.   JMO.

[sportstalk23]

Yes, You see it,  but I also think this is what sets Jack off on his tirade.   Ennis would kill him if he ever found out he was with someone else, in other words, " you are mine, and mine alone", but he limits the time they are together, or not just saying outright,  "you're gonna be with me always".   Ennis is not doing this, not coming down off the fence he's been sitting on for twenty years,  this what enrages Jack.   Jack's fed up, time is passing, and there is not enough of it, I can understand why he wished he could quit Ennis.   JMO.

exactly manhattan Jack did have the line about "the short f-in leash you keep me on" said it all about Jack's frustration like, "damn Ennis what more do you expect from me we see each other only a handful of times a year then, you go back to your fake life and I go back to my fake life, but you want me to be faithful to you as a complete relationship yet you refuse to take the final step of making this a complete relationship. I understood Jack's tirade as much as I understood Ennis's continued reservation about taking that step

[rimasworld]

If Ennis would have just answered Jack in silence or some sort of grunt like he did many times, Jack would have taken that as indifference and hey he doesn't care what I do does he?, when he said "Yeah I've been down in Mexico, is that a f***ing problem?" But Ennis throwing his jealous hissy fit allowed Jack's floodgates to open and he spewed out all that had been festering in his gut for many years. This was a long time coming.

[tpe]

Do we consider Ennis's "threat" to be a good or a bad thing in the long run?  I know that it did open the floodgates as far as jack was concerned, but perhaps this would have been inevitable? 

I had started a thread a long time ago about the "possessiveness"  of Ennis, and I cited the threat as the prime example.  I remember some interesting exchanges there -- not everyone agreed that he was especially possessive.  Are we to distinguish between possessiveness and jealousy?

[rimasworld]

Do we consider Ennis's "threat" to be a good or a bad thing in the long run?  I know that it did open the floodgates as far as jack was concerned, but perhaps this would have been inevitable? 

I had started a thread a long time ago about the "possessiveness"  of Ennis, and I cited the threat as the prime example.  I remember some interesting exchanges there -- not everyone agreed that he was especially possessive.  Are we to distinguish between possessiveness and jealousy?

Just going by my own experience, I think those 2 emotions can be 1 in the same. I feel they also stem from insecurity which seems to breed them.

[sportstalk23]

Do we consider Ennis's "threat" to be a good or a bad thing in the long run?  I know that it did open the floodgates as far as jack was concerned, but perhaps this would have been inevitable? 

I had started a thread a long time ago about the "possessiveness"  of Ennis, and I cited the threat as the prime example.  I remember some interesting exchanges there -- not everyone agreed that he was especially possessive.  Are we to distinguish between possessiveness and jealousy?

I think it was jealous and possessive  can be one in the same Ennis didnt mind when it was the "forman's wife" he thought that was funny but when the mexico implication came out he was far from pleased, he kept trying to get Jack to be ok with their situation "if we cant fix it we gotta stand it", and but really Jack would tolerate it but he was never ok with it. The thought of Jack turning to other men wasnt something Ennis could tolerate. Jack was his and his alone and that threat was to me just that a threat, he wouldnt seriously harm Jack besides that "I dont wanna say goodbye punch". He felt them too having a life together would cause them harm and he didnt want that.

But didnt we love the way Jack didnt back down and let Ennis just throw that threat out and leave and we saw the end result of that confrontation didnt we

[jessicat80]

I think it was jealous and possessive  can be one in the same Ennis didnt mind when it was the "forman's wife" he thought that was funny but when the mexico implication came out he was far from pleased,

I just saw this scene again on Bravo, and after Ennis does kinda laugh at the idea of Jack and the forman's wife, he then pauses, gets serious, and glances at Jack...like he doesn't like the idea.

I wondered at this.. if that reaction had to do with Ennis being jealous of Jack with someone else, or possibly upset that Jack might be so attracted to women also, that he would actually risk sleeping with a married woman.... while Ennis is trying so hard to deny his attration to men.

After this thought...this guilt... festering in his mind all night, would it then make Ennis that much more ticked off at the Mexio confession? Like, wait, I thought you just threw in my face that you still like women a lot; now it turns outs your attracted to other men as much as me, except you;re actually doing something about it.

[atalley]

I don't think that's why he gave Jack the serious look that night.  I think that's the best he could do when Jack says "sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it".  He felt the same way in his head and heart, but couldn't bring himself to say it out loud.  Later that night, we find them spooning in the tent.  Intimacy was proof of his love.  (I love that scene...just wish there was more).

Anyway, (during the argument), after Jack mentioned Mexico, Ennis then realized Jack had been seeing other men.  This is what set him off...the thought of Jack being with another man-this made him FURIOUS! Jack was his and no one else's.  He knew the women were just for a "cover".

Anyone else have any ideas?


 

[manhattangirl]

I just saw this scene again on Bravo, and after Ennis does kinda laugh at the idea of Jack and the forman's wife, he then pauses, gets serious, and glances at Jack...like he doesn't like the idea.

I wondered at this.. if that reaction had to do with Ennis being jealous of Jack with someone else, or possibly upset that Jack might be so attracted to women also, that he would actually risk sleeping with a married woman.... while Ennis is trying so hard to deny his attration to men.

After this thought...this guilt... festering in his mind all night, would it then make Ennis that much more ticked off at the Mexio confession? Like, wait, I thought you just threw in my face that you still like women a lot; now it turns outs your attracted to other men as much as me, except you;re actually doing something about it.

Wow, yeah, there can a lot to conclude about what Ennis thought of Jack's confession. 

Remember they didn't look at their relationship as being unfaithful to their wives in itself,  to be married was what you're suppose to be, taking care of your family was what you had to do.  Their relationship was separate and apart from that. 

But for Jack to step outside the bounds of that relationship had to have work on Ennis mind that night, and this in the wake of the Cassie confession, in some way he wanted to let Jack know he was faithful to him.

But Jack displayed a freedom Ennis never experienced.  A freedom of spirit, and of his body that Ennis in some way had shut down, if not,  hinder a bit.  That's why the change in the planned meeting in August.  I never quite believed he couldn't make the meeting, but stall it a bit yes.   Ennis knew how to tighten that leash when necessary, and Jack knew it.  Was it out of fear of losing him?     


 

 

[jessicat80]

Wow, yeah, there can a lot to conclude about what Ennis thought of Jack's confession. 

Remember they didn't look at their relationship as being unfaithful to their wives in itself,  to be married was what you're suppose to be, taking care of your family was what you had to do.  Their relationship was separate and apart from that. 

But for Jack to step outside the bounds of that relationship had to have work on Ennis mind that night, and this in the wake of the Cassie confession, in some way he wanted to let Jack know he was faithful to him.But Jack displayed a freedom Ennis never experienced.  A freedom of spirit, and of his body that Ennis in some way had shut down, if not,  hinder a bit.  That's why the change in the planned meeting in August.  I never quite believed he couldn't make the meeting, but stall it a bit yes.  Ennis knew how to tighten that leash when necessary, and Jack knew it.  Was it out of fear of losing him?     

 

That's really interesting, the idea that they didn't feel like their relationship was cheating on their wives. even more so, the idea that Ennis is only truly jealous when Jack admits to other men....

When Ennis threatens Jack, is he upset that Jack is cheating on him with other men because he only considers sex with men meaningful to Jack and meaningful to himself because they are gay, and Ennis admits to himself that they are gay?

Or is he upset/mad that the idea of Jack having sex with multiple men makes Jack gay, while Ennis refuses to view himself as such, and had up to that point, refused to view Jack as either? (like in the short story when it says Ennis refused to admit he was holding another man during the dozy embrace)

And P.S. MG, It never crossed my mind that Ennis lied about not being able to meet in Aug, that's interesting; is there a thread devoted to that?

[rimasworld]

Wow, yeah, there can a lot to conclude about what Ennis thought of Jack's confession. 

Remember they didn't look at their relationship as being unfaithful to their wives in itself,  to be married was what you're suppose to be, taking care of your family was what you had to do.  Their relationship was separate and apart from that. 

But for Jack to step outside the bounds of that relationship had to have work on Ennis mind that night, and this in the wake of the Cassie confession, in some way he wanted to let Jack know he was faithful to him.

But Jack displayed a freedom Ennis never experienced.  A freedom of spirit, and of his body that Ennis in some way had shut down, if not,  hinder a bit.  That's why the change in the planned meeting in August.  I never quite believed he couldn't make the meeting, but stall it a bit yes.   Ennis knew how to tighten that leash when necessary, and Jack knew it.  Was it out of fear of losing him?     
 

Maybe it was Jack's more independent older freedom of spirit coming thru that night talking about another besides Lureen that started Ennis thinking and probably getting more insecure and jealous. I think it was ok with him that Jack had relations with his wife but it upset him to know Jack was seeking it elsewhere with any other men or women. Maybe Ennis thought he was getting lower on Jack's priorities,  and yeah felt he needed to tighten that leash to get more control of the situation.

 

[aintfoolin]

This is a very interesting conversation . '
I'll add my two cents by saying that Ennis was'nt even thinking of Mexico, until Jack himself mentioned Mexico, like atalley says.  (" We otta go to Mexico" )I think it gave Ennis a clue. He puts two and two together and concludes that Jack has been there.  If it was sex with  a woman Jack needed, there was Lureen, and possibly a foremans wife.. Why would Jack go to Mexico? alone. In Ennis mind, it's where "boys like you" go to play. Possibly on more than one occassion? Men, and sex with other men. When Jack speaks of "needin somethin he hardly ever gets", it's sex with another man.
 I don't even feel that what Ennis felt he had on Jack was considered a *leash* to him. Those were Jack's words, how he felt. Ennis simply expected Jack to be faithful to him, because  to Ennis, they had an unspoken * arrangment that they would be the only men either would be sexually active with and Jack was breaking the *unspoken*  rule. Sure he was jeaulous, he loved Jack, Jack was his partner/lover in a supposedly monogamus relationship. Unfortunately, Jack had a much higher  sex drive than Ennis. Once or twice a year is just not enough. MO

 

[tpe]

Interesting conversation, indeed.

I do think that possessiveness and jealousy can be one and the same thing, and the root is in a sense of personal insecurity.

I have never really considered the possibility that Ennis was jealous when Jack consorts with other women.  I always thought that he would rather see him consort with women, if only to make sure that he isn't involved with other men.  So this possibility intrigues me, although I am not particularly sympathetic to the idea.


And yes, I do't feel that Ennis really inderstood the constraints he put on Jack -- he simply thought that what was good enough for him was good enough for Jack, I suppose.  His jealousy can therefore be understood in part as a reaction to seeing Jack doing things he himself never considered doing.  It was as if there was a whole world in Jack that Ennis had barely touched or understood.

[rimasworld]

Not sure if this is the right place for this thought, but it does have to do with quitting Ennis. I was thinking of something I hadn't before now. A time connection between Jack and Alma's relationship with Ennis. After both had witnessed a crucial event, they both stuck it out with him for their own reasons for about the same amount of time after it happened. Alma being crushed by seeing her husband practically climbing another guy in the reunion scene and Jack being rejected and sent away in the post-divorce scene. Those 2 events right there would have been reason enough for both of them to quit Ennis a lot sooner than they did, but it took all those years for Alma to quit him and the same amount of time for Jack to wish he could and seriously be thinking about it. Just another little tidbit in the movie I think is interesting. 

[atalley]

That's a good point...Alma did stick with the marriage for many yrs.  She probably knew that she could not support her and the girls alone.  As for Jack, he wasn't about to give up the "love of his life"-he had no idea how to "quit Ennis"; I don't think he would've seriously thought about it.  MO

As to Ennis tugging on the leash...I never thought that he was lying about not being able to meet Jack in Aug.  I believe that he really had a problem getting of from work.

I do still, however, get upset with him after Jack drives 14 hrs. to see him only to be sent away.   He could've sent the girls to Alma's for awhile.  28 hrs. of driving...THAT is LOVE!

[sportstalk23]

The I miss you so much I can hardly stand tells me that during the times Jack couldnt stand it he reacted just like yall mentioned the long drive how his heart must have broke for him to drive all that way to Mexico :\'( , just like when people are upset they do the opposite of constructive but destructive, when I had heartbreak I fall into bed and tend not to leave it, or I devour any and everything edible around and who hasnt had the date with that bottle of tequila. Jack had faith because he was a dreamer but that faith got tested quite a bit by Ennis, there in lies the "I wish I knew how to quit you", if you can believe I saw this same thing on Sex and the City with Carrie and Big  . Carrie said the pain of leaving can be tougher than staying, because at least while your in the relationship you still have that person in some way, but once you cut the cord and their gone what do you have left? I think actually quitting Ennis would have been awful for Jack as much as not having 100% of Ennis, but dammit Ennis should have been more clear in that post card or letter about his intentions  he could have told Jack hey I got the girls this weekend but next week end is us but thats how I would have wrote it 

[tpe]

I think part of Jack's response in the Last Confrontation was to tell Ennis that there were things he didn't know also included sacrifies he (Jack) had to bear over the years.  I think he was trying to tell Ennis that it was more than just his trips to Mexico and his casual or more serious encounters with other men.  All the things Ennis didn't know included all those things he refused to acknowledge in their relationship.

 

[atalley]

Very good Thomas.  All of the sacrifices he had made during the 20 yrs.  All of the pent-up anger comes tumbling out when he finds out that he will only have a wk. in Nov. for the entire yr. with Ennis.  Unacceptable.  I don't think, however, that he stopped to think of the sacrifices that Ennis made all those yrs. until Ennis broke down.  I was so glad when he grabbed Ennis for dear life to comfort him. :\'(

[rimasworld]

Yes Ennis really was a tortured soul wasn't he? Sometimes my heart just breaks for him
and his lost opportunity with the person he loved more than life itself   :\'(

[manhattangirl]

Very good Thomas.  All of the sacrifices he had made during the 20 yrs.  All of the pent-up anger comes tumbling out when he finds out that he will only have a wk. in Nov. for the entire yr. with Ennis.  Unacceptable.  I don't think, however, that he stopped to think of the sacrifices that Ennis made all those yrs. until Ennis broke down.  I was so glad when he grabbed Ennis for dear life to comfort him. :\'(

Ennis life was exactly that, he lived for Jack.   Every decision he made, every job he took, ever real feeling he had, was for Jack.  Ennis didn't understand it, and probably deny it, but he was in love. 

[tpe]

Thanks friends.

I think what makes these 2 characters great collide in the last confrontation.

For Ennis, he is a great character because of his being a tortured sould constantly struggling under a seemingly calm surface of stoicism.

For Jack, he is a great character because he rides the emotional turmoil to the end -- fighting it within himself and within Ennis, and never backing down up to the very end.  The significance of the nam,e "Jack Twist" is indeed so very apt. 

[myprivatejack]

Ennis life was exactly that, he lived for Jack.   Every decision he made, every job he took, ever real feeling he had, was for Jack.  Ennis didn't understand it, and probably deny it, but he was in love. 

I agree,MG;Ennis life turned around Jack.Even if his life changed in the last years,and his economical and familiar duties avoided him to see his lover as often as he wanted.Even if this situation sometimes seems provoked by Ennis himself,as a way of running away from a socially bad considered relationship.Even the strength of his own denials and fears,even the strength of himself against the thought itself,Ennis was madly in love.

[rimasworld]

Oh my and that look on Jack's face after admitting he'd been in Mexico and saying "is that a f***n problem?" So many emotions in that face, anger hurt regret sadness love, he knew right after he said it that it had broken Ennis's heart.