Author Topic: Did Lureen know?  (Read 23432 times)

Offline pierralex

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Did Lureen know?
« on: Mar 07, 2006, 05:44 PM »
When seeing BBM for the third and fourth time, I noticed these words from Lureen at the end when speaks to Ennis :
"Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean."

What other wish may she think about? Would she know that Jack wanted to bring Randall to his parents' ranch, as said Jack's father? So this time, Jack's idea would really have beacome reality... And Lureen eventually understand clearly what was going with Jack. So she knew that he was about to let her. (and this reminds me the question if Lureen is somehow involved in Jake's death, but I personnaly don't think so).

Another point is that she's very cold, but when she learns that brokeback mountain really exists and that it was the place Jack met Ennis, her eyes become wet. Obsiously, she knew there wasn't love anymore between her and Jack, but then she realizes that Jack's heart never belonged to her, even at the beginning.....

It's so sad to see her so bitter, when you know how fuul of life and cheerful she was when she met Jack.

Just a last thing I noticed in the english version : the two little noises/sights she does when both of her and Ennis don't speak. I really think she still loved him in a way...
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Offline tpe

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #1 on: Mar 07, 2006, 06:56 PM »
Lureen started making those little sounds after Ennis responded "Ma'am, we hearded sheep on Brokeback in summer of 63" to her comment that BBM (the place were Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered) was probably some pretend place "where bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring".

My interpretation is that at that point, Lureen realized that Ennis and Jack were lifelong lovers, and that was when she started making these sounds that expressed discomfort and pent up hurt.  (Have you seen someone trying not to cry make similar sounds?)  She connected the dots then, and she could only respond "Well, it was his favorite place....

This view is reinforced by the circumstances surrounding the SECOND time she makes such noises: when Ennis said "We was good friends".  After Ennis said this, she made the same uncomforatable sound, indicating that she understood how such good FRIENDS Ennis and Jack were.

Finally, note that Lureen slammed the phone down on Ennis in the end.  She has heard enough from Ennnis and gladly passed him on to Jack's parents.  From the looks of Ennis after the phone conversation with Lureen, it seems that he did not realize that Lureen had finally put the puzzle of Ennis and Jack together.
« Last Edit: Mar 07, 2006, 06:59 PM by tpe »

Sunflower79

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #2 on: Mar 07, 2006, 07:11 PM »
i would defently agree..I feel she know..with her tune of voice and how treated Ennis on the phone..she defently was aware that something was going on..even if she didnt' come out and say it out loud I believe she did know..

Offline bnjmn3

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #3 on: Mar 07, 2006, 08:30 PM »
She knew..that entire Tire Changing story was just made up....
We can't change it. We will have to stand it.

matsuki33

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #4 on: Mar 07, 2006, 10:47 PM »
i think that she realized it when Ennis called her because Brokeback was his place and was because of ennis and she realized she lived a lie that he was in love with ennis and understood a lot all of those fishing and hunting trips

Offline chameau

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #5 on: Mar 07, 2006, 10:56 PM »
Oh yes she knew, she realized it talking to Ennis.

Quote from AP short story:

No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow.

I just love Annie Proulx's style.... so much said in so few words.
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matsuki33

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #6 on: Mar 08, 2006, 01:04 AM »
Exaclty Annie put those words really clear but in the movie it was so damn sad and real

Offline chameau

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #7 on: Mar 08, 2006, 01:20 AM »
Exaclty Annie put those words really clear but in the movie it was so damn sad and real

Thanks to Larry McMurtry's and  Diana Ossana's screenpaly... Ang Lee sensible's directing and Anne's playing.  That scene sticks to the short story but, Ang added something special to it.  Anne got the point.

Haw!   :'( :'( :'( :'( Me again!  Brake please!
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Offline n061857

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #8 on: Mar 14, 2006, 04:17 PM »
I don't believe she knew until Ennis told her that they herded sheep on Brokeback back in '63.  Notice the tears.  I thought it was kind of big of her at this point to tell Ennis that BB was Jack's favorite place, because she finally knows why.  Notice however that her generosity does not extend enough to ask Ennis to come to get the ashes from her.  She doesn't want to see him.  Most people having lost a loved one want to talk to others, who were close to them.  I think before this she is cold to Ennis, because she never really appreciated Jack having to always travel so far to see Ennis.                    - Nancy

Offline Italian_Dude

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #9 on: Mar 15, 2006, 12:03 AM »
I don't believe she knew until Ennis told her that they herded sheep on Brokeback back in '63.  Notice the tears.  I thought it was kind of big of her at this point to tell Ennis that BB was Jack's favorite place, because she finally knows why.  Notice however that her generosity does not extend enough to ask Ennis to come to get the ashes from her.  She doesn't want to see him.  Most people having lost a loved one want to talk to others, who were close to them.  I think before this she is cold to Ennis, because she never really appreciated Jack having to always travel so far to see Ennis.                    - Nancy

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matsuki33

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #10 on: Mar 15, 2006, 12:05 AM »
Me too Nancy i agree with you

Offline chameau

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #11 on: Mar 15, 2006, 01:20 AM »
I don't believe she knew until Ennis told her that they herded sheep on Brokeback back in '63.  Notice the tears.  I thought it was kind of big of her at this point to tell Ennis that BB was Jack's favorite place, because she finally knows why.  Notice however that her generosity does not extend enough to ask Ennis to come to get the ashes from her.  She doesn't want to see him.  Most people having lost a loved one want to talk to others, who were close to them.  I think before this she is cold to Ennis, because she never really appreciated Jack having to always travel so far to see Ennis.                    - Nancy

Yes, I agree with you 100%!

At the end of the phone call she finally got it, she knew.  Her tears and the way she just hung up at the end of Ennis phone call, in the movie I mean. 

From the  short story:  "No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow"

I guess she just got it but she finally knew.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline n061857

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #12 on: Mar 15, 2006, 07:39 AM »
Actually I watched the Charlie Rose interview of Ange Lee yesterday on this website.  According to Ange Lee, she knew and was lying to Ennis.  I like my interpretation better.  Ha!                  - Nancy

matsuki33

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #13 on: Mar 15, 2006, 08:08 AM »
Where i can find that interview? ??? ??? ???

Offline n061857

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #14 on: Mar 15, 2006, 09:06 AM »
Where i can find that interview? ??? ??? ???

Under The Movie and Story, go to News Coverage, Reviews and Awards, then under subject Must See - Charlie Rose interview with Ange and Heath.

I'm sure there was a way for me to put the link here, but I don't know how to do it.  Good interview.    You can also see the Oprah show - another subject listed.           - Nancy

Offline dalemidex

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #15 on: Mar 15, 2006, 09:33 AM »
Actually I watched the Charlie Rose interview of Ange Lee yesterday on this website.  According to Ange Lee, she knew and was lying to Ennis.  I like my interpretation better.  Ha!                  - Nancy

Hmmm....might Ang have not answered exactly that "Lureen knew before the phone call of the full nature Ennis & Jack's relationship" question?  It really seems Lureen understands more mid-phone-call.

My personal take on all of this is:

--Rumors of Jack's activities had gotten around in some circles around Childress.

--Jack was indeed beaten to death in a bashing.

--Lureen knew the circumstances of this and that her husband messed around with one or more men, either before the beating or in the rumors and loose talk after the beating.

--The story of the exploding tire was fully fabricated to hide the embarrassment of the true nature of Jack and why he was killed.

When we get to the phone call itself, the details here are what make this all come together for me:

(a) When Lureen recognizes that Ennis is the Fishin' Buddy, or Huntin' Buddy, there is *no* hint of disdain whatsoever.  So I don't think she knew what Ennis meant to Jack.  Even "Jack kept his friends' addresses in his head" would have had a different tone if it really was "Jack kept his cheating homosexual lovers' addresses in his head"

(b) The telling of the story of Jack's death is very much wrote and unemotional...cold, precise, told a million times.  Yes, when any of us have a story of a loved one's death, we probably tell it a million times as part of the grieving process.  But in that case we often kind of relive it a bit as we tell it.  Lureen seems more annoyed than grieving in telling the story.  Also the precision of the detail and how it is spoken...the RIMMMM of the TAAAAR...don't quite sit right with me.  Liars often put too much specific detail in their lies to try and make them seem more real and plausible.   Why not just say that the tire exploded and hit Jack in the head and knocked him out?  Why the whole broke his jaw, etc?

(c)  The way she speaks of Brokeback Mountain, and how it might even be a pretend place, drips of contempt for how Jack was too much of a dreamer and always had schemes that didn't pan out, but it doesn't sound like "he wanted is ashes scattered where he cheated on me with other men".  She didn't know at that moment or it would have all come out differently.  Frankly I wonder if she'd even have told Ennis.  But when Ennis tells Lureen what Brokeback was, it seems very clear to me that THAT is when she puts two and two together.  The pause she gives, and the muffled sigh, and her eyes, all tell us this.  And then when she struggles to say "well, he said it was his favorite place...I THOUGHT it meant to get drunk"...how much more do we need to see that she didn't understand about Jack until THAT MOMENT?  Yet I believe that if she did not know about Jack's affairs with men before this point, there wasn't enough to piece together than Ennis was his long-time lover.  No, she had to know what Jack was doing before the call to put it together on the phone the way she did.  And with the low credibility of the how-Jack-died story (most importantly in how Lureen tells it, not really the story itself), that makes me believe that Jack was indeed bashed.


Offline n061857

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #16 on: Mar 15, 2006, 04:44 PM »
I apologize if I was not clear in what Ange Lee said in the interview.  He said that Lureen was lying.  I would have to go back and listen again to say with certainty that Ange said she was lying about how Jack died or if I inferred that that was what she was lying about.

He DID NOT say that she knew about the extent of Jack and Ennis' relationship, and in that I think you are right (as was I before listening to the interview), that she put that all together when Ennis tells her of their time on Brokeback back in 1963.

Sorry for any confusion.                          - Nancy

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #17 on: Mar 15, 2006, 05:42 PM »
[My personal take on all of this is:

--Rumors of Jack's activities had gotten around in some circles around Childress.

--Jack was indeed beaten to death in a bashing.

--Lureen knew the circumstances of this and that her husband messed around with one or more men, either before the beating or in the rumors and loose talk after the beating.

--The story of the exploding tire was fully fabricated to hide the embarrassment of the true nature of Jack and why he was killed.

When we get to the phone call itself, the details here are what make this all come together for me:

(a) When Lureen recognizes that Ennis is the Fishin' Buddy, or Huntin' Buddy, there is *no* hint of disdain whatsoever.  So I don't think she knew what Ennis meant to Jack.  Even "Jack kept his friends' addresses in his head" would have had a different tone if it really was "Jack kept his cheating homosexual lovers' addresses in his head"

(b) The telling of the story of Jack's death is very much wrote and unemotional...cold, precise, told a million times.  Yes, when any of us have a story of a loved one's death, we probably tell it a million times as part of the grieving process.  But in that case we often kind of relive it a bit as we tell it.  Lureen seems more annoyed than grieving in telling the story.  Also the precision of the detail and how it is spoken...the RIMMMM of the TAAAAR...don't quite sit right with me.  Liars often put too much specific detail in their lies to try and make them seem more real and plausible.   Why not just say that the tire exploded and hit Jack in the head and knocked him out?  Why the whole broke his jaw, etc?

(c)  The way she speaks of Brokeback Mountain, and how it might even be a pretend place, drips of contempt for how Jack was too much of a dreamer and always had schemes that didn't pan out, but it doesn't sound like "he wanted is ashes scattered where he cheated on me with other men".  She didn't know at that moment or it would have all come out differently.  Frankly I wonder if she'd even have told Ennis.  But when Ennis tells Lureen what Brokeback was, it seems very clear to me that THAT is when she puts two and two together.  The pause she gives, and the muffled sigh, and her eyes, all tell us this.  And then when she struggles to say "well, he said it was his favorite place...I THOUGHT it meant to get drunk"...how much more do we need to see that she didn't understand about Jack until THAT MOMENT?  Yet I believe that if she did not know about Jack's affairs with men before this point, there wasn't enough to piece together than Ennis was his long-time lover.  No, she had to know what Jack was doing before the call to put it together on the phone the way she did.  And with the low credibility of the how-Jack-died story (most importantly in how Lureen tells it, not really the story itself), that makes me believe that Jack was indeed bashed.



I like how you've thought all the elements through here. After reading all of the posts here I think that in the beginning of the call she saw Ennis as just another one of Jack's "friends". But as the call progresses and Ennis reveals the past on Brokeback Mountain she finally puts it all together.The meaning of all those fishing trips to Wyoming finally hits her square in the face.  To me those little mew sounds she makes is her attempt to be superficially polite while coming to terms with this new found knowledge of her husband's unfaithfulness. What a kick in the gut it must have been for her to realize the she NEVER was Jack's first love and worse than that, the love was another man.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline bnjmn3

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #18 on: Mar 17, 2006, 10:29 PM »
Lureen: "...if his wishes was carried out...'bout the ashes I mean."
???
We can't change it. We will have to stand it.

Offline lacy8753

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #19 on: Apr 11, 2006, 02:12 PM »
People see the bodies of  deceased loved ones. Lureen saw Jacks beaten body. Jack wasnt just banged up about the face. If he was hit with a tire iron or beaten to death, Lureen would have seen this. The tire exploding story is a CLOSE story to a tire IRON story. She knew how and why he was killed. (but we dont) When Ennis tells her he and Jack were on Brokeback, and she knows they made all those trips together, she gets that (at least) Ennis was Jack's major love.  Lacy

Offline forbiddenlovers

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #20 on: Apr 11, 2006, 02:51 PM »
As I listened to Lureen talk about Jack's death to Ennis, her story seemed so rehearsed. As if she had told it a million times. Or that it was so contrived in her head that it rolled out as if she were reading it. The part that got me was the end when she said "about the ashes I mean" I knew then and there, she KNEW. I only speculate on how she knew. Jack being caught with another man maybe? Jack telling Lureen, although I don't believe that at all, or like was mentioned before, Jack's trysts being found out about through the circles of town.  I truly believe Jack was murdered and Lureen knew full well that he was. But, what gets me, even though her story was rehearsed, it wasn't necessarily rehearsed for Ennis, it was rehearsed for anyone that didn't know the real story. I think when Ennis said that "we was herdin sheep on Brokeback" that is when she put it together. Why would BBM be so significant to him just because he herded sheep there? It was siginificant when she realized Ennis and Jack were together there. Just my observation though :D

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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #21 on: Apr 11, 2006, 08:26 PM »
I believe she knew. That line stuck out at me also "About the ashes I mean". My first interpretation upon seeing the film was that poor Jack was beaten to death. Lureen sounded too rehearsed. I'm with the others that Ennis telling her about BBM confirmed for her who Ennis really was. When I watched it on Friday with one friend who had only gone to the theater once with me, she asked me if Randall was setting him up. She felt it was a set up of sorts because he mentioned the whiskey and fishing. I said no because that was in '78 and Jack didn't die until a few years later and I figured that was just the thing to do- drink and fish. I always questioned Randall saying his boss is a good ole boy. To me, and my friends that expression is derrogatory meaning intolerant. That always stood out at me.

Another thing we questioned was Lureen asking Jack why husbands don't ever want to dance with their wives. We're having a hard time deciding if she was just being facetious or if she had some clue about Jack at that point.
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Offline Valandil Eluch

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #22 on: Apr 17, 2006, 12:48 AM »
she didn't knew it she realize it at the end of the movie when jack was dead and that killed her knowing Ennis was in Jack's heart not her as she always believed.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline lacy8753

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #23 on: Apr 20, 2006, 12:22 PM »
I think that Lureen and Jack had a pretty functional relationship. Jack tells Ennis that eveything is normal. He's supportive of her at Thanksgiving and she's proud he stood up to her father. They pretty much act like an old married couple UNTIL the dance and lureen makes the comment about husbands not dancing with their wives and Jack asks Lashawn to dance which was pretty ugly. I dont think Lureen knew anything until he was killed and then she knew he was murdered and she must have known why. What made her cry on the phone with Ennis was that she realized she was talking to the man who had been Jack's love for 20 years. She put Brokeback and Jack's friend together and felt like she had never had Jack's love. She was bitter and hurt.

Offline chameau

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #24 on: Apr 20, 2006, 06:59 PM »
I think that Lureen and Jack had a pretty functional relationship. Jack tells Ennis that eveything is normal. He's supportive of her at Thanksgiving and she's proud he stood up to her father. They pretty much act like an old married couple UNTIL the dance and lureen makes the comment about husbands not dancing with their wives and Jack asks Lashawn to dance which was pretty ugly. I dont think Lureen knew anything until he was killed and then she knew he was murdered and she must have known why. What made her cry on the phone with Ennis was that she realized she was talking to the man who had been Jack's love for 20 years. She put Brokeback and Jack's friend together and felt like she had never had Jack's love. She was bitter and hurt.

Yup!  That makes a lot of sense, I stand by you lacy8753.
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Offline Valandil Eluch

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #25 on: Apr 20, 2006, 07:08 PM »
I think that Lureen and Jack had a pretty functional relationship. Jack tells Ennis that eveything is normal. He's supportive of her at Thanksgiving and she's proud he stood up to her father. They pretty much act like an old married couple UNTIL the dance and lureen makes the comment about husbands not dancing with their wives and Jack asks Lashawn to dance which was pretty ugly. I dont think Lureen knew anything until he was killed and then she knew he was murdered and she must have known why. What made her cry on the phone with Ennis was that she realized she was talking to the man who had been Jack's love for 20 years. She put Brokeback and Jack's friend together and felt like she had never had Jack's love. She was bitter and hurt.

Yup!  That makes a lot of sense, I stand by you lacy8753.

i second that
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline WyMe

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #26 on: Aug 15, 2006, 04:45 PM »
Hi,  I noticed those two little stifled "mmm" noises only when I once listened to the film through earphones.  For me it made it clear (especially after the first one - when Ennis explains the Brokeback connection) that Lureen had put two and two together.  Up until then I thought there was a bit of ambiguity - ie did she know or not?

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #27 on: Aug 16, 2006, 07:30 AM »
Hi,  I noticed those two little stifled "mmm" noises only when I once listened to the film through earphones.  For me it made it clear (especially after the first one - when Ennis explains the Brokeback connection) that Lureen had put two and two together.  Up until then I thought there was a bit of ambiguity - ie did she know or not?

WyMe, you just resurrected this old thread about this rich topic.

As the months pass, I have grown to appreciate the scene between Lureen and Ennis as one of the richest and most subtle scenes in the entire movie.  It is s pivotal point for both the characters.  It is heart-rending yet strangely beautiful.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #28 on: Aug 16, 2006, 08:04 AM »
It's the only scene, IMO, where Lureen comes over as anything other than a stereotype and retrospectively one can see that she too may be pitied. After all, she's spent many years having only a part of Jack, and not the most important part at that, which she must have sensed before even if it's only what Ennis says on the phone that confirms it.

Offline WyMe

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Re: Did Lureen know?
« Reply #29 on: Aug 16, 2006, 11:59 AM »
I liked Lureen too, especially after the little smile she gave when Jack put his father-in-law in his place at Thanksgiving dinner, but I always felt she was quite wordly-wise and independent.  Her relationship with Jack had become almost platonic by the sound of it, business partners almost and while she may have been very sorry he was killed,  I wonder if she was more concerned about the circumstances of his murder (if indeed that's what it was) and people finding out about his true sexuality?