Topic: Alma Jr and daddy Ennis

[dirtbiker]

Dunno if this was brought up before, but the more I watch the movie, the more I wonder whether Alma Jr knew about her dad and Jack.  Her reference to Cassie in the bar about her dad "not the marrying kind," and the last scene where she announces her wedding is maybe a way of saying to her dad that he is important in her life despite everything that has happened to him, and she understood him implicitly.  Maybe she understood from the time where she met Jack when Ennis introduced him to her and Jenny.  She probably saw that their hug was a little more than just a friendly buddy hug.

[Apollonos]

That wouldn't surprise me a bit. Alma Jr. definitely took after her dad, and it was pretty clear that she loved him dearly. I think she had him figured out, and knew what the score was between Jack and her dad.

[jimnick]

I think Alma Jr. probably knew her father better than he realized.  Frannie was still a little young, perhaps...  Teenage girls are keen to pick up on emotions and Alma Jr. figured it out.  Hearing Jack's name most all her life and only being introduced to him in a fleeting moment by a red-faced Dad.  She put two and two together and came up with, well...

Jim

[Sitaram]

It is somewhat unusual to name a daughter after her mother. Such a practice is a male thing, with fathers and sons.  So, in that very touch is a kind of crossing of the gender line.   If the original Alma is the water of the sea which isolates Ennis as an island, unreachable, then perhaps Alma Jr is a reincarnation of Alma, a rebirth, a recasting of the Alma-nature, not as a sea which isolates, but as a bridge which joins.

[jimnick]

Skip A  Rope,   Skip  A  Rope,
Oh, lis-ten to the chil-dren while they play;____
Now ain't it kind-a fun-ny what the chil-dren say?
Skip  A  Rope.
 

kids are more perceptive than adults give them credit for...

Jim

[jackchristopher27]

I think she knew- she had to have known. I think maybe that was why she so seemed sympathetic to Ennis, possibly because she knew what he was going through and knew what happened. After all, Alma Jr. was really the only good thing left in Ennis' life after Jack died.  :'(

What about Francine (as she was called in the story), Ennis' other daughter?  Why isn't she around? Too young?

[jimnick]

She (Francine, Franny, Jenny or Girlchild Whoever) was in the truck and met Jack that same time that Alma Jr. did.

Sisters are close and I'll just bet that the two of them had conversations about Daddy and Jack...

Jim

[coguaro]

Alma Jr is the future for Ennis. She represents the new, more tolerant generation coming up. It is possible that she know of his father (I think that she realize why she didn't eat never a fish....) but her grace, her sensitivity and her respect for daddy doesn't permit to speak about this doubt with him. She keep in silence her love and her doubt.
I imagine that when she will be married and start to more frequent her father maybe... she will try to find a new.. Jack for Ennis.

Baci
Coguaro

[jimnick]

Alma Jr is the future for Ennis. She represents the new, more tolerant generation coming up. It is possible that she know of his father (I think that she realize why she didn't eat never a fish....) but her grace, her sensitivity and her respect for daddy doesn't permit to speak about this doubt with him. She keep in silence her love and her doubt.
I imagine that when she will be married and start to more frequent her father maybe... she will try to find a new.. Jack for Ennis.

Baci
Coguaro

Oh, you are so funny.  You make me laugh out loud.

Go, go, go

Jim

[*Froggy*]

I imagine that when she will be married and start to more frequent her father maybe... she will try to find a new.. Jack for Ennis.

How weird..not even an hour ago i was reading a similar story on fanfiction!!!

[j]

Alma Jr is the future for Ennis. She represents the new, more tolerant generation coming up. It is possible that she know of his father (I think that she realize why she didn't eat never a fish....) but her grace, her sensitivity and her respect for daddy doesn't permit to speak about this doubt with him. She keep in silence her love and her doubt.
I imagine that when she will be married and start to more frequent her father maybe... she will try to find a new.. Jack for Ennis.

Baci
Coguaro

I felt sad that Alma JR was going to get married. Way too young. Very hard to break out of that rut,there and in that era.
J

[kcristob]

I watched it last night for the fourth time.  But for the FIRST time, last night, I realized that I DO think Jr. knew about dad.  It's so subtle - or maybe I've been too wrapped up in other emotions when jr. talks about dad not being the marrying kind - but yes, I think she did know.  And loved him so much.

[ethan]

I watched it last night for the fourth time.  But for the FIRST time, last night, I realized that I DO think Jr. knew about dad.  It's so subtle - or maybe I've been too wrapped up in other emotions when jr. talks about dad not being the marrying kind - but yes, I think she did know.  And loved him so much.

I, too, think Alma Jr. knew about his dad. If there is one positive thing from BBM, it is Alma Jr who turned out to be sweet and mature girl despite all the turnmoils her family went through. One could only imagine - Alma and Ennis were good parents although they got divorced.

[scruffy]

I guess I'm the only one that thinks Alma Jr. didn't know about her dad.  After all, Alma Sr. didn't even know any more than what she saw on the steps and fabricated in her mind.   She was obviously disgusted with it judging by the "Jack nasty" scene in the kitchen.  I just can't see Alma discussing it with her children.  After all, it took years for her to mention it to Ennis.  I also can't see the children figuring it out for themselves.  After all, a lot of men have fishin' buddies and nine times out of ten it doesn't mean anything more than fishin'.  It is mentioned that Ennis was away from home a lot and to a child there is no difference between daddy being away on a fishing trip or daddy away hearding cattle in Montana.

When Alma Jr. was older she asked her daddy if she could live with him.  I don't think it was because of the new baby in the house.  I think she was afraid that her daddy was alone and she wanted in some way to keep him company.  It was mentioned before that the girls were worried that Ennis was alone.

Alma Jr. was definitely daddy's girl.  It is said that she spoke little but made her point.  The interesting thing mentioned is that Alma represents the future.  On that I totally agree.  The very last scene she tells her father that she's getting married.  Yep, at 19.  Guess what age Jack and Ennis were when they met on Brokeback Mountain.  As Alma Jr. tells her daddy that her fiancee does indeed love her she takes off her coat in the trailer and after the toast she leaves it behind.  That is what Ennis is folding up to put into the closet when he sees the shirts.  I'm assuming Ennis realizes it is his daughter's time.  She has the love of a man -- a new love and a future ahead to share with a significant other.  Ennis had that choice once but his time has passed.  We can only guess what is going through Ennis' mind at the time.  I guess it is up to us to examine our own personal demons and "what ifs" to really understand.

I wish I was 19 again.

[Patriot1]

I wish I was 19 again.

This is a strange thing for an athiest to say, but ---- *****AMEN*****

[minara]

I am almost positive that Alma Jr. knew about Jack and Ennis' love.  She would have been blind not to.  Kids are perceptive.

[kcristob]

When I watched the movie the fourth time, it was the way the Alma jr gazed out (when talking to cassie) and said "maybe he's just not the marrying kind."  Her whole interaction with cassie.  I think there was a subtext that she "knew."

[tweric]

I guess I'm the only one that thinks Alma Jr. didn't know about her dad.

You are not alone... I also think that Alma Jr. didn't know about her dad. The movie simple didn't give much info on this one. The short story gave even less. A lot of Alam Jr.'s reactions/interactions in the movie/short story(well, just Ennis will stay with her for a while, and Alma Jr. is very shy) are just those of a normal shy/mature early/understaning young girl...

[scruffy]

When I watched the movie the fourth time, it was the way the Alma jr gazed out (when talking to cassie) and said "maybe he's just not the marrying kind."  Her whole interaction with cassie.  I think there was a subtext that she "knew."

I can really understand where people see some insight in Alma Jr's comment to Cassie but I'm still not totally convinced that she knew.  I see "not the marrying kind" comment more as a reflection of what she saw her parents going through as she was growing up, namely an absentee father who began to fight with his wife towards the end of the marriage.  Moreso, Alma Jr. loved her daddy and I see the comments more as a typical daughter's reaction to the new woman in her father's life -- a third wheel sucking away what little quality time Alma Jr. gets with her father.

[lacy8753]

I dont think she knew. She didnt pick up anything when she was a little girl. The only way she would have known is if her mom told her which I doubt because Alma Sr. could keep a secret for as long as she needed to (she didnt confront Ennis about Jack during her marriage-only after). Alma Jr loved her daddy unconditiionally. She didnt know.

[jimnick]

I think Alma Jr. knew.  I won't try to convince anyone else to agree with me, thought I know many do, but many don't and that's OK too.  One of the beautiful things about this movie/story is that so many people come away with so many differing opinions about what the what, the why, the who, the how.  Fascinating!  Anyway, for me, growing up with five siblings in a small house, there was not much we didn't know about each other.  Certainly, I have never been a mystery to my family.  People who know you, know you.

Jim

[Apollonos]

One of the beautiful things about this movie/story is that so many people come away with so many differing opinions about what the what, the why, the who, the how.  Fascinating!  Anyway, for me, growing up with five siblings in a small house, there was not much we didn't know about each other.  Certainly, I have never been a mystery to my family.  People who know you, know you.

Jim

I seem to remember seeing an interview in which Annie Proulx said that she deliberatiely wrote the story with a certain degree of ambiguity, so it's not surprising for us to come away with differrent impressions. At the same time, we're talking about a small family living in a small town. In small towns, people usually know way too much about everybody else's business, and the same thing goes for families in small towns. As close as Alma Jr. was to her daddy, she didn't need anyone to tell her about Ennis: she would have figured it out just by observing her daddy over the years. Just hearing Jack's name, and seeing how happy her daddy was every time he came back from a "fishing trip" with Jack would have been enough for her to connect the dots.

[Sitaram]

One of the beautiful things about this movie/story is that so many people come away with so many differing opinions about what the what, the why, the who, the how.  Fascinating!  Anyway, for me, growing up with five siblings in a small house, there was not much we didn't know about each other.  Certainly, I have never been a mystery to my family.  People who know you, know you.

Jim

I seem to remember seeing an interview in which Annie Proulx said that she deliberatiely wrote the story with a certain degree of ambiguity, so it's not surprising for us to come away with differrent impressions. At the same time, we're talking about a small family living in a small town. In small towns, people usually know way too much about everybody else's business, and the same thing goes for families in small towns. As close as Alma Jr. was to her daddy, she didn't need anyone to tell her about Ennis: she would have figured it out just by observing her daddy over the years. Just hearing Jack's name, and seeing how happy her daddy was every time he came back from a "fishing trip" with Jack would have been enough for her to connect the dots.

This entire phenomenon of our interpretation reminds me of a projective test like Rorschach (the ink blots).  We project what is within us outwardly into what we subjectively see and experience.  Perhaps this rorschach quality is the hallmark of many great works of art.

[kcristob]

Along the lines of the story having ambiguity:  I read somewhere that Annie P said (and I paraphrase):

[the story is not complete until the reader interprets it.]


That says it all.  I love the varying interpretations, and really they are all true.

[Sitaram]

Along the lines of the story having ambiguity:  I read somewhere that Annie P said (and I paraphrase):

[the story is not complete until the reader interprets it.]

I am reminded of Salman Rushdie's comment that a novel (or short story) has a life of it's own.

Part of that life is the final process of our interpretation.


That says it all.  I love the varying interpretations, and really they are all true.

[Patriot1]

This entire phenomenon of our interpretation reminds me of a projective test like Rorschach (the ink blots).  We project what is within us outwardly into what we subjectively see and experience.  Perhaps this rorschach quality is the hallmark of many great works of art.

Oh I couldn't agree with you more Sitaram.  A truly great artist, no matter the medium, creats a work of art so that every person that looks at/listens to it will come away with something they like or can appreciate.

Annie Proulx, Ang Lee, Jacob Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger are such artists.  In my view, they are right up there with Michale Angelo, Leonardo da Vinci , etc.

[rabjr1]

artist friend of mine always says "Good artists borrow.  Great artists steal"

[lacy8753]

I guess I'm the only one that thinks Alma Jr. didn't know about her dad.  After all, Alma Sr. didn't even know any more than what she saw on the steps and fabricated in her mind.   She was obviously disgusted with it judging by the "Jack nasty" scene in the kitchen.  I just can't see Alma discussing it with her children.  After all, it took years for her to mention it to Ennis.  I also can't see the children figuring it out for themselves.  After all, a lot of men have fishin' buddies and nine times out of ten it doesn't mean anything more than fishin'.  It is mentioned that Ennis was away from home a lot and to a child there is no difference between daddy being away on a fishing trip or daddy away hearding cattle in Montana.

When Alma Jr. was older she asked her daddy if she could live with him.  I don't think it was because of the new baby in the house.  I think she was afraid that her daddy was alone and she wanted in some way to keep him company.  It was mentioned before that the girls were worried that Ennis was alone.

Alma Jr. was definitely daddy's girl.  It is said that she spoke little but made her point.  The interesting thing mentioned is that Alma represents the future.  On that I totally agree.  The very last scene she tells her father that she's getting married.  Yep, at 19.  Guess what age Jack and Ennis were when they met on Brokeback Mountain.  As Alma Jr. tells her daddy that her fiancee does indeed love her she takes off her coat in the trailer and after the toast she leaves it behind.  That is what Ennis is folding up to put into the closet when he sees the shirts.  I'm assuming Ennis realizes it is his daughter's time.  She has the love of a man -- a new love and a future ahead to share with a significant other.  Ennis had that choice once but his time has passed.  We can only guess what is going through Ennis' mind at the time.  I guess it is up to us to examine our own personal demons and "what ifs" to really understand.

I wish I was 19 again.

I agreee with you. I dont think Alma would have told her girls. And hearing that your dad is gay in the early 80's was not necessarily something that she would easily accept. Jr. really didnt like Cassie. Girls do not want their daddies to have other women in their lives and thats why she asked Ennis if she couild live with him and why she was cold to Cassie. She totally loved her daddy and I do not think she knew he was gay.

[donnaread]

I just thought of something that never occurred to me before...hope I didn't miss it in another post.  If Alma Jr had been keeping in touch with her dad...she had to know that Ennis was no longer going on his "fishing trips" with Jack.  I can't picture Ennis telling her that Jack was dead.  So she must have wondered what was going on, don't you think?  Also I am sure than Ennis would not have been "himself" after Jack's death.  Anyone else have any thoughts on this? :-\

Donna