Author Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers (Read 147970 times)

tpe · « **on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:24 PM »

gjz24 brought up this question regarding a troubling part of the last meeting of Ennis and Jack. Let me paraphrase this passage from the movie (which, btw, is totally absent from the story):

Jack: I wish I knew how to quit you...

Ennis: Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...

Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?

Your thoughts...

Toadily · « **Reply #1 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:27 PM »

No , it's not Jack's fault but Ennis does think this to a degree I think at that point.

tpe · « **Reply #2 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:39 PM »

Quote from: Toadily on Jan 24, 2006, 06:27 PM

No , it's not Jack's fault but Ennis does think this to a degree I think at that point.

Yes, Toadily, to what degree is a bit puzzling. Although Ennis may refer here to his poverty, I think his main accusation is that Jack, to some degree, is to blame for his failed marriage and his inability to love anybody else with true depth and passion. It is almost as if Ennis was blaming Jack for his (Ennis) being in love with him (jack)!!!!

Toadily · « **Reply #3 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:40 PM »

I think so too, you know how when you are in denial you blame everyone else? It's like what he is doing here. And he is also crying out to Jack for help like "hey you are why I am broke and lost and so please understand why I can't get away"

j · « **Reply #4 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:44 PM »

Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?

Your thoughts...

Quote

I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J

tpe · « **Reply #5 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:46 PM »

Quote from: Toadily on Jan 24, 2006, 06:40 PM

I think so too, you know how when you are in denial you blame everyone else? It's like what he is doing here. And he is also crying out to Jack for help like "hey you are why I am broke and lost and so please understand why I can't get away"

So you do agree that even at that late point, Ennis was still in denial that he himself is equally to blame for his present misery? He must have realized Jack's point that he squandered an opportunity for a 'sweet life'. So I guess a self defence mechanism would be to deny one's culpabililty and blame the other for everything...

jackchristopher27 · « **Reply #6 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:47 PM »

I don't think that Ennis can blame Jack for being the way he is. Love goes two-ways in a relationship- I don't think Ennis meant what he said very literal, it was just an odd way of him to express how Jack's love totally changed his life, even if not for the best. I thought it was almost adorable...in an interesting way; Ennis was indirectly saying that his love for Jack was so deep that it blew him off his feet and messed up his entire life. If only situations and times were different, this wouldn't have been a negative thing, but in their very homophobic atmosphere it never could have worked.

Maybe what Ennis said to try to wound Jack came up in the heat of the moment, and he was taking his frustrations out on Jack because he just wanted to be with him. Ennis seems to always have an excuse or something/one to blame, and this was just a way for Ennis to do that- blame Jack. To me, it was heart-crushingly romantic. An amazing, emotion filled scene.

tpe · « **Reply #7 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:48 PM »

Quote from: j on Jan 24, 2006, 06:44 PM

Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?

Your thoughts...
Quote

I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J

j, this is an interesting point of view. But now that you said it, it does seem plausible, given Ennis' inherent homophobia (and his denial of it)...

tpe · « **Reply #8 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:51 PM »

Quote from: jackchrisopher27 on Jan 24, 2006, 06:47 PM

I don't think that Ennis can blame Jack for being the way he is. Love goes two-ways in a relationship- I don't think Ennis meant what he said very literal, it was just an odd way of him to express how Jack's love totally changed his life, even if not for the best. I thought it was almost adorable...in an interesting way; Ennis was indirectly saying that his love for Jack was so deep that it blew him off his feet and messed up his entire life. If only situations and times were different, this wouldn't have been a negative thing, but in their very homophobic atmosphere it never could have worked.

Maybe what Ennis said to try to wound Jack came up in the heat of the moment, and he was taking his frustrations out on Jack because he just wanted to be with him. Ennis seems to always have an excuse or something/one to blame, and this was just a way for Ennis to do that- blame Jack. To me, it was heart-crushingly romantic. An amazing, emotion filled scene.

jackchrisopher27, I highlighted the comment because I think it contains more than a grain of truth to it. Jack did seem to try to reach out to Ennis after this, as opposed to becoming totally angry. In a way, it is because Jack realized that HE DID MATTER A GREAT DEAL IN ENNIS' LIFE.

j · « **Reply #9 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:53 PM »

I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J

Quote

j, this is an interesting point of view. But now that you said it, it does seem plausible, given Ennis' inherent homophobia (and his denial of it)...

Quote

Yes. I feel that Ennis would have stayed *straight* most likely if he had not met Jack.
I will tell you that a LOT of older people think that GAY people are made not born that way<sigh>

Poor Ennis. : (

J

Toadily · « **Reply #10 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 06:58 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 24, 2006, 06:46 PM

Quote from: Toadily on Jan 24, 2006, 06:40 PM
I think so too, you know how when you are in denial you blame everyone else? It's like what he is doing here. And he is also crying out to Jack for help like "hey you are why I am broke and lost and so please understand why I can't get away"

So you do agree that even at that late point, Ennis was still in denial that he himself is equally to blame for his present misery? He must have realized Jack's point that he squandered an opportunity for a 'sweet life'. So I guess a self defence mechanism would be to deny one's culpabililty and blame the other for everything...

Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.

j · « **Reply #11 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 07:03 PM »

Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.

Quote

You think Jack DIED from the *accident* instead of being murdered?

J

Toadily · « **Reply #12 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 07:05 PM »

Quote from: j on Jan 24, 2006, 07:03 PM

Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.
Quote

You think Jack DIED from the *accident* instead of being murdered?

J

I think the way Proulx wrote the story we are suppose to believe Ennis was correct in thinking it was the tire iron, a murder. And she wrote the story to address homophobia.

j · « **Reply #13 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 07:21 PM »

Quote from: Toadily on Jan 24, 2006, 07:05 PM

Quote from: j on Jan 24, 2006, 07:03 PM

Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.
Quote

You think Jack DIED from the *accident* instead of being murdered?

J

I think the way Proulx wrote the story we are suppose to believe Ennis was correct in thinking it was the tire iron, a murder. And she wrote the story to address homophobia.

I'm confused. Lureen told Ennis that Jack died because of the bizarre accident. What exactly did she say?I remember that he supposedly was changing a tire and thecap went flying into his chest.Tell me about the tire iron, please.

Thanks
J

Toadily · « **Reply #14 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 07:35 PM »

Quote from: j on Jan 24, 2006, 07:21 PM

Quote from: Toadily on Jan 24, 2006, 07:05 PM
Quote from: j on Jan 24, 2006, 07:03 PM

Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.
Quote

You think Jack DIED from the *accident* instead of being murdered?

J

I think the way Proulx wrote the story we are suppose to believe Ennis was correct in thinking it was the tire iron, a murder. And she wrote the story to address homophobia.

I'm confused. Lureen told Ennis that Jack died because of the bizarre accident. What exactly did she say?I remember that he supposedly was changing a tire and thecap went flying into his chest.Tell me about the tire iron, please.

Thanks
J

In the short story Ennis equates the tire iron to JAck getting killed by an angry homophobic mob. Thus his flash scene of that being how Jack was killed.

jakeofrome · « **Reply #15 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 07:36 PM »

"Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back. By the time someone came along he had drowned in his own blood."

In the movie, you see what Ennis is thinking instead.
From the short story:

"No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron."

Also from the story, when Ennis visits Jack's parents:

"So now he knew it had been the tire iron."

j · « **Reply #16 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 08:05 PM »

In the short story Ennis equates the tire iron to JAck getting killed by an angry homophobic mob. Thus his flash scene of that being how Jack was killed.

Quote

There is no way in my thinking that Jack died from this bizarre accident. Interesting how we all hav different takes on things.

J

j · « **Reply #17 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 08:07 PM »

Quote from: jakeofrome on Jan 24, 2006, 07:36 PM

"Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back. By the time someone came along he had drowned in his own blood."

In the movie, you see what Ennis is thinking instead.
From the short story:

"No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron."

Also from the story, when Ennis visits Jack's parents:

"So now he knew it had been the tire iron."

I didn't come away from the movie thinking this at all. I felt the parents REALLY knew that their son ws murdered not had diedfrom this weird accident.
Thanks for your reply.
J

camom · « **Reply #18 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 08:15 PM »

Also, the very last part of the story says (paraphrasing, don't have it right in front of me) "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, and if you can't fix it, you got a stand it."

I took this to mean that he KNEW Jack was murdered, but he wanted to BELIEVE it was an accident. So in some part his grief was due to having to "stand" knowing Jack was murdered, probably while he (Jack) was searching for a temporary substitute for Ennis. That would tie into his "Jack, I swear..." which I believe meant many, many things--all his regrets, all the unexpressed love, the repression, the rejections of Jack--clearly more than he was able to verbalize.

jimnick · « **Reply #19 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 08:17 PM »

To come away with a slightly different understanding of what Ennis meant, I feel that the was not blaming Jack for his being gay when he said, "It's because of you..." I think what he was saying was, "It's because of the way I feel about you... I don't think he is blaming Jack per se, but blaming his feelings for Jack.

The Mexico thing wouldn't have hurt him so, if it weren't about his love for Jack.

Jim

camom · « **Reply #20 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 08:22 PM »

Jack: I wish I knew how to quit you...

Ennis: Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...

Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?

Your thoughts...

Quote

I think Ennis is reacting to Jack's painful words ("I wish I knew how to quit you"). He's lashing out, but he's also being completely truthful, maybe for the first time in their relationship. In their own individual way, each of them is telling the other that they are hopelessly in love and can't let go, no matter how difficult the circumstances. Jack can't quit Ennis, and Ennis has given up all hopes for a decent life for Jack's sake. Jeez, this is sad.

jakeofrome · « **Reply #21 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 08:47 PM »

Quote from: camom on Jan 24, 2006, 08:15 PM

Also, the very last part of the story says (paraphrasing, don't have it right in front of me) "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, and if you can't fix it, you got a stand it."

I do also think this relates more to "the things he didn't know about jack" than to his death per se.

ethan · « **Reply #22 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 08:51 PM »

It is very interesting topic. Some topics make me think for days before I could even respond and this is one of them.

The way I read it and how I feel is not to read too much bewteen the line.

Remember Ennis was emotional. When one is deeply emotional, any hurtful thing can come out. Ennis's response was largely his frastration with his life - no money, no nothing and his only Jack is far away. If Ennis had a chance, I am sure he would apologize to Jack for saying this (at least I hope).

Jack definitely is not the reason of his misery. Jack loves him dearly. What troubles has Jack brought him? Did Ennis think his love with Jack is a burden? I don't think so.

The only time we see true Ennis is when he is with Jack. Just my two cents.

camom · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 09:11 PM »

Quote from: jakeofrome on Jan 24, 2006, 08:47 PM

Quote from: camom on Jan 24, 2006, 08:15 PM
Also, the very last part of the story says (paraphrasing, don't have it right in front of me) "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, and if you can't fix it, you got a stand it."

I do also think this relates more to "the things he didn't know about jack" than to his death per se.

I didn't think of that one. I'm guessing that like "Jack, I swear..." it means many things.

camom

bnjmn3 · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 09:21 PM »

"You are the reason I am like this." Ennis is torn between what he knows he wants and what he thinks he can actually have. When Ennis says "leave me be" he knows that if Jack were not in his life he could live alone and not deal with these emotions he cannot even express or describe without fear of public retribution. I try not to superimpose our contemporary terms of gay or homosexual onto BBM. Ennis and Jack did not use these terms...we have to try to think of what is in their minds and life experiences and accept it for what it is..not our wish for what we want for them. I know that is very difficult. BMM is such great art. Thanks for the great thread.

Kindred · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 24, 2006, 10:25 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 24, 2006, 06:24 PM

gjz24 brought up this question regarding a troubling part of the last meeting of Ennis and Jack. Let me paraphrase this passage from the movie (which, btw, is totally absent from the story):

Jack: I wish I knew how to quit you...

Ennis: Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...

Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?

Your thoughts...

Besides the obvious implication about his financial status, I thought it was Ennis' way of expressing "I wish I knew how to quit you." There is a tone of accusation when he says "Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be?" Each is so in love with the other, even to their own detriment. He does seem to blame Jack, not necessarily for "turning him gay" but more for simply being the person that he loves so dearly. When we have an obsession, I think it's easier to blame that object for being so desirous to us rather than admit weakness on our part.

jimnick · « **Reply #26 on:** Jan 25, 2006, 09:54 AM »

It's human nature to blame the object of your affection. It must be somebody elses fault...

"You witch, you cast a spell on me!"

"You made me love you" (I didn't want to do it, ha! more like: you woke me up to do it)

"It's because of you..."

It all comes from within. ...because each is so completely consummately in love with the other that neither can accept responsibility for his own emotions.

and all they really want to do is love each other.

Jim

gjz24 · « **Reply #27 on:** Jan 25, 2006, 03:08 PM »

Thank Tpe for bring my question here, and for all the replies. I am thinking about this for a long time...Form the words I can tell Ennis felt a little bit resentment and more grievance. Ennis cannot have a normal life, cannot love others anymore, because Jack is in his heart. He already tried everything he can do to keep their love. even though they never really expressed the love. even though Jack think what Ennis have done is not enough. But because of the extreme fear from Ennis, what he can reach is keep the love secret. He felt frustrated when he realized that he can do nothing about their love, and he felt grieved that Jack cannot feel his love, and he felt sorry for himself that he cannot make Jack know he love him. That is why he broke out in tear and said" because of you, I am nobody,nowhere." What he really wanna say is " Can't you see that I love you too, you son of bitch.". Oh, it is so so sad.

coguaro · « **Reply #28 on:** Jan 25, 2006, 05:04 PM »

i agree with you... that was the Ennis way to confirm his eternal, unconditioned love to Jack. The words he used could appear.. offensive... or ingrates... but thats words have the same meant of his fists leaving for the first time Brokeback Mountain twenty years before... they exprime the frustration to cant be able to give the love he would give and to cant live withou Jack!

baci
coguaro

rabjr1 · « **Reply #29 on:** Jan 25, 2006, 05:04 PM »

They weere two people that meet by chance on a job herding sheep. If it were someone else, not Jack Twist, we would not have this story. Jack and Ennis have a chemistry that makes them doomed (?) to fall in love. It is not because of Jack that Ennis is what he is, it is the primal attraction for each other that is why they both are what they are. It is because Ennis is ALSO attracted to Jack as much as Jack is attracted to Ennis.

I think there is someone for everyone out there whether they are straight or not that we could have a realtionship like Jack's and Ennis's. The end might be different for each one of us.