Author Topic: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?  (Read 14036 times)

Offline daveya26

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Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« on: Jan 26, 2006, 07:17 AM »
Hi

It just occured to me - do you think that J & E wouldve had male friends (besides each other)? I cant imagine Ennis going down the pub with the lads for a few pints somehow.  I guess, in that time period, work and family would take up most people's time and leave little room for anything else.

Also, in one scene we see how Ennis is reluctant to go to the 'Church Social' with his wife so it doesnt seem as if he likes to socialise at all anyway.  When they do go out to the fireworks or the cinema, they go as a family and we dont see them speak to anyone else.

Jack is obviously a lot more outgoing than Ennis - they meet Randall and his wife at the bar/restuaurant so it seems like he & Lureen would be more likely to have friends.

Offline Aela

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #1 on: Jan 26, 2006, 08:55 AM »
I don't think Ennis would have had any friends.  I think his family would have been enough for him.  I'm a loner/introvert as well, so I can understand that implicitly.  My husband is my best friend, and apart from him I have maybe 4 good friends who I don't even see very often.  More outgoing people would probably think, "Oh, how sad."  But in fact, it doesn't bother me in the least...it's hard to get extroverts to understand that one can be perfectly content without a bunch of friends.  So I doubt that Ennis even gave it a moment's thought, or that it bothered him.

Jack is obviously more outgoing, and more the type to have/want friends, but I'm not sure that he had any.  I'm sure he tried to make friends, but the people around him didn't seem to like him very much.  WItness the guys at the tractor shop who were sort of snickering at Jack behind his back, basically calling him a loser.  ("Didn't he used to rodeo?"..."Well, he TRIED." HaHaHaHa.)  The tragedy of Jack is that he just didn't seem to fit in anywhere.  Then you have the rodeo clown who Jack was hitting on....I wonder who quickly rumours of Jack's orientation would have spread around where he lived.  This could be another cause of men not wanting to befriend him.  Anyway, I think if Jack and Lureen had friends, they would have been *Lureen's* friends and/or business associates, not really Jack's.

I think both Jack and Ennis were isolated.  Ennis by choice, Jack by the meanness of people.
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Offline francis.shim

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #2 on: Jan 27, 2006, 01:31 AM »
I don't think Ennis would have had any friends.  I think his family would have been enough for him.  I'm a loner/introvert as well, so I can understand that implicitly.  My husband is my best friend, and apart from him I have maybe 4 good friends who I don't even see very often.  More outgoing people would probably think, "Oh, how sad."  But in fact, it doesn't bother me in the least...it's hard to get extroverts to understand that one can be perfectly content without a bunch of friends.  So I doubt that Ennis even gave it a moment's thought, or that it bothered him.

Jack is obviously more outgoing, and more the type to have/want friends, but I'm not sure that he had any.  I'm sure he tried to make friends, but the people around him didn't seem to like him very much.  WItness the guys at the tractor shop who were sort of snickering at Jack behind his back, basically calling him a loser.  ("Didn't he used to rodeo?"..."Well, he TRIED." HaHaHaHa.)  The tragedy of Jack is that he just didn't seem to fit in anywhere.  Then you have the rodeo clown who Jack was hitting on....I wonder who quickly rumours of Jack's orientation would have spread around where he lived.  This could be another cause of men not wanting to befriend him.  Anyway, I think if Jack and Lureen had friends, they would have been *Lureen's* friends and/or business associates, not really Jack's.

I think both Jack and Ennis were isolated.  Ennis by choice, Jack by the meanness of people.

Very well said... except Ennis I think his choice was also influenced by the meanness of people... in this case, his own father.

Frank

Offline Sitaram

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #3 on: Jan 30, 2006, 07:11 AM »
Hi

It just occured to me - do you think that J & E wouldve had male friends (besides each other)? I cant imagine Ennis going down the pub with the lads for a few pints somehow.  I guess, in that time period, work and family would take up most people's time and leave little room for anything else.

Also, in one scene we see how Ennis is reluctant to go to the 'Church Social' with his wife so it doesnt seem as if he likes to socialise at all anyway.  When they do go out to the fireworks or the cinema, they go as a family and we dont see them speak to anyone else.

Jack is obviously a lot more outgoing than Ennis - they meet Randall and his wife at the bar/restuaurant so it seems like he & Lureen would be more likely to have friends.

Great observation! Important question!  I learn so much of value from others here.

Thanks.

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Offline Lars-Gunnar

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #4 on: Jan 30, 2006, 07:12 AM »
I don't think Ennis would have had any friends.  I think his family would have been enough for him.  I'm a loner/introvert as well, so I can understand that implicitly.  My husband is my best friend, and apart from him I have maybe 4 good friends who I don't even see very often.  More outgoing people would probably think, "Oh, how sad."  But in fact, it doesn't bother me in the least...it's hard to get extroverts to understand that one can be perfectly content without a bunch of friends.  So I doubt that Ennis even gave it a moment's thought, or that it bothered him.

Jack is obviously more outgoing, and more the type to have/want friends, but I'm not sure that he had any.  I'm sure he tried to make friends, but the people around him didn't seem to like him very much.  WItness the guys at the tractor shop who were sort of snickering at Jack behind his back, basically calling him a loser.  ("Didn't he used to rodeo?"..."Well, he TRIED." HaHaHaHa.)  The tragedy of Jack is that he just didn't seem to fit in anywhere.  Then you have the rodeo clown who Jack was hitting on....I wonder who quickly rumours of Jack's orientation would have spread around where he lived.  This could be another cause of men not wanting to befriend him.  Anyway, I think if Jack and Lureen had friends, they would have been *Lureen's* friends and/or business associates, not really Jack's.

I think both Jack and Ennis were isolated.  Ennis by choice, Jack by the meanness of people.

Hi there, Aela;
I agree with you!

As for Ennis, we see clearly through the story that Ennis is a loner. The only ones to lighten him up, besides Jack, are his daughters. At the first page of the short story, we can read this: "He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream." I.e. Ennis does not have any friends he can stay with... I think Ennis has been formed by his father and his own mind; and that being a loner is the natural thing for him. Even though it dooms him to a life in loneliness. He is not very outgoing, and even Jack is taken aback when he talks more than usual - I mean the scene when Ennis is telling Jack about his growing up with his brother and sister, having to drop out of school due to the broken pick up etc... Jack was probably the only person Ennis felt he could really open up to, but he was still kinda careful baring his soul.

As for Jack, I agree that he is also lonely, mainly by the meanness of people. He did not find his place anywhere. Even when he "settles down" with Lureen and becomes a father; he is constantly ridiculed by his father in law - and as Aela points out; the guys like those at the tractor shop... I think you can see the loneliness he feels reflected in his face all the time. Even when he's dancing with Lureen, there is a moment where you can see that his mind is elsewhere. The void in Jack's life, was not being able to be with Ennis all the time. I believe this makes Jack deeply unhappy, and no friendship or lover could ever fill this void. When he has cheerfully approached Jimbo the rodeoclown, you can see how fast he is transforming from cheerful to lonely when Jimbo turns him down. Also note the way Jimbo is anxiously glancing at the bartender... It's like he's is thinking "It's not good for me to be seen talking to Jack Twist!". So he leaves Jack, and then you see the the shadow of unhappiness cloud over Jack's face. He must have felt like an outcast... And therefore he's lashing out on the bartender, who tries to talk to him about calf-roping....

I think one of the moments in the story when Jack feels lonely like never before, is when he has driven 1200 miles to Wyoming after learning about Ennis' divorce; when everything is a mistake, and Jack has to drive all the way back to Texas... When he is crying in his car on the way back, my heart really goes out to him... He is singing "King of the road" on the way to Ennis, believing that eveything will be all right now, and on the way back - he's a mess... What a gigantic disappointment that must have been for him....

« Last Edit: Jan 30, 2006, 07:27 AM by Lars-Gunnar »

Offline Sitaram

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #5 on: Jan 30, 2006, 07:21 AM »
When he cheerfully approached Jimbo the rodeoclown, you can see how fast he is transforming from cheerful to lonely. He must have been feeling like an outcast. Thus he lashes out to the bartender who just after Jimbo leaves Jack at the counter wonders if Jack has ever tried calf roping", and Jack answers angrily somthing like "Do I look like I can afford a horse??", and then turns to leave.


As I read your words above, I am suddenly struck with the possibility of a greater, deeper significance.

Why, I ask myself, would calf roping require the luxury of owning a horse.  Is it because, in order to be skillful, you MUST ride your own horse, a horse which you work with daily, intimately, until the two of you become one, a team, kindred spirits.  You cannot simply borrow a horse for a day, for such a performance; "a one shot thing."

A life long kindred spirit is like such a horse, a wealth and a luxury, enabling a great performance.
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Offline rabjr1

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #6 on: Jan 30, 2006, 07:27 AM »
When he cheerfully approached Jimbo the rodeoclown, you can see how fast he is transforming from cheerful to lonely. He must have been feeling like an outcast. Thus he lashes out to the bartender who just after Jimbo leaves Jack at the counter wonders if Jack has ever tried calf roping", and Jack answers angrily somthing like "Do I look like I can afford a horse??", and then turns to leave.


As I read your words above, I am suddenly struck with the possibility of a greater, deeper significance.

Why, I ask myself, would calf roping require the luxury of owning a horse.  Is it because, in order to be skillful, you MUST ride your own horse, a horse which you work with daily, intimately, until the two of you become one, a team, kindred spirits.  You cannot simply borrow a horse for a day, for such a performance; "a one shot thing."

A life long kindred spirit is like such a horse, a wealth and a luxury, enabling a great performance.


I believe he says "roping horse"  I believe that in order to be in these competitions one needs a specialty horse.  And of course owning any kind of horse requires extra income for feed/etc. etc.

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Offline rabjr1

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #7 on: Jan 30, 2006, 07:31 AM »
Ennis grew up with emotional baggage foisted upon him by a stoic upbringing.  He probably does not make friends easily only due to the trust factor.  But when he does it is lifelong.  He treasures his friendships, guards them.

Jack could probably make more fieinds BUT he might come across as being too forward for comfort.  He is probably unaware of this and thus suffers from rejection by other men who have a built in distrust of people who might seem a little peculiar/needy(?)
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Offline Lars-Gunnar

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #8 on: Jan 30, 2006, 07:34 AM »
Ennis grew up with emotional baggage foisted upon him by a stoic upbringing.  He probably does not make friends easily only due to the trust factor.  But when he does it is lifelong.  He treasures his friendships, guards them.

Jack could probably make more fieinds BUT he might come across as being too forward for comfort.  He is probably unaware of this and thus suffers from rejection by other men who have a built in distrust of people who might seem a little peculiar/needy(?)

Hi there, rabjr1! I think you really said it there about Jack. His outgoing manners, and his style - that I am sure Jimbo considered "flirty" - it is clear that he is not comfortable being around Jack.

Offline francis.shim

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #9 on: Jan 30, 2006, 11:30 AM »
Howdy...

It seems more and more that we are agreeing that Ennis was an introvert and Jack was the extrovert.  A case of opposites attract(?)

I think there is a lot going on here than meets the eye...

Remember when the sheeps got mixed up with another herders' and as a result they had to spend a lot of time sorting them out... but some of the brands were worn down?

Well, I was just thinking if we draw an analogy of Ennis belonging to one herd and Jack belonging to the other herd and unexpectedly met each other (and fall in love) then the herd owners and herders represent our social norms; hence, they try to sort the sheeps apart if they mix.  Wow!

Does anybody see a connection?

Peace,
Frank

Offline Mahogany

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #10 on: Oct 07, 2014, 10:59 AM »
Jack is more extrovert and has a social life and talk to other people.
Ennis is closed and shy.

I really would like to see some fellas trying to socialize with Ennis before and after the reunion (excluding the asphalt guy), I mean regular fellas about his age, maybe some friendly coworkers inviting him to go out to drink or hunt, I'd like to see how he would react.

Offline bluemountainsky

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #11 on: Oct 07, 2014, 01:37 PM »
Agree, Ennis didn't have any friends, and he was okay with that. He was an introvert, "loner" type. He didn't fit in, and he felt very uncomfortable in crowds or groups of people (examples are the fourth of July party, or the time when Alma wanted to go the church social, but he refused, or at work where Ennis seemed to not make anything beyond small-talk with co-workers)...just a few examples but they get the point across that he hated being around a lot of people. Ennis also liked the solitude and the quiet. Even when he did go out, Ennis was alone (like the Riverton bar/restuarant). He also did not really talk to people, and they would have picked up on that fact as "oh, he must not want to be bothered". Often times what happens with very introverted people like Ennis is that their lover, their significant other, is also their best friend, and the only real relationship in their life. This is obviously how Ennis was like...around Jack he opened up and talked, laughed, smiled, was playful and funny, and felt comfortable to talk about his life and his worries. It's because Jack was the only person he trusted, and felt close to, and felt like the only friend he really needed. Ennis was only that way with Jack, but for other introverts, they may have a few more people whom they are comfortable around. They have a few friends and the relationships they have with people are never superficial. They tend to treasure the few relationships they have, because they don't just open up to anyone, and tend to want deeper relationships, not casual ones. Knowing an introvert like Ennis is like a precious gift, because introverts don't let many people see the real person they are. Ennis didn't mind being alone, except for Jack, that's the only person he wanted to be around.

As for Jack, he was more of an extrovert, outgoing, he liked meeting new people. He felt comfortable in crowds and new environments, (such as how he liked to rodeo and wasn't nervous about being in front of people) But Jack was an in environment that he felt uncomfortable in. In Childress, he just never felt at home. He had to deal with Lureen's family, who obviously didn't approve of him from day one, and he felt like Lureen was also a stranger. When he tried to be outgoing there, he was quickly humiliated (Jimbo scene), it showed how ostracized Jack felt all those years. Jack probably wanted to make friends, but no one in Childress wanted to be around him much. Now that would be perfectly fine with Jack if Ennis was in Texas living with him, but Ennis was a thousand miles away, and Jack only got to see him a few times a year. The rest of the time, Jack felt alone even though he was surrounded by people, because those people did not really like Jack. Hence, when Randall comes alone and talks to him, he takes that opportunity because he's been feeling so lonely for years, that he's glad for the company, and that someone in Childress is finally being friendly to him.
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #12 on: Oct 09, 2014, 01:41 AM »
Ennis may not be the salesman that Jack was, he was no isolated loner. He had a friend willing to let him and Jack use the cabin. He was acquainted with Alma's boss when he went to drop off the kids. He could be social and had social graces when necessary. He was just not interested, being caught up in fantasies of Jack. After all, before the two met on Brokeback, it was Ennis who had a fiancée, not Jack. It was Ennis who managed to snag the young Cassie, while Jack, though the extrovert and social butterfly, had to go to Mexico. He wasn't too social with the rodeo clown either. We are never too sure about him and Randall in the end. Jack was all show and little substance, while Ennis was the quiet one getting the job done, with sheep and with women, and with men, too, platonically.

The reason the two got off so well together on Brokeback was because they fitted each other perfectly. The clowning yet inwardly insecure Jack enjoyed the laconic yet self-confident Ennis. The two fitted together like hand in glove, or two shirts one inside the other.
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Offline bluemountainsky

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #13 on: Oct 09, 2014, 02:14 PM »
Ennis may not be the salesman that Jack was, he was no isolated loner. He had a friend willing to let him and Jack use the cabin. He was acquainted with Alma's boss when he went to drop off the kids. He could be social and had social graces when necessary. He was just not interested, being caught up in fantasies of Jack. After all, before the two met on Brokeback, it was Ennis who had a fiancée, not Jack. It was Ennis who managed to snag the young Cassie, while Jack, though the extrovert and social butterfly, had to go to Mexico. He wasn't too social with the rodeo clown either. We are never too sure about him and Randall in the end. Jack was all show and little substance, while Ennis was the quiet one getting the job done, with sheep and with women, and with men, too, platonically.

The reason the two got off so well together on Brokeback was because they fitted each other perfectly. The clowning yet inwardly insecure Jack enjoyed the laconic yet self-confident Ennis. The two fitted together like hand in glove, or two shirts one inside the other.

I disagree. Ennis was a loner, even his name means that he was an island, but that doesn't mean that his life was empty. He had the most important person, Jack. And Ennis just did not like being around many people. He valued his solititude, and only wanted to be around Jack. When Jack wasn't around, Ennis could be alone for months, it didn't bother him. He didn't need socializing to fulfill him.  In fact, Ennis is was probably one of those people whom would get a headache after socializing and need to recharge alone. Also, Ennis was a person who didn't go actively seeking, he waited for things to come to him. Sure, Ennis had acquaintances, but what human being doesn't? He did not live on desert island.He talked enough as was necessary. It's clear he was an introvert, and he was very shy around people until he got to know them. His life took a turn when he met Jack where he met someone he clicked with on such a profound level that Ennis felt comfortable around him so that he laughed and talked and behaved like more of an extrovert. However, this behavior was only reserved for Jack. Around everyone else, Ennis just wanted to be left alone. It was a combination of him being shy and introverted and him simply wanting to be left alone. Whatever acquaintance he had with this Don Wroe guy (who might have been one of his bosses), it wasn't some friendship where they hang out together.

As for being acquainted with Monroe, well it was the only grocery store in their area, and Ennis probably went there to buy things often. Of course he would have made a bit of small talk with Monroe at some point. It doesn't mean he was actually friends with him. They were just acquainted, as any grocery store clerk/manager would be acquainted with frequent, local customers. I would describe myself as an introvert, but I make small talk with a few people who work at the grocery store I go to a few times a week. They see me so often, that it was bound they talk to me at some point. As for Ennis having a fiancee...does it ever occur that the reason Jack was not engaged to a woman is because he did not want to be? Jack had a better understanding of who he was. He knew he was attracted to men, and he certainly did not try to kid himself about that fact. It makes sense why Jack, who was more open about his orientation, would not be engaged to a woman.

Even afterwards, when he goes to Texas, he tries to hit it off with a man (Jimbo), until Lureen comes onto him, and he sees it as a good opportunity because her family had money, and he wasn't able to make a living rodeoing, and probably did not want to return home to his father (who saw him as a loser). It makes sense that Ennis would be the one to get engaged at a young age. His sister got married and left for another town. So did his brother. He probably had attended church socials with his siblings, and hence he met Alma, a nice church-going girl. "That's the most I've talked in a year." Shows how he barely knew Alma or talked to her...clearly he'd known her for some months before his Brokeback summer, but clearly he was just doing what is expected of him when he got engaged to her. As for Cassie, well I thought the film made it obvious that she was the one who snagged him. He clearly didn't want to be bothered by her, but she came on so strong, and Ennis just really wasn't such an assertive person (I know he's assertive around Alma and such, but so much of what he showed outwardly was just a facade). It's clear to me that Cassie saw Ennis, had been wanting him for a while, and went up and got him.  (Cassie is basically the female Jack). When he wanted her to leave him alone, he hides from her and ignores her, rather than just telling her outright that he does not want to see her anymore. Plus, I find the reason he agreed to her advances in the first place was to try and prove to himself, once again, in yet another futile attempt, that he "was no queer". There was also the timing. Cassie came along some months after the Thanksgiving outing by Alma, this is the time that the rumors about Ennis would have been flying around Riverton, hence Ennis outright telling Jack that he felt that people around town knew about him.

That's not what an assertive person would do. Throughout the story and film, Ennis is shown as the introvert, shy, quiet, withdrawn, with only Jack having the key to unlock him. I would describe him as an isolated loner, and I also feel that he did not mind it. He was content with a few close relationships in his life (Jack, of course, and later his daughter Alma Junior, and perhaps Jack's mother). That's typical introvert right there. They have very close relationships with very few people, not a bunch of casual relationships with many people. I would also say that Ennis being so shy and introverted had a lot to do with his upbringing, the society/culture he lived in, how his father treated him, and his reaction to it. Jack grew up in the same type of culture, and also had an abusive father, but reacted differently, instead of closing himself off to the rest of the world like Ennis did. I would also say that Ennis is the completely opposite of self-confident.

 He was an extremely insecure person, in so many ways. His angry outbursts demonstrate that. I think the best examples of this is how Ennis reacted to Alma when she outed him, or anytime he felt people knew the truth about him, versus how Jack reacted. Ennis reacted like he had something to prove, like it got to him on such a deep level, because deep down he knew what he was, and yet he lived in denial. Jack reacted in a way that showed that he was a very secure person and did not care what the hell anyone thinks. Ennis's exterior was all a facade, Jack did not build a facade to hide behind. He showed himself to the world and didn't care what people thought about it. Ennis was always trying to prove to himself that what he deeply knew about himself wasn't true, while Jack embraced it.

The irony of "you can't fix, you gotta stand it"...is that Ennis was the one always trying to fix himself because he believed something to be wrong within himself, as society had taught him. Jack never tried to fix himself, he knew he wasn't broken, he knew who he was and he was comfortable with it. This radiated in all aspects of their personality. Ennis was never comfortable in his own skin, till after his discovery of the two shirts, then he begins on his road to understanding and accepting himself. Jack was always comfortable, just was ostracized by society because of who he was. Now this Ennis being an introvert is not a bad or inferior thing, in fact, it was part of what attracted Jack to Ennis, there is nothing wrong with being an introvert, and nothing wrong with not wanting to have a bunch of friends. But the thing with Ennis is that he was also insecure, only around Jack was not he not insecure, and even then, there were times when he was, such as how he spent all those years doubting what Jack really felt for him, at the end getting angry when he learned of Jack's infidelity, feeling that he might be nothing more than a notch on Jack's belt.

Of course, he was wrong, Jack truly cherished and loved him and wanted only him, but the self-doubting Ennis couldn't see that fact until the two shirts proved it to him once and for all. They were two halves of one soul, or two souls with a perfect fit. They complemented each other perfectly, and Ennis was one of the few people in life to not alienate Jack. (The only other person to accept Jack was his own mother). I don't agree at all that Jack had "little substance".Both Jack and Ennis were not what society expected them to be, or wanted them to be. Hence their souls found each other, regardless that they weren't actively seeking a companion. (Well Jack was) Both Jack and Ennis had lots of substance, they were just different, two different personalities, who melded perfectly and completed each other, they were exactly what the other needed, and there would be something missing in their life if they never met, or at least if they never met people exactly like each other.
« Last Edit: Oct 09, 2014, 02:35 PM by bluemountainsky »
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Offline jackster

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #14 on: Oct 10, 2014, 02:26 AM »
A few assumptions here that seem hard to follow, one that jumps out at me (for no particular reason) is that Riverton has (or had) only one grocery store? Don’t remember seeing that in either the SS or screenplay. As one who has spent some time in Riverton WY it sure had more than one in 2006 when the population was just over 9,000. In the late 60s and 70s the pop was around 8,000, doesn’t seem that it would have been too different then. Annie certainly tries to imply it is a small town, but if she wanted it to be a “one store town” seems she’d have made it clear and/or used a mythical place name like Signal, not a locale with a known history. This isn’t to say the reasoning might not be OK, just wanted to set the record straight about what we know and don’t know from the short story and the subsequent screenplay. A lot is left open to personal interpretation and imagination that, to me, is what makes BBM so artful.

BTW and completely OT - recently saw that Riverton WY has adopted a city slogan, as many small towns have, and they have even put it on their new brick entry sign-
RIVERTON
The Rendezvous City

I will need to do a little research to find out how and why this phrase was selected, but it seems hard to imagine it was just coincidental. Now I’m not sayin’ they have a picture of Ennis an’ Jack kissin’ on their letterhead, but it seems pretty close to the mark.

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Offline bluemountainsky

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #15 on: Oct 10, 2014, 01:44 PM »
Hmm...I don't understand. What assumptions have I made? I'm just going by what the film showed and the way the characters were written. I think it did a pretty good job of showing them as differing personalities (Jack outgoing, Ennis shy) but similar in some ways (bad childhoods, poverty), it's very complex what makes two people click...but they had just the right backgrounds and attributes to combine for that perfect "click". I don't feel that it's something that happens quite often, no? Hence how it should be treasured when it does. Also, I didn't say that Riverton only had one grocery store. I know it was a small, but size-able town, hence Alma was so eager to move there, it's clear she wanted to be living in an area with a bigger population, where the houses weren't miles apart.

 I simply said that it was most likely the only one in their area, hence it makes sense that Ennis would go there often and be acquainted with Monroe. For example I live in a city of over one million people, but I usually go to the same two grocery stores, because they are the closest to my house, and there is no point in driving the extra miles to go other ones in different areas unless the ones in my area don't have something I'm looking for. I also tend to see the same customers there frequently, customers that must live in that same area/neighborhood and so frequent that particular store over others in the city, even stores that are only five miles away. That is what I meant to say, is that cities and towns, big and small, have areas, and it's likely that Monroe's was the one in the area Alma and Ennis were living. As for the Rendezvous City, I had no idea about that. I could very well imagine it has something to do with the movie. It's one of those things that maybe only a few people would actually get the meaning/reference behind it.
« Last Edit: Oct 10, 2014, 02:11 PM by bluemountainsky »
"I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert
But I can live and breathe and see the sun in wintertime;
In a big country, dreams stay with you
Like a lover's voice fires the mountainside."

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #16 on: Oct 12, 2014, 11:23 PM »
Hey, thanks, Jackster. You are always a great source of information. Please come back and let us know about the source of the rendezvous city, you hear.  :^^) :c)

BMS, I don't dispute Ennis being introvert and content to be alone. You missed my point. I was refuting the statement that Ennis did not have any friends. You can define friendship however you like but I'd say someone willing to lend his cabin to you is more than an acquaintance. I agree that Caasie is the one who did the pursuing, and in another thread you will find the comparison between Cassie and Jack. They are very much alike in many ways. Cassie is the closest feminine version of Jack that Ennis could find. We don't know if Ennis did not give off signals to attract Cassie, just as he did with Jack. What is the phrase for that other thread? Surreptitious glances?

We don't know the reason for Jack's lack of fiancée and certainly not for lack of trying. Jack could be quite the charmer when he wanted to be, as he did with Lureen. We also know he rode more than bulls on the rodeo circuit. Again, the issue is not Jack being a social outcast, but rather, neither was Ennis. His wedding ceremony was not just an empty church. Then again, we don't who were on the groom's side and who for the bride. In any case, my point is simply that Ennis is DIFFERENT from Jack, not socially crippled. He reminds me of Dick Proenneke who was self-reliant, self-confident, and content to be alone, but also had long abiding deep meaningful friendships.

 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke

Jack was like the social butterfly, jumping from flower to flower, tasting various nectar, riding more than bull.
Ennis was the faithful loyal puppy, attaching himself to one and never let go.

Give me Ennis any day. You are welcome to Jack, charm and all.  :P
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline bluemountainsky

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Re: Did Jack and Ennis have friends?
« Reply #17 on: Oct 13, 2014, 05:04 PM »
I never said either one of them was socially inept. Neither one of them ever struck me as that at all. I just disagree with what you're saying about Ennis being confident. I just don't believe he was. I think he was an insecure person who needed a lot of reassurance from Jack. This has nothing to do with Ennis's competence, but rather with his personality. Obviously, Ennis was a lot more competent when it came to things like work than Jack was. But when it came to emotions, to affairs of the heart, to communicating those emotions, Jack was the more competent one in that regard. Also, I didn't say that Ennis didn't have friends because he was incapable of any sort of socialization.

 Almost every single human being is capable of socialization, it's just that some people tend to be more outgoing, others are quieter and prefer to keep to themselves. This does not mean they are socially inept, and as we see they are very capable of socializing with certain people, as obviously Ennis socialized with Jack on the very deepest level possible. What I meant to say is that Ennis, like introverts tend to do, actually liked being alone. He valued his solitude and simply didn't like surrounding himself with people. I can understand that. Introverts could make friends if they wanted to, but usually they just don't. They prefer to only socialize with only a few people, and are content spending their time alone without any company. Ennis just didn't initiate any kind of relationship with people.

This of course had a lot to do with the fact that he was shy, but it also had to do with how he wanted to be left alone. If people came up to him, or talked to him then he would decide if he wanted to be better acquainted with them or he wanted to just mumble a few words of small talk than walk away and retreat into himself again. This does not mean that Ennis didn't want deep relationships with a few people...on the contrary in classic introvert fashion, that's exactly what he was like. The few relationships he did have were indeed very deep and meaningful. Ennis was a great father, a lovely son, and a wonderful romantic partner. The story does a good job of showing that. His relationship with Junior, the obvious rapport with Jack's mother, and of course, the main thing in the story, his true love, faithfulness, and devotion to Jack.

 We don't know the extent of his friendship Don Wroe, but yes I would call it an acquaintance. This is because my definition of friendship is probably very different from most people's. Most people that would probably be called friends by other people or by whatever society's definition of friendship is, I would call mere acquaintances. I've known people who would have been willing to lend things to me and vice versa, but I wouldn't call them friends, just acquaintances. I guess the word friendship just carries a certain weight in my mind, hence I'm very hesitant to call a relationship an actual friendship, and I use the word "friend" to refer to people very sparingly. Now when it came to Ennis, He just preferred to be alone like introverts do. Now of course, when it came to Jack, Ennis was a different story. He actually enjoyed being around Jack, because Jack was an exception. Usually, Ennis just preferred to keep to himself.

About Jack, obviously he was a very outgoing person. But it's obvious that the way people treated him in Childress, including Lureen and her family caused him to feel isolated. So it would be a valid inference to say that Jack didn't have many friends in Texas till Randall came along. Randall was friendly to him, whereas it seemed most people in that town weren't. Also what I meant when I talked about how Ennis had a fiancee and Jack didn't, I said it to make a point that it doesn't mean that Ennis got engaged because he was more socially adept than Jack. While we don't know the reason why Jack didn't have a fiance, I think it's a valid inference to say that Jack simply didn't want one.

It would make sense that Ennis, who strived to do what was expected of him, would quickly find a wife after his siblings got married. While it makes sense that the free-spirited Jack wouldn't get engaged at age 19, regardless of what he knew or didn't know about his orientation (though I think he understood and accepted it to a far better degree than Ennis). Jack personality was like a charming rogue, he was a free-spirited dreamer. Yes, I think I think I'm far more in love with Jack. Ennis is the one I see myself in, Jack is the one I want to be like. I don't think Jack had any less devotion or loyalty to Ennis, he just had a different personality. If Ennis had accepted his proposal or ridden off with him in '63, Jack would have never gone looking elsewhere, he would have been faithful to Ennis for life, so powerful and true their love was, and no one knew that more than Jack. There's no doubt in my mind where Jack's heart truly lay...just like the shirts proved to Ennis after all those years.
"I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert
But I can live and breathe and see the sun in wintertime;
In a big country, dreams stay with you
Like a lover's voice fires the mountainside."