Topic: What was it about Ennis?

[myprivatejack]

First of all,excuse me,manhattangirl,for having stolen your topic,but for me this new has more meaning than ask ourselves why people felt attracted to Jack(it´s only my own opinion, don´t misunderstand me,please).We have Jack,Alma and Cassie loving Ennis;in the first case, only death could destroy this love.Alma also loved him during years (because I really think for her reaction when she confesses she know he has a male lover that she was still in love),beyond the routine and the easiness of having a man by your side.And Cassie felt attracted to him inmediately-a good-looking ,lonely,perhaps a little misterious guy...-,but fell for enough to think in a life by his side.The three of them loved,wanted and needed him,everyone of them in their own way,why?.

[manhattangirl]

Believe me, I take no offense.  Alma indeed had Ennis first, she loved him, wanted to marry him, and have his kids.  Preparing to have a traditional life with him.   Did he love her?  I mean really loved, and wanted her?   I have my doubts, marrying Alma was something that made sense, to live a life like everyone else. 

The key  answer to me, is that he was a virgin when he met Jack.  I really don't think it was propriety, or any religious belief, that kept him if not being sexual if not with Alma, but with any other woman.  Why was this?  And why with Jack did his guard come down and admit to him that he hadn't experience sex, why with Jack did he have the need to be closer to him than any one else in his life so far?  And then give himself to Jack, or take Jack that first night in the tent?  

To me Jack was able reach Ennis in a way no else could, and Ennis was face for the first time a part of himself, he didn't know existed. 

Cassie was drawn to Ennis he was alone, attractive to her and she went for it,  how could she know who he really was.  By this time Ennis belonged to Jack, completely she didn't have a chance. 

Ennis had the ability to keep his feeling in check, but not for long because sooner or later, in one way or another, you'll  find out Ennis may see you, but not really, Jack was with him every waking minute in his mind and his heart, and there was no room for anyone else.

IMO.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks,manhattangirl.I also have my doubts about a REAL love from Ennis to Alma,after all is what people expected from him to do...If he hasn´t got sex with any other woman,not even a "professional"as it was usual in 1963,perhaps was because something inside him didn´t drive him to really feel like women;the same "something "that made him confess Jack he has not previous sexual experience(well,at this moment I think that Ennis was already inciting or,at least,flirting with Jack).
Perhaps he had inside some hidden tendences that he didn´t arrive to understand and less admit,and that he didn´t either several years after,for Jack´s disgrace.Of course,his friend knew how to come this tendences out from him, as well as a greater dosis of self-confidence,sociability(?,at least with him)and other feelings that,as you say,he didn´t know existed.Hence his falling in love for Jack.

[tpe]

Thanks,manhattangirl.I also have my doubts about a REAL love from Ennis to Alma,after all is what people expected from him to do...If he hasn´t got sex with any other woman,not even a "professional"as it was usual in 1963,perhaps was because something inside him didn´t drive him to really feel like women;the same "something "that made him confess Jack he has not previous sexual experience(well,at this moment I think that Ennis was already inciting or,at least,flirting with Jack).
Perhaps he had inside some hidden tendences that he didn´t arrive to understand and less admit,and that he didn´t either several years after,for Jack´s disgrace.Of course,his friend knew how to come this tendences out from him, as well as a greater dosis of self-confidence,sociability(?,at least with him)and other feelings that,as you say,he didn´t know existed.Hence his falling in love for Jack.

This is the thing about Ennis: he really didn't know himself.  It was through Jack that he started realizing who he was.  This is Ennis's strength as well as weakness: he was still at a point of embarkation, rather than that of termination.  I think this was part of what attracted Jack to him.  Ennis gave Jack a sense of adventure -- of an untouched wilderness waiting to be discovered by those brave enough to venture into it.

[jackster]

. . . Ennis gave Jack a sense of adventure -- of an untouched wilderness waiting to be discovered by those brave enough to venture into it.

I think this is pretty close to it tpe. I might say WILDNESS instead of wilderness, but it's almost the same. Ennis to me is a lot like the animals he so much loves to be around. Horses and untamed creatures as well (maybe even coyotes). Independent, willing (sometimes even likes) to be around other humans, but its not necessary. Sly, cautious and wary of others (though humans call it paranoid) wondering what they're up too, not real comfortable in their presence except for the one or two that he really loves and wants to become a mate with. I think Ledger was really able to display this animal characteristic with incredible deftness so you barely realize it but it's there underlying Ennis's speech, his movements, facial expressions and thoughts. It comes across to me as being incredibly vital and full of strength, but with this wonderfully soft inner human core we see when he cries. A really powerful, and attractive, mixture to men and women. Just my HO.

[tpe]

I think this is pretty close to it tpe. I might say WILDNESS instead of wilderness, but it's almost the same. Ennis to me is a lot like the animals he so much loves to be around. Horses and untamed creatures as well (maybe even coyotes). Independent, willing (sometimes even likes) to be around other humans, but its not necessary. Sly, cautious and wary of others (though humans call it paranoid) wondering what they're up too, not real comfortable in their presence except for the one or two that he really loves and wants to become a mate with. I think Ledger was really able to display this animal characteristic with incredible deftness so you barely realize it but it's there underlying Ennis's speech, his movements, facial expressions and thoughts. It comes across to me as being incredibly vital and full of strength, but with this wonderfully soft inner human core we see when he cries. A really powerful mixture. Just my HO.

Yes, he does remind you of a wild horse that needs to be broken, no?  This is why I had thought that Jack's mare on BBM was a symbol for Ennis.  Jack wanted to "master" him from the very start.  He was attracted to the wildness, and did not think of it as a deterrent.

[aintfoolin]

Great posts from every one here  on a great topic! Thanks myprivatejack.

Ennis is a very private person which makes him seem mysterious, and quirky. This is evident in the beginning outside Aguirre's trailer. Only peeked at Jack when Jack was'nt looking, could'nt meet his eyes ,though he had to feel Jack's eyes on him. Yes, he is the shy type.

Has a plan to work the summer and save for a home for his  lady and future family. Alma and the girls. I feel he had all good intentions toward her and promised to marry her. It's what men did in those days and in his culture he was a gentleman. She saw him steady and strong. Could grow in love with him.

The fact that Ennis was a virgin also plays into his  common sensible  manner. He was an old-fashioned good  ol country cowboy. Though naive,  He was playing by all the rules. by all the rules including the No Sex Till Marriage Rule with Alma.  Brought up strict and taught not to buck tradition. Then he met Jack.....

This threw Ennis, an unexpected truth Jack was to him. All  was suddenly out of character , whatever this thing was. He tried to fight it, could'nt. Denied it , Could'nt.  Understand it? hell no. Jack had him, heart and soul, imo that's what he knew. Ennis could think it , even act on it but it was so hard to say it He loved Jack Twist.Why? He feared it. Forbidden.

Here is the irony of the whole thing . The key, in my opinion about Ennis is this: He'd been taught that the very thing he  needed the most during his relationship with Jack, is the same thing that was stipped away when  he saw Earl . The freedom to embrace love as he felt it and not suffer for it., concerning his sexuality. To be what he was before he seen it . An innocent kid with freedom of thought.

 He had two very traumatizing experiences as a kid. I. The death of his parents, 2. Earl and Ray. These two instances in his childhood Imo shaped who ,and what Ennis became as an adult. Scared child, scared adult. Did'nt have no therapists or child phycologists diagnosing the damage. He was on his own . When he met and fell in love with Jack, we saw a caring, giving but vulnerable young man. Never known anyone like Jack before. Taught him lots and did'nt hold back. Ennis had great respect for Jack, just as a person I feel.

 It was Jack to whom he chose to reveal the story of Earl and Ray, A very personal thing for Ennis. two gay cowboys who dared to break tradition and live together, but were ostricized in the town and eventually tortured and killed. Well Ennis's dad takes him  and his brother on a a little show and tell outing. I think it goes to the heart of why he would'nt commit.  He wanted Jack to hear what so deeply affects him, and needed so much that little brush on the cheek Jack gave him.  At that moment He saw Jack as being a huge part of his life, he needed him in it.  Aint no  reins on these feelings he'd tried to fight, he knew it. This one relationship with Jack.

 There he sees what happens if you go against the rules. Very bad things will happen to you.  Ennis never forgot that lesson. He'd been thorougly  convinced.   :c)Talk about a ghost under the bed!

I feel this scared him ,and scarred him for life...But he loves Jack...  at 19,  finds himself in love  with another man.  It's passoinate, Really, really likes the feel of  loving him , wants him, and the battle deep inside begins. Sends Jack away in the divorce scene in guilt and shame. Just was'nt ready. Jack did'nt allow the usaul " go off and mull it over" period Ennis seems to need when something effects him deeply. He just showed up.
 Knew he was hurting Jack, but the fear was there as he sent this sweet surprise away. Jack  simply wants him to live with him post-Alma, hence, the fear returns,  Fear for himself and most of all ,for Jack, his  friend,partner, and lover.
 If anything  happened to Jack because of their exposure, Ennis would no doubt feel responsible for it. Due to the tragedies of death he saw as a kid, so comes death to Jack or himself if they live free like Jack wanted. Like Earl and Ray did. Up until the point he found the shirts, love was not enough, afterwards, love was everything 'against anyone.... A tragic lesson learned.
 Was there alternatives to Ennis's thinkng? Certainly , we have our opinions and passions, this is mine.

 

[myprivatejack]

Great post,aintfoolin¡without rejecting all the others,all splendids¡.Yes, I´ve always thought that Ennis fell for Jack because it was irremediable;he had a very rough childhood and this made him to close inside himself.Only Jack was able to made him go out from his taciturnity,at the same time that give him warmth,affection,sex and all what he needed.We all know that all this wasn´t strong enough to beat these incredible fears,almost bordering upon paranoia,but served to have less hidden these tendences we spoke before and that I think was one of the causes he was a virgin until finding Jack(of course,one of the others could be that he always went "when the river flows",doing what was expected to him if he didn t want to be punished as Earl and Ray...).Nevertheless,what I would still like to know is what was the reason that made Jack and Alma be in love with Ennis for so many years.

[myprivatejack]

I have forgotten to say that AP explained that Heath was as she had imagined Ennis personage,so the question of the sexual attraction can be present in same way;but he was not the kind of person who can attract people in a more global sense,for his kindness,his tenderness or his sociability,as happens with Jack contrarily.He was rather the kind who can move people away,this is the truth...
So, letting aside this flirting of the first time they met,that makes us think it was "love at first sight" on the part of Jack,what did he see in Ennis to be in love with him in spite of himself.

[lamusica]

I think it is Ennis's indifference that attracted Alma, Jack and Cassie.  Some people really like it when they are rebuffed, or when they have to work to get someone's attention.  Personally, I think that is due to a lack of self-respect.   1.  Alma is just a little country girl who doesn't know any better.  She sees Ennis as a big, handsome guy, a good ol' country boy who appreciates family since he lost his young, a man who she can grow old with and die with.  She never imagined that he had another love somewhere until she saw the reunion kiss.  Then, she didn't imagine that she could have fought for Ennis and won-- she knew in her heart that she wasn't going to win.  2. Jack loved Ennis, but he had to work to get ENnis to talk to him and to open up to him.  He had to take the initiative in the physical area (FNIT).  Ennis's attention didn't come easily.  If Jack had been more self-assured, he wouldn't have taken ENnis's refusals to live together so easily for so long.  He would have pushed Ennis into some sort of action after the divorce.  But, at heart, Jack wasn't sure Ennis would have chosen him.  3.  Cassie had to ask Ennis to dance, had to ask for a footrub, probably had to initiate sex between them.  When Ennis hid from her, she tried to find him, but eventually gave up.  Again, had she been more self-assured, she would have found ENnis, shown up where he worked, grabbed him by the shirt collar and read him the riot act.  But, here again, Cassie didn't really think she deserved better than she got.
At least, that's how I see it.  (Also, just an aside: I don't believe Ennis was a virgin the FNIT.  Just because he had told Jack he hadn't had the opportunity to be a sinner, doesn't, to me, mean he hadn't had sex before.  I just think regular, male/female sex to a nineteen year old boy wasn't a sin -- did not a sinner make.  It was just natural.  I don't think he would have caught on to Jack's meaning so fast the FNIT if he had been an innocent. Just mho.)

[myprivatejack]

Great post,lamusica¡But tell me: why do you think Jack wasn´t sure Ennis would have choosen him?Do you say it because he wasn´t able to overcome his fears?Or because do you think that Ennis loved Jack,really loved him,but he was not in love with him?It´s only a question.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis life was built around Jack, knowingly or unknowingly.   His protectiveness of Jack, may have look like  like many things.  Ennis needed Jack, and loved him.  But needed in his own way to keep both of them safe. 

When Ennis at the end of the film, put the postcard of Brokeback next to the shirts.  That's was their life, their world, and the only place he knew they were and alway would be safe.   Jack was right when he said all they had was Brokeback, and everything was built on that. 

When it came to Jack Ennis knew exactly how he felt.  Jack  at times didn't understand it.  IMO

[tpe]

I have forgotten to say that AP explained that Heath was as she had imagined Ennis personage,so the question of the sexual attraction can be present in same way;but he was not the kind of person who can attract people in a more global sense,for his kindness,his tenderness or his sociability,as happens with Jack contrarily.He was rather the kind who can move people away,this is the truth...
So, letting aside this flirting of the first time they met,that makes us think it was "love at first sight" on the part of Jack,what did he see in Ennis to be in love with him in spite of himself.

I agree.  For Ennis, it was a love in spite of himself.  He was always a man battling his own psyche.

[tpe]

I think it is Ennis's indifference that attracted Alma, Jack and Cassie.   Some people really like it when they are rebuffed, or when they have to work to get someone's attention.  Personally, I think that is due to a lack of self-respect.   1.  Alma is just a little country girl who doesn't know any better.  She sees Ennis as a big, handsome guy, a good ol' country boy who appreciates family since he lost his young, a man who she can grow old with and die with.  She never imagined that he had another love somewhere until she saw the reunion kiss.  Then, she didn't imagine that she could have fought for Ennis and won-- she knew in her heart that she wasn't going to win.  2. Jack loved Ennis, but he had to work to get ENnis to talk to him and to open up to him.  He had to take the initiative in the physical area (FNIT).  Ennis's attention didn't come easily.  If Jack had been more self-assured, he wouldn't have taken ENnis's refusals to live together so easily for so long.  He would have pushed Ennis into some sort of action after the divorce.  But, at heart, Jack wasn't sure Ennis would have chosen him.  3.  Cassie had to ask Ennis to dance, had to ask for a footrub, probably had to initiate sex between them.  When Ennis hid from her, she tried to find him, but eventually gave up.  Again, had she been more self-assured, she would have found ENnis, shown up where he worked, grabbed him by the shirt collar and read him the riot act.  But, here again, Cassie didn't really think she deserved better than she got.
At least, that's how I see it.  (Also, just an aside: I don't believe Ennis was a virgin the FNIT.  Just because he had told Jack he hadn't had the opportunity to be a sinner, doesn't, to me, mean he hadn't had sex before.  I just think regular, male/female sex to a nineteen year old boy wasn't a sin -- did not a sinner make.  It was just natural.  I don't think he would have caught on to Jack's meaning so fast the FNIT if he had been an innocent. Just mho.)

What an interesting point fo view!  I guess it is also related to the view that they love Ennis for his projection of loneliness -- the need to be loved.  Some people are attracted to people precisely because these people seem to call out to be nurtured. 

[aintfoolin]

I think it is Ennis's indifference that attracted Alma, Jack and Cassie.  Some people really like it when they are rebuffed, or when they have to work to get someone's attention.  Personally, I think that is due to a lack of self-respect.   1.  Alma is just a little country girl who doesn't know any better.  She sees Ennis as a big, handsome guy, a good ol' country boy who appreciates family since he lost his young, a man who she can grow old with and die with.  She never imagined that he had another love somewhere until she saw the reunion kiss.  Then, she didn't imagine that she could have fought for Ennis and won-- she knew in her heart that she wasn't going to win.  2. Jack loved Ennis, but he had to work to get ENnis to talk to him and to open up to him.  He had to take the initiative in the physical area (FNIT).  Ennis's attention didn't come easily.  If Jack had been more self-assured, he wouldn't have taken ENnis's refusals to live together so easily for so long.  He would have pushed Ennis into some sort of action after the divorce.  But, at heart, Jack wasn't sure Ennis would have chosen him.  3.  Cassie had to ask Ennis to dance, had to ask for a footrub, probably had to initiate sex between them.  When Ennis hid from her, she tried to find him, but eventually gave up.  Again, had she been more self-assured, she would have found ENnis, shown up where he worked, grabbed him by the shirt collar and read him the riot act.  But, here again, Cassie didn't really think she deserved better than she got.
At least, that's how I see it.  (Also, just an aside: I don't believe Ennis was a virgin the FNIT.  Just because he had told Jack he hadn't had the opportunity to be a sinner, doesn't, to me, mean he hadn't had sex before.  I just think regular, male/female sex to a nineteen year old boy wasn't a sin -- did not a sinner make.  It was just natural.  I don't think he would have caught on to Jack's meaning so fast the FNIT if he had been an innocent. Just mho.)

 I don't think Ennis was lookin for a relationship with any woman  or man that night, unless that man was Jack Twist, the night when he met Cassie, but Cassie had probably been checkin Ennis out ever since he entered the bar. Ennis had ,not too  long ago went through a divorce from Alma,. Cassie wanted a husband, Ennis was'nt the "marrying kind ", and she was being very sexually  agressive with him from the start. When he got up to leave the bar, she took the opportunity to lead  him onto the dance floor where she was very seductive.  As far as I know she is the first relationship Ennis has since Alma... but by this time Ennis is in love with Jack and knows it. Did'nt want no one else or the drama this relationhip would enventually become though he did "put the blocks" to her at least once.

Maybe it's just me , but footrubs/massages within the first ten minutes of meeting seems very .very bold of her to ask. I mean, it's a very personal thing to ask some one to do . Am I wrong here? She was getting too close for comfort for Ennis so he let her know in  clear terms that it was over. It was cold but effective. Even she , a beautiful, desirable woman could  not come between him and the love he had for Jack. He chose Jack over her as he did Alma in his reasoning.

 About the business of Ennis bein a virgin? I just think Jack found Ennis sexually atractive and v/v Aside from the idea that Ennis was being unbelievably kind-hearted . giving and caring to him on BBM, the  harmonica *teasing *and back and forth banter played off of each other beautifully. Ennis gives of himself to please.  he is orderly and precise   ( who kept the better camp?)  There is a method and compartment  in his mind for the tiniest details with him...to a fault at times. Makes up his mind and sticks to it,  Steady,  Concedes nothing unless Jack is involved, Jack is hungry, he shoots the elk, Jack won't eat one more bean? he goes for soup, Cat piss tent? he did'nt mind. Crooked tent?  "don't look right" fixed it. He aimed to please Jack. uncovered  just enough to make his lovers  want  to uncover more. Also a good lover from the way it's described in the SS. Yum!
 He was an attractive mystery to his lovers and that's sexy!. Most challenging.  To really get to know him takes some digging. Jack had a bulldozer! He knew him best.
I suppose these are the reasons  why they stayed with him,wanted and loved him for so long.

When he stated " You may be a sinner, but I've yet to have the opportunity"  It was'nt just what he said, but the way he said it you understand. The look in his eyes and the forthrightness of his manner when he said it was very telling, preceded by a religious talk in which Jack spoke of " boys like us" marching off to hell. To be *wild and worldly "  Sneaking in girls' windows at night while daddy sleeps with the shotgun type of sh-t, etc. Can't see Ennis doin this ...but Jack?..well he's a little more "open". A little more crazy.  A little more "experienced " .

Boozing it up and chasing potential lovers IMO or engaging in *sinful* actions involving sex of some kind.( in context  to Jack;s pentecostal religion.) had not been experienced by Ennis IMO  Where would he have that opportunity? and when?
 Not saying that he was completely naive about sex, but...  He lived with his siblings , no transportation, got thrown out and hitchhiked to find work. Jack on the other hand had traveled the rodeo circuit and was more knowledgable in the art of ...ahem .. the spices of life. or in somes' veiw "sin".
Confessing his virginity and using * opportunity* in the same sentence  to me says Ennis wanted, FNIT to happen, gave a blatent clue....  but did'nt expect Jack to actually follow through with this. Nor himself.

 Was'nt afraid to show emotion .including crying when something or some one affected him deeply. was handsome, strong , yet gentle and protective. what more could any girl or guy want? Oh yeah ,...a life together with him. Who could blame Jack? Not me. My humble opinions.

[lamusica]

Great post,lamusica¡But tell me: why do you think Jack wasn´t sure Ennis would have choosen him?Do you say it because he wasn´t able to overcome his fears?Or because do you think that Ennis loved Jack,really loved him,but he was not in love with him?It´s only a question.

Oh, no!  I'm sure ENnis loved and was in love with Jack.  It's the fear thing.  Also, that Ennis couldn't admit to himself that he preferred a man over a woman.  I think the fact that Ennis would never consider the two of them living together said to Jack that Enniss wouldn't commit to him in a public way, such as by living with him; therefore, Ennis love was not complete.

[lamusica]

Maybe it's just me , but footrubs/massages within the first ten minutes of meeting seems very .very bold of her to ask. I mean, it's a very personal thing to ask some one to do . Am I wrong here? She was getting too close for comfort for Ennis so he let her know in  clear terms that it was over. It was cold but effective. Even she , a beautiful, desirable woman could  not come between him and the love he had for Jack. He chose Jack over her as he did Alma in his reasoning.

 
 He was an attractive mystery to his lovers and that's sexy!. Most challenging.  To really get to know him takes some digging. Jack had a bulldozer! He knew him best.
I suppose these are the reasons  why they stayed with him,wanted and loved him for so long.


Boozing it up and chasing potential lovers IMO or engaging in *sinful* actions involving sex of some kind.( in context  to Jack;s pentecostal religion.) had not been experienced by Ennis IMO  Where would he have that opportunity? and when?
 

While I agree with most of what you say about Ennis, there are a few things I read differently.  While Cassie is flirtatious and sexy, I don't think Ennis was ready to dump her for awhile.  They must have gone out for a few months.  He didn't decide to quit her until he spent some time with Jack.  Then, when he came back, Cassie just wasn't anything he was interested in at all anymore, so he made himself scarce.  As I said before, I think Cassie gave up too easily if she really wanted him, and I have no doubt she was in love with him.

I think your comment about Ennis being an attractive mystery to his lovers is right on.  That's what I meant by my post.  He wasn't overly demonstrative to anyone.  He left them to do the unpeeling of him.  As you said, Jack was the only one who got to the deepest levels of Ennis.

As far as the virginity goes, Ennis knew Alma.  He had to meet girls somewhere.  I think he and Alma probably fooled around.  I just don't see any real evidence that Ennis was virginal.  (Just my opinion on this.)

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Wow!  Such an insightful thread.  I have to come back with some thoughts.

[manhattangirl]

I don't think Ennis was lookin for a relationship with any woman  or man that night, unless that man was Jack Twist, the night when he met Cassie, but Cassie had probably been checkin Ennis out ever since he entered the bar. Ennis had ,not too  long ago went through a divorce from Alma,. Cassie wanted a husband, Ennis was'nt the "marrying kind ", and she was being very sexually  agressive with him from the start. When he got up to leave the bar, she took the opportunity to lead  him onto the dance floor where she was very seductive.  As far as I know she is the first relationship Ennis has since Alma... but by this time Ennis is in love with Jack and knows it. Did'nt want no one else or the drama this relationhip would enventually become though he did "put the blocks" to her at least once.

Maybe it's just me , but footrubs/massages within the first ten minutes of meeting seems very .very bold of her to ask. I mean, it's a very personal thing to ask some one to do . Am I wrong here? She was getting too close for comfort for Ennis so he let her know in  clear terms that it was over. It was cold but effective. Even she , a beautiful, desirable woman could  not come between him and the love he had for Jack. He chose Jack over her as he did Alma in his reasoning.

 About the business of Ennis bein a virgin? I just think Jack found Ennis sexually atractive and v/v Aside from the idea that Ennis was being unbelievably kind-hearted . giving and caring to him on BBM, the  harmonica *teasing *and back and forth banter played off of each other beautifully. Ennis gives of himself to please.  he is orderly and precise   ( who kept the better camp?)  There is a method and compartment  in his mind for the tiniest details with him...to a fault at times. Makes up his mind and sticks to it,  Steady,  Concedes nothing unless Jack is involved, Jack is hungry, he shoots the elk, Jack won't eat one more bean? he goes for soup, Cat piss tent? he did'nt mind. Crooked tent?  "don't look right" fixed it. He aimed to please Jack. uncovered  just enough to make his lovers want to uncover more. Also a good lover from the way it's described in the SS. Yum!
 He was an attractive mystery to his lovers and that's sexy!. Most challenging. to really get to know him takes some digging. Jack had a bulldozer! He knew him best.
I suppose these are the reasons  why they stayed with him,wanted and loved him for so long.

When he stated " You may be a sinner, but I've yet to have the opportunity"  It was'nt just what he said, but the way he said it you understand. The look in his eyes and the forthrightness of his manner when he said it was very telling, preceded by a religious talk in which Jack spoke of " boys like us" marching off to hell. To be *wild and worldly "  Sneaking in girls' windows at night while daddy sleeps with the shotgun type of sh-t, etc. Can't see Ennis doin this ...but Jack?..well he's a little more "open". A little more crazy.  A little more "experienced " .

Boozing it up and chasing potential lovers IMO or engaging in *sinful* actions involving sex of some kind.( in context  to Jack;s pentecostal religion.) had not been experienced by Ennis IMO  Where would he have that opportunity? and when?
 Not saying that he was completely naive about sex, but...  He lived with his siblings , no transportation, got thrown out and hitchhiked to find work. Jack on the other hand had traveled the rodeo circuit and was more knowledgable in the art of ...ahem .. the spices of life. or in somes' veiw "sin".
Confessing his virginity and using * opportunity* in the same sentence  to me says Ennis wanted, FNIT to happen, gave a blatent clue....  but did'nt expect Jack to actually follow through with this. Nor himself.

 Was'nt afraid to show emotion .including crying when something or some one affected him deeply. was handsome, strong , yet gentle and protective. what more could any girl or guy want? Oh yeah ,...a life together with him. Who could blame Jack? Not me. My humble opinions.

As always fun to read, and beautifully put. 

I do agree with you on his virginity, but this is my take on it.  Ennis was not a person given into passion, sex was part of  marriage, and to have children going along with his conventional view of life.  And let's face it Alma was no Cassie.  But aside from that was this he true-self, really, did his true sexual self lay dormant?   So virginity is not totally out of the question.   

Until he meets Jack.  Jack was someone he drawn to.  And all that aintfoolin points out, is the beginning and completing of that mental intimacy that the two develops.   When the physical intimacy happens, with the shock, confusions, pain, pleasure we all experience our first time, and what we seek out again the next time.

Ennis goes back to Jack, and discover this who he wants, what sex is,  what making love is, it's with another man, who turned him on, turned him out, with no going back, and this where the trouble starts for him, because it is not suppose to be this way, so he marries Alma.  But four years later, he rediscovers what love, sex, and the need for both is.  He's not letting go, but can't totally commit to it.  Gees, I hope this make sense. 

 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

One thing is for certain....after reading these posts, I understand more why I am drawn towards Ennis.

[myprivatejack]

One thing is for certain....after reading these posts, I understand more why I am drawn towards Ennis.

Well,I really don´t know if I´m drawn towards Ennis or not,but the certain is that I´m more Jack still...But the certain also is that we´ve been speaking about his self-isolation,his difficulty to make his feelings manifest,a closed,taciturn guy.Now I´m going to speak in favour of him:don´t forget that we see Jack showing his feelings in a constant,almost lineal way,we know he is in love and that´s enough.But the most demonstrative,almost untimely reactions come on his side:he´s who shows his feelings for the separation in Brokeback more then Jack does,he´s who cries in the alley,who takes the iniciative in the kiss reunion

[myprivatejack]

(Sorry,my PC has boycotted me;it doesn´t like Ennis,as it seems...).I said that his eyes were full with tears in the motel scene when Jack asks him:"whay about you?",who shows a mixture of fear and irritation when Alma discovers he knew who was Jack(because he fears she can say something about this situation,but also he seem to deffend his lover for being attacked for who never had get such a great level of his love).In sum,we see in the movie a lot of situations in which Ennis shell is broken into thousand pieces and he shows himself vulnerable and almost defenceless,and not only in SNT when he surrenders by love to Jack.Somebody said he´s the "bad boy" of the movie,but I don´t think so(although I must confess I felt a great antipathy for him after my first seeing).

[lamusica]

Well,I really don´t know if I´m drawn towards Ennis or not,but the certain is that I´m more Jack still...But the certain also is that we´ve been speaking about his self-isolation,his difficulty to make his feelings manifest,a closed,taciturn guy.Now I´m going to speak in favour of him:don´t forget that we see Jack showing his feelings in a constant,almost lineal way,we know he is in love and that´s enough.But the most demonstrative,almost untimely reactions come on his side:he´s who shows his feelings for the separation in Brokeback more then Jack does,he´s who cries in the alley,who takes the iniciative in the kiss reunion

You're right about Ennis's heart, I think.  He had deep emotions inside, and, from time to time, they showed  (with the shirts in Jack's room, with the shirts in his trailor, puking near the shed, etc.)  But Jack, too, cries when Ennis rebuffs him when he drove to see Ennis after his divorce, when he went on to Mexico, and the look on his fce when Ennis walked away from his truck after they came down from BBM.  Ijust thinnk both of these guys were hungry for love.  Ennis was not aperson who would ask for anything from anyone, so he certainly didn't know how to ask for love.  Jack, on the other hand, knew he would get nothing without asking for it, so he was braver. more out-reaching.

[welshwitch]

My feeling is that Ennis, with his love of convention, at least outwardly, had a sort of feeling he'd be less conspicuous, for want of a better word, if married and when Cassie made such a beeline for him it removed from him the necessity of having to do anything active - he could just respond. As soon as her plans for the future and attitude towrds him became more  threatening to him, he panicked and ditched her - from what she says without any explanation. Ennis IMO was playing with the idea of marriage again but when confronted by the reality couldn't bring himself to do it.

He drifted into an engagement with Alma, I think because his sister and brother had married, he was on his own, and getting married was what you did. I've never thought him in love with Alma - the honeymoon/snow-scene is just a brief holiday interlude before the responsibilities of a wife and soon a family start to weigh him down. Even in the early stages of their marriage he seems to be merely going through the motions but underneath there's no deep passion - sexual desire maybe.

For Jack I think Ennis is at first no more than an unknown quantity and a possible friend and audience - then he starts to see him  in a more rounded way. Isolation and being thrown into constant proximity is important too - but in the end he is just Jack's other half, the piece that fits like two halves of a torn piece of paper.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

....For Jack I think Ennis is at first no more than an unknown quantity and a possible friend and audience - then he starts to see him  in a more rounded way. Isolation and being thrown into constant proximity is important too - but in the end he is just Jack's other half, the piece that fits like two halves of a torn piece of paper.

Great post welshwitch!

[lamusica]

Great post welshwitch!

Ditto to CSC re WW's post.

[aintfoolin]

 Sometimes I wonder if Ennis was truly ever attracted to women. or tried to understand them. The two women Cassie and Alma were two very different people, and Ennis treated both shabbily. Ennis did'nt have a clue how to make them happy and wanted.   Was Ennis really , truly capable of loving a woman? Jack outlasted both of them in Ennis's heart. What does this say about Ennis's sexuality.Cassie stated that her friend " even talks" So much for Ennis's courting rituals!  Alma seemed tied down and lonley most of the time. His *courting * of Jack on BBM was much more focused than either of   the women. How telling is that?...Just a thought.

[manhattangirl]

Sometimes I wonder if Ennis was truly ever attracted to women. or tried to understand them. The two women Cassie and Alma were two very different people, and Ennis treated both shabbily. Ennis didn't have a clue how to make them happy and wanted.   Was Ennis really , truly capable of loving a woman? Jack outlasted both of them in Ennis's heart. What does this say about Ennis's sexuality.Cassie stated that her friend " even talks" So much for Ennis's courting rituals!  Alma seemed tied down and lonely most of the time. His *courting * of Jack on BBM was much more focused than either of  the women. How telling is that?...Just a thought.

This has been my thought for a while.  Was Ennis ever really attractive to women at all?   We understood why he married Alma, and what destroy that marriage.  Cassie showed us a total disconnect Ennis had with woman, he had no interest whatsoever, in pursing her after his return from Brokeback the last time, and really couldn't understand how she felt.  His total mental and emotional state was devoted to Jack, his love was always Jack's, his sexual need and desires were Jack's and Jack's alone. 

I would even take a step further.  Jack could be more bisexual.  Jack's need was not only sexual but also emotional, I could see him developing a strong attachment and love for a woman, if she understood Jack and his needs.  And could live contently in relationship built on love and trust.   Jack was much more open with his feelings and his desires and never counted out a different type of relationship. 

Am I wrong in this assessment?

[tpe]

Sometimes I wonder if Ennis was truly ever attracted to women. or tried to understand them. The two women Cassie and Alma were two very different people, and Ennis treated both shabbily. Ennis did'nt have a clue how to make them happy and wanted.   Was Ennis really , truly capable of loving a woman? Jack outlasted both of them in Ennis's heart. What does this say about Ennis's sexuality.Cassie stated that her friend " even talks" So much for Ennis's courting rituals!  Alma seemed tied down and lonley most of the time. His *courting * of Jack on BBM was much more focused than either of   the women. How telling is that?...Just a thought.

Good question.  One can also ask the same thing about his daughters -- it would seem that he loved them, but was sometimes constrained to limit that love within certain bounds, as in the case when Alma Jr. wanted to move in with him.

But as to Alma and Cassie, one wonders whether Ennis really loved them.  Alma, perhaps, duirng the start of the marriage -- Ennis might have thought of himslef as being in love. 

But even if he wasn't really in love, it is Ennis's ability to show quiet affection that probably made Alma and Cassie think that it was love.  I do think that in the case of Alma, there was affection -- at least during the early years of their marriage. 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

....But even if he wasn't really in love, it is Ennis's ability to show quiet affection that probably made Alma and Cassie think that it was love.  I do think that in the case of Alma, there was affection -- at least during the early years of their marriage. 

This makes sense to me.  Ennis and Alma had already planned to be married before Ennis and Jack met. As quiet as Ennis was about his emotions, I believe that he felt something...affection perhaps...for Alma.  Considering what I understand about that time period and area culture, I can see why Alma fell in love with Ennis. I would even go so far to say that Ennis's outward personality was not unique for that area. Alma probably saw Ennis as a normal guy who wanted to marry and make a life with her.  Had Alma not seen that reunion kiss, it might have been years before she began to wonder what (or who) truly held Ennis's heart.