Author Topic: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers  (Read 20005 times)

romeshvr

  • Guest
Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers
« on: Feb 06, 2006, 08:48 AM »
I always wondered why Jack never divorced Lureen before.  I mean Ennis was divorced and living by himself and if Jack really wanted to he could have moved to Riverton and lived by himself after spliting with Lureen to be close to Ennis.  What hold did Lureen have over Jack or to that matter why was he clinging to her?  Was it money? Their son or was it Jack waiting for a perfect opportunity to move back to his parents ranch with a man, be it Ennis or Randall or whom ever... If this was the case how much of a risk taker was Jack anyways...
« Last Edit: Feb 06, 2006, 09:45 AM by tpe »

Offline scruffy

  • Scruff Nasty
  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen
« Reply #1 on: Feb 06, 2006, 09:12 AM »
That's a really good question.  My guess is Jack had it good with Lureen.  He had money, a social life and was able to live the lie without much trouble.  I have no doubt that Lureen did have feelings for Jack even if the marriage was cold.  It was the best Jack had at the time but I have a feeling that Jack would have left Lureen in an instant if only Ennis agreed to live with him.

Offline Cowboy Cody

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 7886
  • Gender: Male
  • Here I IS!
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen
« Reply #2 on: Feb 06, 2006, 09:42 AM »
Had Jack not been turned away by Ennis when he drove 14 F*ing hours to see him, I think he would of. He only wanted to hear it from Ennis, that Ennis wanted that as well, but Ennis couldn't and Jack knew he couldn't apply the pressure to make it so.
You were goin' up there to go fishin'....NO SHIT! GIMME SEX!

Offline jimmypage

  • Lureen
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
  • Gender: Female
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen
« Reply #3 on: Feb 06, 2006, 09:49 AM »
I think Jack wants and needs a sign from Ennis to do everything...
he always accepts the decisions of Ennis , never concretely trying to change them
That scene after Ennis divorce ennerves me...I wouldn't have  gone away so passively...
years after years the situation becomes more and more static,  heavy, hopeless
and hard to change

Maybe Jack is really as his ***ç@ father says: most of jack's ideas come and pass
« Last Edit: Feb 06, 2006, 09:51 AM by jimmypage »

Offline rane99

  • Lureen
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen
« Reply #4 on: Feb 06, 2006, 07:17 PM »
I think Jack wants and needs a sign from Ennis to do everything...
he always accepts the decisions of Ennis , never concretely trying to change them
That scene after Ennis divorce ennerves me...I wouldn't have  gone away so passively...
years after years the situation becomes more and more static,  heavy, hopeless
and hard to change

Maybe Jack is really as his ***ç@ father says: most of jack's ideas come and pass

I agree, Jack left without getting even a commitment for next month. See here is where Jack could have used Alma's help.  Remember when Alma was trying to talk Ennis into getting that place over the laudrymat? She was using her sexual wiles.  Kissing his neck, whispering in his ear, stroking his back, in short, promising him good luvin' if they could move. She laid the trap. Boom. She got what she wanted.  Now if Jack had used a little more sweet talking and made promises of carnal delights right at the verge where Ennis, shall we say, would agree to almost anything, methinks he could have gotten Ennis to do anything.  Mostly 'cause Ennis was in love with the boy.  Just a thought!
So's long as the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring

Offline camom

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen
« Reply #5 on: Feb 06, 2006, 07:24 PM »
Had Jack not been turned away by Ennis when he drove 14 F*ing hours to see him, I think he would of. He only wanted to hear it from Ennis, that Ennis wanted that as well, but Ennis couldn't and Jack knew he couldn't apply the pressure to make it so.

And the look on Jack's face, walking into that alley in Mexico...heartbreaking.  Like at that moment he just knew he was never going to get what he truly wanted.

camom

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #6 on: Feb 06, 2006, 07:44 PM »
Friends, looks like we are all off topic here.

Sorry,

I had to say it.  :-X
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

romeshvr

  • Guest
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen
« Reply #7 on: Feb 06, 2006, 07:45 PM »
I think Jack wants and needs a sign from Ennis to do everything...
he always accepts the decisions of Ennis , never concretely trying to change them
That scene after Ennis divorce ennerves me...I wouldn't have  gone away so passively...
years after years the situation becomes more and more static,  heavy, hopeless
and hard to change

Maybe Jack is really as his ***ç@ father says: most of jack's ideas come and pass

I agree, Jack left without getting even a commitment for next month. See here is where Jack could have used Alma's help.  Remember when Alma was trying to talk Ennis into getting that place over the laudrymat? She was using her sexual wiles.  Kissing his neck, whispering in his ear, stroking his back, in short, promising him good luvin' if they could move. She laid the trap. Boom. She got what she wanted.  Now if Jack had used a little more sweet talking and made promises of carnal delights right at the verge where Ennis, shall we say, would agree to almost anything, methinks he could have gotten Ennis to do anything.  Mostly 'cause Ennis was in love with the boy.  Just a thought!

Thank you for writing this... The first post on this board that made me laugh not in a bad way but in a good way....  You are ture... Wasn't Jack supposed be the more exprienced one... Din't Annie write somewhere that Jack rode more than bulls... Hey if a woman can do it why not JACK!!!! Where the heck are you MAN!!!

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #8 on: Feb 06, 2006, 07:55 PM »
Mhhh!  :-X

See my previous post please
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

tweric

  • Guest
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #9 on: Feb 06, 2006, 08:17 PM »
Hm... It takes two to tangle, so, for Lureen, she later shits all her attentions to "crunching in numbers" that she just doesn't have time to think about kicking Jack out of her life. For Jack, it's convenience and everything, but later he just "can hardly stand it" and is killed before he divorces her...  My two cents...

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #10 on: Feb 06, 2006, 08:20 PM »
Hm... It takes two to tangle, so, for Lureen, she later shits all her attentions to "crunching in numbers" that she just doesn't have time to think about kicking Jack out of her life. For Jack, it's convenience and everything, but later he just "can hardly stand it" and is killed before he divorces her...  My two cents...

Thanks for posting tweric, I agree with you.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline rikcub

  • Lureen
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #11 on: Feb 06, 2006, 08:47 PM »
Hm... It takes two to tangle, so, for Lureen, she later shifts all her attentions to "crunching in numbers" that she just doesn't have time to think about kicking Jack out of her life. For Jack, it's convenience and everything, but later he just "can hardly stand it" and is killed before he divorces her...  My two cents...

I would have to agree...however I do think that earlier on Jack would have left in a heartbeat if he had any concrete evidence from Ennis that he could commit too.

Offline Uptown_Gal

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 22
  • Gender: Female
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #12 on: Feb 06, 2006, 08:54 PM »
It's the money, honey.  Jack would've divorced Lureen in a flash - for Ennis.  However, because Ennis wouldn't and couldn't commit to him, Jack had no reason to give up his comfortable lifestyle w. Lureen.  For what?  He apparently enjoyed some of the creature comforts.  Have you seen their house?  Notice the paunch he develops as he gets older.  Ennis once remarked that "Jack's not the restaurant type."  I doubt that was the case after he married Lureen.  Notice his late model trucks.  Notice his fashionable clothes, like his L.L. Bean, quilted, down parka in their last scene together (I recognize it from the catalog)..  Contrast that w. Ennis's faded clothes, beat-up truck and shabby trailer.     

Jake stayed w. Lureen the way some wives stay w. their abusive husbands.  Economics.  If Ennis wouldn't commit to him, where would Jack go and what would he do if he left Lureen?  For one, he'd be out of his lucrative sales position.

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #13 on: Feb 06, 2006, 08:58 PM »
It's the money, honey.  Jack would've divorced Lureen in a flash - for Ennis.  However, because Ennis wouldn't and couldn't commit to him, Jack had no reason to give up his comfortable lifestyle w. Lureen.  For what?  He apparently enjoyed some of the creature comforts.  Have you seen their house?  Notice the paunch he develops as he gets older.  Ennis once remarked that "Jack's not the restaurant type."  I doubt that was the case after he married Lureen.  Notice his late model trucks.  Notice his fashionable clothes, like his L.L. Bean, quilted, down parka in their last scene together (I recognize it from the catalog)..  Contrast that w. Ennis's faded clothes, beat-up truck and shabby trailer.     

Jake stayed w. Lureen the way some wives stay w. their abusive husbands.  Economics.  If Ennis wouldn't commit to him, where would Jack go and what would he do if he left Lureen?  For one, he'd be out of his lucrative sales position.

Ditto,

I so totaly so agree with you!  Excellent analysis  BTW

Thanks for posting Uptown_Gal

Mouah  :-*

Pierre
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

romeshvr

  • Guest
Re: Why did not Jack Divorce Lureen - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #14 on: Feb 06, 2006, 09:55 PM »
good observation uptown_gal... i didn't pick up on that L. L. Bean parka... always thought that parka looked way too big for him...and kind of out of place...almost that parka was too heavy for him...

Offline jesseanne21

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 3233
  • Gender: Female
  • Never enough time, never enough
Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #15 on: Aug 30, 2006, 03:58 PM »
There are several threads regarding Jack's marriage to Lureen (why they stayed married so long, why they didn't get divorced)  and also questioning whether Lureen ever really loved Jack. 

My question is why did they get married in the first place.  I always thought that Jack married Lureen for security (her money).  However, Patriot1 made a good argument that Jack married her because she got pregnant (deliberately).

Quote
  When she met Jack she knew her dad would not like Jack. He was just a poor bull rider that wasn't very good a bull riding. Just not the type of guy her dad would like.  She wanted to get back at her dad so she goes after Jack, getting him interested in her, the pretty and rich young girl. She then gets Jack into the back of her daddy's car, another thing against her dad, and intends to get pregnant so she will have to marry him.  She sees that Jack is interested in her and tells her "fast or slow I like the direction your going", intercourse.

She gets pregnant, marries Jack, and makes her father angry.  Mission accomplished. She then becomes involved in the business and turns all her attention to it figuring if Jack didn't like it he could divorce her. Unknown to her, though, this was fine with Jack and a friendly relationship develops. You do your thing and I'll do mine. Just don't let your thing interfear with the business.

What's your opinion?

Also, church wedding?  Shotgun wedding?  Elopement?
[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #16 on: Aug 30, 2006, 04:21 PM »


I suspect that Jack entered into the marriage a bit more willingly.  I find it difficult to imagine L.D. wanting Jack to be his son-in-law, but perhaps he was moved by a concern for his daughter's pregnancy.  In the end, I think L.D. acquiesed because Lureen probably wanted Jack badly enough.  Jack probably did not have very stong objections -- Lureen was security and stability for him.  Perhaps he wanted to sublimate his past and try to forget -- like Ennis.






Offline Patriot1

  • BBM. What could possibly top it?
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 2527
  • Gender: Male
  • In loving memory of Matthew Shepard 1976 - 1998
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #17 on: Aug 30, 2006, 04:31 PM »
There are several threads regarding Jack's marriage to Lureen (why they stayed married so long, why they didn't get divorced)  and also questioning whether Lureen ever really loved Jack. 

My question is why did they get married in the first place.  I always thought that Jack married Lureen for security (her money).  However, Patriot1 made a good argument that Jack married her because she got pregnant (deliberately).

Quote from: Patriot1
  When she met Jack she knew her dad would not like Jack. He was just a poor bull rider that wasn't very good a bull riding. Just not the type of guy her dad would like.  She wanted to get back at her dad so she goes after Jack, getting him interested in her, the pretty and rich young girl. She then gets Jack into the back of her daddy's car, another thing against her dad, and intends to get pregnant so she will have to marry him.  She sees that Jack is interested in her and tells her "fast or slow I like the direction your going", intercourse.

She gets pregnant, marries Jack, and makes her father angry.  Mission accomplished. She then becomes involved in the business and turns all her attention to it figuring if Jack didn't like it he could divorce her. Unknown to her, though, this was fine with Jack and a friendly relationship develops. You do your thing and I'll do mine. Just don't let your thing interfear with the business.

What's your opinion?

Also, church wedding?  Shotgun wedding?  Elopement?


I think we have to remember that Lureen got pregnant because BOTH of them wanted it. Luren so she would have to marry Jack and anger her father, and Jack because he wanted that comfortable life.

You also forgot a civil wedding.  I don't think it was a shotgun wedding because Jack wanted it as much as she did. As for any other kind of wedding there is absolutely no way to tell.


Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #18 on: Aug 30, 2006, 05:43 PM »
I'm not convinced she wa pregnant before they were married. Jackleaves Ennis in July 1963, goes to Lightning Flat for the winter, spends the next year or so rodeoing after being turned down by Aguirre in the summer of '64 - meets Lureen while he's rodeoing. It's only the screen play that gives this meeting as in '66. When he meets Ennis again it's the summer of '67 ( four years after BBM) and Bobby is 8 months old; if this is June he was born in October '66, and logically, unless premature, conceived in January '66.Don;t know if Jack would have been rodeoing in the moddle of winter - seems unlikely. 

It seems more probable to me that Lureen simply decided she wantd him and married him with LD's grudging agreement.

Offline Patriot1

  • BBM. What could possibly top it?
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 2527
  • Gender: Male
  • In loving memory of Matthew Shepard 1976 - 1998
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #19 on: Aug 30, 2006, 10:20 PM »
I'm not convinced she wa pregnant before they were married. Jackleaves Ennis in July 1963, goes to Lightning Flat for the winter, spends the next year or so rodeoing after being turned down by Aguirre in the summer of '64 - meets Lureen while he's rodeoing. It's only the screen play that gives this meeting as in '66. When he meets Ennis again it's the summer of '67 ( four years after BBM) and Bobby is 8 months old; if this is June he was born in October '66, and logically, unless premature, conceived in January '66.Don;t know if Jack would have been rodeoing in the moddle of winter - seems unlikely. 

It seems more probable to me that Lureen simply decided she wantd him and married him with LD's grudging agreement.


Bobby was conceived in April of 1966 (summer when rodeoing was in full swing), was born January of 1967 and was 8 months old when Jack reunited with Ennis in September of 1967.
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #20 on: Aug 30, 2006, 10:25 PM »
Quote
when Jack reunited with Ennis in September of 1967.

If you don't mind, as per the movie, the poste card sent to Ennis about the reunion mentions a reunion on June 24th 1967 so Bobby being 8 months old was borned in October of 1966 so he was conceived in December of 1965 or January of 1966, no?
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline Patriot1

  • BBM. What could possibly top it?
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 2527
  • Gender: Male
  • In loving memory of Matthew Shepard 1976 - 1998
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #21 on: Aug 30, 2006, 10:34 PM »

Quote
when Jack reunited with Ennis in September of 1967.

If you don't mind, as per the movie, the poste card sent to Ennis about the reunion mentions a reunion on June 24th 1967 so Bobby being 8 months old was borned in October of 1966 so he was conceived in December of 1965 or January of 1966, no?


Guess you saw a different movie than the one I keep seeing.  The one I see the postcard says Jack was coming through on the 24th and is postmarked in September 1967.  There is nothing about June at all.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #22 on: Aug 30, 2006, 10:38 PM »
You're right,  I was checking my screencaps and I was just about to post the same picture  ;)

There are some addicted Brokies on this forum  ???
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline Patriot1

  • BBM. What could possibly top it?
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 2527
  • Gender: Male
  • In loving memory of Matthew Shepard 1976 - 1998
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #23 on: Aug 30, 2006, 10:58 PM »
There are some addicted Brokies on this forum  ???


You have no idea Chameau. Heck, I'd even bet Bobby was conceived between 8:30pm and 11:30pm.

In May it doesn't get that dark until 8:30pm and 9:00pm and Lureen had to be home by midnight.

 ;D
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline chameau

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 28148
  • Gender: Male
  • Miss ya little darlin'
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #24 on: Aug 30, 2006, 11:16 PM »
There are some addicted Brokies on this forum  ???


You have no idea Chameau. Heck, I'd even bet Bobby was conceived between 8:30pm and 11:30pm.

In May it doesn't get that dark until 8:30pm and 9:00pm and Lureen had to be home by midnight.

 ;D

 ;D

You beat me on that one  O0
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline jesseanne21

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 3233
  • Gender: Female
  • Never enough time, never enough
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #25 on: Aug 31, 2006, 11:23 AM »
There are some addicted Brokies on this forum  ???


You have no idea Chameau. Heck, I'd even bet Bobby was conceived between 8:30pm and 11:30pm.

In May it doesn't get that dark until 8:30pm and 9:00pm and Lureen had to be home by midnight.

 ;D

 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8
[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline Patriot1

  • BBM. What could possibly top it?
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 2527
  • Gender: Male
  • In loving memory of Matthew Shepard 1976 - 1998
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #26 on: Aug 31, 2006, 12:08 PM »
There are some addicted Brokies on this forum  ???


You have no idea Chameau. Heck, I'd even bet Bobby was conceived between 8:30pm and 11:30pm.

In May it doesn't get that dark until 8:30pm and 9:00pm and Lureen had to be home by midnight.

 ;D

 ;D

You beat me on that one  O0


And furthermore, I think I'd even bet it was on a Saturday or a Sunday.   ;)



Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #27 on: Aug 31, 2006, 01:42 PM »
I was going by the ss, which gives the date of Jack's first postacard as four years after BBM, ie 1967, and in june, saying he'd be through on 24th. I follow the chronology of the ss because that of the film is contradictory and internally inconsistent - try working oput Bobby's age at different points as related to the dates in the screenplay. Tghe writeres confused the whole question of timing by these apparently random dates and by trying to fill in what Annie Proulx left unstated.

It's also rather like the inconsistent times in Shakespeare's plays - when you see them on stage you don't notice but if you read ( and re-read and re-read) them, what wasn't obvious in the theater becomes so under close scrutiny. We weren't meant to read into the screen-play dates anything like the significance we're giving them, IMO.


Offline Patriot1

  • BBM. What could possibly top it?
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 2527
  • Gender: Male
  • In loving memory of Matthew Shepard 1976 - 1998
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #28 on: Aug 31, 2006, 10:11 PM »
I was going by the ss, which gives the date of Jack's first postacard as four years after BBM, ie 1967, and in june, saying he'd be through on 24th. I follow the chronology of the ss because that of the film is contradictory and internally inconsistent - try working oput Bobby's age at different points as related to the dates in the screenplay. Tghe writeres confused the whole question of timing by these apparently random dates and by trying to fill in what Annie Proulx left unstated.


Ok. We are here discussing a movie. So, using the movie, lets see if we can come up with some dates.

We know Jack and Ennis reunited in September of 1967 from the post card.
We know Bobby was 8 month old when then reunion too place.
That means Bobby was born in January of 1967.
If you allow for a full term pregnancy, that would mean he was conceived in May of 1966.

All that comes from the movie which we are discussing. Don't need the SS or Screenplay at all.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline welshwitch

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 6480
  • Gender: Female
Re: Why Did Jack Marry Lureen - Was Lureen Pregnant?
« Reply #29 on: Sep 01, 2006, 09:37 AM »
I do.