Author Topic: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler  (Read 26188 times)

Offline tpe

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The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« on: Feb 07, 2006, 05:16 PM »
There is one part of the movie that seems to show Ennis in the worst possible light possible: Jack drives 14 hours after hearing about the divorce, and he is so humiliatingly turned away by Ennis.

Could not have Ennis accomodated Jack somehow?  He could have at least invited him to stay put until after the weekend with the girls.  Ennis perfectly knew that Jack had misunderstood the whole situation.  Shouldn't he have shown more compassion and accomodation?!?!

Your thoughts.

Offline Toadily

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #1 on: Feb 07, 2006, 05:20 PM »
There is one part of the movie that seems to show Ennis in the worst possible light possible: Jack drives 14 hours after hearing about the divorce, and he is so humiliatingly turned away by Ennis.

Could not have Ennis accomodated Jack somehow?  He could have at least invited him to stay put until after the weekend with the girls.  Ennis perfectly knew that Jack had misunderstood the whole situation.  Shouldn't he have shown more compassion and accomodation?!?!

Your thoughts.

I totally agree, he should have been nicer.  I can't imagine doing that to a friend.  And Jack would very normally try to move on with his life after that.
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Offline tpe

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #2 on: Feb 07, 2006, 05:23 PM »
I totally agree, he should have been nicer.  I can't imagine doing that to a friend.  And Jack would very normally try to move on with his life after that.

It nearly kills me watching the scene where Jack cries silently in his truck as he drives to Mexico.  Ennis can be so brutal...

Offline Toadily

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #3 on: Feb 07, 2006, 05:24 PM »
Yeah I wouldn't treat a dog that way!  Well obviously Ennis new the er's of his way cause he
seemed more humble when his daughters wedding plans came up.  And the hell he must live with knowing how he hurt Jack too.
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Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #4 on: Feb 07, 2006, 05:30 PM »
I wish Jack would have verbalized to Ennis right before he jumped in the truck, "I LOVE YOU DAMNIT", Ennis would  of cracked. Ennis almost had to be goaded by Jack into giving back at times. How could you do that to someone who cares for you, that was an awful moment.
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Offline manila_rocks

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #5 on: Feb 07, 2006, 05:44 PM »
Ennis is not being intentionally brutal.  Ennis is being driven by a complex, subconscious process with which he is not in touch. 

Ennis has limited "observing ego".

Offline Kindred

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #6 on: Feb 07, 2006, 05:44 PM »
Cruel, yes.  But can you imagine Ennis really doing anything else?  He is never comfortable about his relationship with Jack when others are around.  His reaction is to always run away with Jack, or in this case, get Jack away.

Offline camom

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #7 on: Feb 07, 2006, 06:15 PM »
Ennis is not being intentionally brutal.  Ennis is being driven by a complex, subconscious process with which he is not in touch. 

Ennis has limited "observing ego".

Yes, exactly.  Ennis is cruel, true, but watch the scene carefully and you can see the fear in him.  His terror of being found out overshadows everything.  Jack sees it, but he can't comprehend it in the way that Ennis feels it.

camom

JerBear418720

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #8 on: Feb 07, 2006, 06:43 PM »
In his own way, Jack is cruel too.  He keeps bludgeoning Ennis over the head with a dream that just cannot be realized.  It tears Ennis to shreds.  Jack gave so much energy over to insisting on having it all rather than accepting the situation for what is was.  Most people live and die without ever having experienced love like that - better to accept 2 magnificent weeks a year rather than risk destroying something so precious.

No, I'm not a harda**, just a pragmatist.

JB  :-\

Offline camom

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #9 on: Feb 07, 2006, 07:03 PM »
In his own way, Jack is cruel too.  He keeps bludgeoning Ennis over the head with a dream that just cannot be realized.  It tears Ennis to shreds.  Jack gave so much energy over to insisting on having it all rather than accepting the situation for what is was.  Most people live and die without ever having experienced love like that - better to accept 2 magnificent weeks a year rather than risk destroying something so precious.

No, I'm not a harda**, just a pragmatist.

JB  :-\

That's a great point.  After twenty years, Jack must have realized that Ennis was Ennis, take it or leave it, yet he still pushed.  It's vey possible that the same scene had played out more than once over the years, and the short story seems to point that out--"...for what they'd said was no news.  Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."  Jack pushed, Ennis stood his ground, and still they stayed together.  I think after that scene, though, Jack did accept the situation for what it was.  I don't think he'd have walked away--I don't think he could-- but he was trying to find a satisfactory solution for himself.

camom   

Offline Toadily

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #10 on: Feb 07, 2006, 07:09 PM »
Yes, very good point.  But I do still feel Ennis could have been nicer than just blowing him off like that.
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Offline kcristob

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #11 on: Feb 07, 2006, 07:11 PM »
Ennis was not exactly the wordy type, right?  So he's kind of mumbly and he does say "jack, I don't know what to say."  You can read the misery on Ennis' face.  But, that's who ennis IS!  And he is very very clear that he is NOT going to be with Jack in the way Jack wants him to.  I don't see Ennis handling it any other way, and that's what his stance always was.  What a heartbreaker.

JerBear418720

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #12 on: Feb 07, 2006, 07:24 PM »
Ennis was not exactly the wordy type, right?  So he's kind of mumbly and he does say "jack, I don't know what to say."  You can read the misery on Ennis' face.  But, that's who ennis IS!  And he is very very clear that he is NOT going to be with Jack in the way Jack wants him to.  I don't see Ennis handling it any other way, and that's what his stance always was.  What a heartbreaker.

Yes, and Jack should have known to stop torturing Ennis so!  He was what he was.  You can't change people.  Dunno, I think that if this had been a real-life couple, they would have split up.  Despite the amazingly powerful love, they were SO good at making one another miserable.  On a practical level, Ennis would not have been happy with a dreamer on a day-to-day basis.  They always leave the practical parts of life to others - exactly as Jack did to Lureen.

Sorry, I think my past is percolating to the surface......

JB    :( 

Offline camom

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #13 on: Feb 07, 2006, 07:40 PM »
Ennis was not exactly the wordy type, right?  So he's kind of mumbly and he does say "jack, I don't know what to say."  You can read the misery on Ennis' face.  But, that's who ennis IS!  And he is very very clear that he is NOT going to be with Jack in the way Jack wants him to.  I don't see Ennis handling it any other way, and that's what his stance always was.  What a heartbreaker.

Exactly!  Don't forget, Jack misread the communication about the divorce.  I really doubt Ennis wrote and said, "Divorce is final, come on down."  Jack is a dreamer and read his own conclusions into it.  Ennis really wasn't any different than any other time.  It would've been wonderful if things could happen the way Jack wanted them to, but the tragedy of the story is that they just couldn't.  The dance goes on, but it remains the same.

camom

Offline jakeofrome

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #14 on: Feb 07, 2006, 07:41 PM »
Jack gave so much energy over to insisting on having it all rather than accepting the situation for what is was.  Most people live and die without ever having experienced love like that - better to accept 2 magnificent weeks a year rather than risk destroying something so precious.

I do have lots of simphaty for Jack actually. I think he can deal with the "2 magnificient weeks a year" only because of his love for Enni AND because his hope for "having it all" never stops.
I would not call "insisting". We look at it with the eues of people living in 2006 - I don't think they would have many chances themselves back then.
The fact that Jack misunderstands the meaning of Ennis' message about the divorce is something that touches me a lot - been there, done there a lot of times so I completely understand how he feels.
We also learn later on that those you call "magnificent weeks" are called "couple of hiigh altitude f+cks twice a year" so it's bit exactly heaven what we are talking about.
What keeps Ennis and Jack together is stronger than life - but their actual life is not that good - no matter if they are together or separate.
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Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #15 on: Feb 07, 2006, 07:47 PM »
Jack gave so much energy over to insisting on having it all rather than accepting the situation for what is was.  Most people live and die without ever having experienced love like that - better to accept 2 magnificent weeks a year rather than risk destroying something so precious.

I do have lots of simphaty for Jack actually. I think he can deal with the "2 magnificient weeks a year" only because of his love for Enni AND because his hope for "having it all" never stops.
I would not call "insisting". We look at it with the eues of people living in 2006 - I don't think they would have many chances themselves back then.
The fact that Jack misunderstands the meaning of Ennis' message about the divorce is something that touches me a lot - been there, done there a lot of times so I completely understand how he feels.
We also learn later on that those you call "magnificent weeks" are called "couple of hiigh altitude f+cks twice a year" so it's bit exactly heaven what we are talking about.
What keeps Ennis and Jack together is stronger than life - but their actual life is not that good - no matter if they are together or separate.

How true, Ennis was poor and miserable, Jack was well off and miserable. and together they were volatile, pushing the envelope with the other, playing off the other, never seeming to just let be, let be.
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Offline camom

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #16 on: Feb 07, 2006, 07:57 PM »
They are both sympathetic characters, both miserable, both trapped by circumstances--but isn't that the whole point of the story?  It's all about their inability to resolve their relationship--one way or the other--within the framework of the homophobic sociey they live in.  If they come to a conclusion, the story loses its impact.

camom

Offline The Ultimate Otaku

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #17 on: Feb 07, 2006, 07:57 PM »
Ennis was not exactly the wordy type, right?  So he's kind of mumbly and he does say "jack, I don't know what to say."  You can read the misery on Ennis' face.  It IS who Ennis is!  And he is very very clear that he is NOT going to be with Jack in the way Jack wants him to.  I don't see Ennis handling it any other way, and that's what his stance always was.  What a heartbreaker.

Heartbreaker? He was brought up scared of the consequences of anyone ever knowing he's gay, so to have Jack showing up and Jack talking about them living together makes Ennis afraid. His fear overpowers him so much that he can't even embrace the man he loves and instead pushes him away, hides him in a corner, keeps him out of sight of others, and tries not to think of how it could be, always, of how it could have been.

The fear just kills him, you can see the pain in Ennis' eyes...Jack is heartbroken because he doesn't understand that fear,he's willing to stand up to anything if it'll get him what he wants, but Ennis just doesn't have that, can't think like that. Thus, the argument, and Jack saying "I wish I knew how to quit you!"

It's the whole "goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation," as Jack says, that is utterly heartbreaking. Not, in my opinion, Ennis in particular.
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Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #18 on: Feb 07, 2006, 08:07 PM »
Ennis played it safe because of the fear and is left alone, one unsatisfactory B**** of a situation and Jack stood up for what he wanted and ended up dead, another unsatisfactory B**** of a situation. Makes me want to scream at the world for instilling in people those kinds of fears that repress our ability to love outwardly, and cower at the notion that we have to conform to society.
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Offline flikker2005

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #19 on: Feb 07, 2006, 09:09 PM »
I do not think of Ennis as a cruel man.  Yes, he is often too fearful to allow Jack the very thing that would bring both of them the most joy in life. And Yes, his action or non-action are like a dagger in Jack's heart.

But, in the end, Ennis has the heavier burden to carry.

Jack is released from suffering with one violent act (accident or murder, whichever you believe).

Ennis lives - alone. He has only his regret for company.

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Offline scruffy

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #20 on: Feb 07, 2006, 09:42 PM »
Ennis wasn't a cruel man.  He was just caught up in things he simply couldn't comprehend.  Pretty much everyone that truly loved him ended up in tears -- Alma, Jack and Cassie.  He didn't even understand that he was cheating on his wife since Jack wasn't a woman.  He even goes as far as suggesting that he was "once burned" by Alma when she eventually found love with the shop keeper.

Offline rikcub

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #21 on: Feb 07, 2006, 09:57 PM »
There is one part of the movie that seems to show Ennis in the worst possible light possible: Jack drives 14 hours after hearing about the divorce, and he is so humiliatingly turned away by Ennis.

Could not have Ennis accomodated Jack somehow?  He could have at least invited him to stay put until after the weekend with the girls.  Ennis perfectly knew that Jack had misunderstood the whole situation.  Shouldn't he have shown more compassion and accomodation?!?!

Your thoughts.

Unfortunately he just was not able to do that...remember these guys (especially Ennis) are scarred from what is in their past.  Ennis was scared to death of being found out...and his daughters were just a few feet away.  Ennis bowed to societal norms and expectations...that was how he survived even though it meant keeping Jack (and true love) at arms length.  Only in the end does he realize his true loss...but along the way he only did the best he could do.

JerBear418720

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #22 on: Feb 07, 2006, 10:06 PM »
Jack gave so much energy over to insisting on having it all rather than accepting the situation for what is was.  Most people live and die without ever having experienced love like that - better to accept 2 magnificent weeks a year rather than risk destroying something so precious.

I do have lots of simphaty for Jack actually. I think he can deal with the "2 magnificient weeks a year" only because of his love for Enni AND because his hope for "having it all" never stops.
I would not call "insisting". We look at it with the eues of people living in 2006 - I don't think they would have many chances themselves back then.
The fact that Jack misunderstands the meaning of Ennis' message about the divorce is something that touches me a lot - been there, done there a lot of times so I completely understand how he feels.
We also learn later on that those you call "magnificent weeks" are called "couple of hiigh altitude f+cks twice a year" so it's bit exactly heaven what we are talking about.
What keeps Ennis and Jack together is stronger than life - but their actual life is not that good - no matter if they are together or separate.

How true, Ennis was poor and miserable, Jack was well off and miserable. and together they were volatile, pushing the envelope with the other, playing off the other, never seeming to just let be, let be.

Dragging the misery of their everyday lives into their relationship was a reality I hadn't considered, yeah.  I think I'm reacting to the death in January of a str8 friend who was a dreamer and never got his life together on any level.  The collateral damage inflicted on me (his best friend), his girlfriend, his ex-wife, his daughter, his father and his 3 sisters was HUGE.  Amazing how BBM always ricochets right back into ur face because of things that have happened in your own life.

 :'( 

Offline francis.shim

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #23 on: Feb 07, 2006, 10:20 PM »
I was thinking that, in fact, when we see Ennis *ACTING* as if he is being cruel to Jack by turning him away in front of the girls, I don't think that is really Ennis.  That was homophobia.

The way I am trying to see the picture is that Jack and Ennis *IN TRUTH* love each other and that that is the real Jack and Ennis... the way that both of them want to be; however, it is because of homophobia and fears that have been driven into their consciousness that Ennis behaves the way he does... and in response, because Jack understands it, Jack defers to this homopobia.  It makes me realize just how pervasive and insiduous that homophobia can become... it disguises itself within the individuals as pieces of the self so it easy to believe that it is the individual that is acting.

I cannot think that Ennis would be intentionally cruel to his one true love, Jack... and I cannot think that Jack would be intentionally cruel to his one true love, Ennis... so the *cruelty* that appears has to be as a result of homophobia.

Peace,
Frank

Offline camom

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #24 on: Feb 08, 2006, 12:36 AM »
Reading all these posts made me realize something.  Early on in the movie (the summer on Brokeback, plus the reunion trip), Brokeback (wilderness) is the only place where Ennis and Jack can be themselves and be completely free.  Later, after time has passed, we see society encroaching on their happiness more and more--their bickering, Jack talking about investments and taxes.  It's as though their safe haven, Brokeback, is slowly being eroded away and the outside world is constantly pounding on the door.  Their love for each other is under constant assault--no wonder that at times they're hurtful to each other.  It's always safest to lash out at the ones we love the most.

I agree that Ennis has the heavier burden.  He's not only lost the man he loves, but he has to live with the knowledge that he denied  both himself and Jack great joy, and for what?  Jack's dead--all that denial didn't prevent the one thing that Ennis feared most.

Waaaaaaaaah.   :'(         

Offline manila_rocks

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #25 on: Feb 08, 2006, 02:32 AM »
I think the burdens of these two main characters are almost equal.   I cannot assign a greater amount of burdenship to either.

Jack is obsessed to a fault and emotions not so repressed.  He even talks (and cries).

Ennis is angry and depressed but not in touch with his emotions.    Again, a lack of ability to access an observing ego on his part.

Offline francis.shim

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #26 on: Feb 08, 2006, 09:53 AM »
Reading all these posts made me realize something.  Early on in the movie (the summer on Brokeback, plus the reunion trip), Brokeback (wilderness) is the only place where Ennis and Jack can be themselves and be completely free.  Later, after time has passed, we see society encroaching on their happiness more and more--their bickering, Jack talking about investments and taxes.  It's as though their safe haven, Brokeback, is slowly being eroded away and the outside world is constantly pounding on the door.  Their love for each other is under constant assault--no wonder that at times they're hurtful to each other.  It's always safest to lash out at the ones we love the most.

I agree that Ennis has the heavier burden.  He's not only lost the man he loves, but he has to live with the knowledge that he denied  both himself and Jack great joy, and for what?  Jack's dead--all that denial didn't prevent the one thing that Ennis feared most.

Waaaaaaaaah.   :'(         

Let's share some hankies.  :'(

Yes... "Brokeback Mountain" was the only small enclave that we could see just Jack and Ennis, free from society's expectations, unburdened from the demands of gender roles, shelterd from the storms of judgement and unshackled from the chains of societal norms.  It was just them and the spiritual closeness to nature.  It was dreamy and beautiful.  Neither of them were cruel to each other... they worked as one, a couple in love.

Ennis being burdened more... I think it is a result of him simply surviving Jack's death... what if Ennis had died would Jack feel any less burdened... would he not suffer from guilt after saying "I wish I knew how to quit you", only to realize that he got an answer to that wish... I am not sure.  I think a lot of what Ennis has, is survivor's guilt... however, at least he has an untouchable redemption: he *KNOWS* that Jack really loved him and that he loves Jack.  He is afforded the beauty of the "shirts" and "Brokeback Mountain".

Peace,
Frank

Offline camom

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #27 on: Feb 08, 2006, 10:06 AM »
Reading all these posts made me realize something.  Early on in the movie (the summer on Brokeback, plus the reunion trip), Brokeback (wilderness) is the only place where Ennis and Jack can be themselves and be completely free.  Later, after time has passed, we see society encroaching on their happiness more and more--their bickering, Jack talking about investments and taxes.  It's as though their safe haven, Brokeback, is slowly being eroded away and the outside world is constantly pounding on the door.  Their love for each other is under constant assault--no wonder that at times they're hurtful to each other.  It's always safest to lash out at the ones we love the most.

I agree that Ennis has the heavier burden.  He's not only lost the man he loves, but he has to live with the knowledge that he denied  both himself and Jack great joy, and for what?  Jack's dead--all that denial didn't prevent the one thing that Ennis feared most.

Waaaaaaaaah.   :'(         

Let's share some hankies.  :'(

Yes... "Brokeback Mountain" was the only small enclave that we could see just Jack and Ennis, free from society's expectations, unburdened from the demands of gender roles, shelterd from the storms of judgement and unshackled from the chains of societal norms.  It was just them and the spiritual closeness to nature.  It was dreamy and beautiful.  Neither of them were cruel to each other... they worked as one, a couple in love.

Ennis being burdened more... I think it is a result of him simply surviving Jack's death... what if Ennis had died would Jack feel any less burdened... would he not suffer from guilt after saying "I wish I knew how to quit you", only to realize that he got an answer to that wish... I am not sure.  I think a lot of what Ennis has, is survivor's guilt... however, at least he has an untouchable redemption: he *KNOWS* that Jack really loved him and that he loves Jack.  He is afforded the beauty of the "shirts" and "Brokeback Mountain".

Peace,
Frank


"Survivor's guilt" is a good way to put it, or survivor's remorse.  Jack would have been the same way--he said his share of hurtful things too, and we see that in the last scene.  If you watch Ennis' face while Jack is having his tirade (and Ennis is a bit out of focus and off to the side), you can see each word slamming into him, and last viewing I thought I saw tears falling just before he said the "It's because of you, Jack,..." line.  We don't know what was said between that time and when Ennis left, but can you imagine having to replay that scene in your head for the rest of your life? 

camom

Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #28 on: Feb 08, 2006, 10:15 AM »
Brokeback (wilderness) is the only place where Ennis and Jack can be themselves and be completely free....society encroaching on their happiness...the outside world is constantly pounding on the door...It's always safest to lash out at the ones we love the most.

He's not only lost the man he loves, but he has to live with the knowledge that he denied  both himself and Jack great joy, and for what?  Jack's dead--all that denial didn't prevent the one thing that Ennis feared most.

Waaaaaaaaah.   :'(         

camom - one of the best and saddest posts i've ever read, now im here cryin' at work :'( :'( :'( :'(
You were goin' up there to go fishin'....NO SHIT! GIMME SEX!

Offline jimmypage

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Re: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler
« Reply #29 on: Feb 08, 2006, 11:17 AM »
For me Ennis is not cruel....he's never cruel
but he's totally paralyzed  by fear and deeply suffering.
Morover, during this scene, seeing the delusion and the pain on Jack's face,
 Ennis says "Jack " a couple of times... I think he  means, in his elliptic language:
 "I'm so sorry Jack, can you understand me? Forgive me"