Author Topic: Jack, a player??? No.  (Read 18510 times)

Offline LisaM

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Jack, a player??? No.
« on: Feb 16, 2006, 01:55 PM »
I have had a discussion with my cousin about Jack.  In her opinion jack was just a player becasue of the Mexico scene and she feels he was doing every body.  But my feeling is that he was trying to fill the need of not having Enis in his life and he was just lonely.  Any thoughts?

aimi15

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #1 on: Feb 16, 2006, 03:03 PM »
Hi IMO Jack DID find other ways of fulfilling the needs Ennis couldn't always provide-but Ennis was the only one he took mementoes from and kept for 20 years, for me this speaks volumes-the boy was in love xx :'(

Offline bram

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #2 on: Feb 16, 2006, 06:03 PM »
I agree. Ennis didn't need a lot of company, but Jack wasn't like that. He was obviously in love with Ennis, though.
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Offline CherryCake

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #3 on: Feb 16, 2006, 06:05 PM »
Jack was more experienced, yes. Was he a playa? no.  If he was, he would not have stuck around for 20 years, driving all all those miles. 
If you look closely in the Mexico scene, he doesn't look too happy.
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JerBear418720

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #4 on: Feb 16, 2006, 08:31 PM »
I think Jack's infidelity with other men adds balance - makes him seem just as flawed as Ennis, but in a different way.  Also, it gives them equal stockpiles of unwanted ammunition.  The reality of Jack with other men has just as much power to hurt as Ennis' refusal of the "sweet life".

Without balance, one cowboy wears the while hat and the other the black.  In BBM, nobody was the bad guy - both were just so excruciatingly sad.

JB  :(

romeshvr

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #5 on: Feb 16, 2006, 08:42 PM »
I think Jack's infidelity with other men adds balance - makes him seem just as flawed as Ennis, but in a different way.  Also, it gives them equal stockpiles of unwanted ammunition.  The reality of Jack with other men has just as much power to hurt as Ennis' refusal of the "sweet life".
Without balance, one cowboy wears the while hat and the other the black.  In BBM, nobody was the bad guy - both were just so excruciatingly sad.
JB  :(
Thanks JerBear.  You said it perfectly.  Despit each others flaw, they loved each other intensely.  They knew each others flaws but overlooked it and loved each other.  That is the best kind of love.  If both were perfect, this story would not be so captivating.

Offline rikcub

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #6 on: Feb 16, 2006, 09:18 PM »
I have had a discussion with my cousin about Jack.  In her opinion jack was just a player becasue of the Mexico scene and she feels he was doing every body.  But my feeling is that he was trying to fill the need of not having Enis in his life and he was just lonely.  Any thoughts?

Ennis was his true and first love....I really think he would have been stable and monogamous if Ennis could have been there for him.  Jack wasn't playing around or messing around...he had a big lonely hole in his heart....and the human need for connection that he was trying to fulfill.  Also, the trip to Mexico came only after he was turned away by Ennis after learning about the divorce.  I think that was probably a turning point for Jack...on some level be began to let go of his dream of life with Ennis.  :'(  :'(  :'(

Offline brian2006

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #7 on: Feb 16, 2006, 09:39 PM »
Jack is not a player, for sure!

He alwayz want a peaceful life with Ennis, but somehow Ennis can't accept two guys stay together... ...

He try to let Ennis go, but finally he found that his love for Ennis is so strong that he can't juz give it away!!

Offline jacktwist

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #8 on: Feb 17, 2006, 06:37 PM »
I have had a discussion with my cousin about Jack.  In her opinion jack was just a player becasue of the Mexico scene and she feels he was doing every body.  But my feeling is that he was trying to fill the need of not having Enis in his life and he was just lonely.  Any thoughts?

To slightly misquote a Motown classic:

'He might be cute, he's just a substitute... you're the permanent one'.

Pretty sure this is how Jack would compare his other dalliances with his love for Ennis.
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Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #9 on: Feb 17, 2006, 06:43 PM »
To slightly misquote a Motown classic:

'He might be cute, he's just a substitute... you're the permanent one'.

Pretty sure this is how Jack would compare his other dalliances with his love for Ennis.

Luv it!!!

'He might be cute, he's just a substitute... you're the permanent one'.
Thankx
Froggy
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Offline camom

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #10 on: Feb 17, 2006, 08:37 PM »
Jack was more experienced, yes. Was he a playa? no.  If he was, he would not have stuck around for 20 years, driving all all those miles. 
If you look closely in the Mexico scene, he doesn't look too happy.


He looks downright miserable.  If that's how you look when you're a player, celibacy would be a hot deal.

camom

Offline ethan

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #11 on: Feb 17, 2006, 09:12 PM »
IMO, Jack is not a player.

Just think about 20 years of long distance relationship and love. Who else can top that for twenty years? If his love for Ennis makes him a player, gosh I am just nobody.  :)

Also, don't forget that Ennis dated Cassie. That is what I probably would call someone a player.
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2006, 09:13 PM by ethan »
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matsuki33

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #12 on: Mar 01, 2006, 12:45 AM »
Well it think that he went to mexico as a way of revenge because he was so deeply sad with the fact that Ennis was afraid to be with him, i don't want to defend ennis but he was traumatized with the aspect that he saw when he was a kid, and when jack appears there he obviously got scared and jack in revenge went to mexico he was probably trying to find a way to forget him or at least substitute him for one night

Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #13 on: Mar 01, 2006, 12:08 PM »
IMO, Jack is not a player.

Just think about 20 years of long distance relationship and love. Who else can top that for twenty years? If his love for Ennis makes him a player, gosh I am just nobody.  :)

Also, don't forget that Ennis dated Cassie. That is what I probably would call someone a player.

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Offline tpe

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #14 on: Mar 01, 2006, 02:02 PM »
Jack was more experienced, yes. Was he a playa? no.  If he was, he would not have stuck around for 20 years, driving all all those miles. 
If you look closely in the Mexico scene, he doesn't look too happy.


I would have to agree.


Jack explored other loves only when he could not get enough of Ennis.  Ennis would have sufficed...

Offline Titus

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #15 on: Mar 01, 2006, 02:20 PM »
Jack was shagging other guys those four years before he and ennis were reunited (as per the short story), then off to Mexico when Ennis couldn't take the step and live with jack, and then again with Randall Malone.  Short leashes and all that.  Jack loved Ennis no doubt, but he needed more than Ennis was willing to give, so he found it as best he could.  Sad really when they could have been so happy together had Ennis not bben so traumatised by the murder he saw as a child.  So many people fail to live their own lives as they would choose, simply out of fear of what others will think or do.  Sad, very sad.  maybe we need to change that.  Titus.
"Holding on to this moment of love and forgiveness mediated by this beautiful, loving boy.  Whose heart and soul had passed through the shadows and remained unsullied, undefeated."  The Redemption of Ennis Del Mar

Offline Toadily

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #16 on: Mar 01, 2006, 02:27 PM »
Another thing, and I love the fact hte movie didn't talk about this and focussed on the imtimate lives instead, is the world was changing. It was the late 70's, early 80's when the movie ends. Now not a highly evolved time, but still the 60's were over, alternative lifestyles were becoming the norm.  I am sure Jack went to movies and read the paper.  Divorce was more common, so leaving Lureen may have seemed more normal. I mean it was still a homophobic time but not the 50's either.
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Offline Tom

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #17 on: Mar 01, 2006, 02:33 PM »
Each of the times we see Jack being unfaithful, like in Mexico as has been said before, he looks like he is just going throught the motions, there is no joy in his face. When Randall is sitting on the bench with him outside the dance, watch Jack's face....it's like OK then lets....no real passion.

Compare this to the reunion scene, unadulterated joy. It makes my heart soar for them.  :D

When they meet down by the river and Jack is waiting, watch first his face as Ennis pulls up and then Ennis's face as he gets out the truck and looks at Jack. These boys are in love.

The Acting skills of Jake and Heath here is wonderful. It is a story but here those joyous expressions make me totally and utterly believe that these two men are in love. I forget at these two wonderous parts of this story that I am watching a movie.

The thing with Jack, he wants the love and the sex...he beleives he can get both from Ennis. I know that he knows Ennis loves him, but somehow it isn't enough.  Totally wonderful, absolutely tragic, classically heartbreaking.  :'(

Tom
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Offline Toadily

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #18 on: Mar 01, 2006, 02:37 PM »
You're making me cry...
"it's Love, Blockhead!"
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aimi15

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #19 on: Mar 01, 2006, 02:41 PM »
Each of the times we see Jack being unfaithful, like in Mexico as has been said before, he looks like he is just going throught the motions, there is no joy in his face. When Randall is sitting on the bench with him outside the dance, watch Jack's face....it's like OK then lets....no real passion.

Compare this to the reunion scene, unadulterated joy. It makes my heart soar for them.  :D

When they meet down by the river and Jack is waiting, watch first his face as Ennis pulls up and then Ennis's face as he gets out the truck and looks at Jack. These boys are in love.

The Acting skills of Jake and Heath here is wonderful. It is a story but here those joyous expressions make me totally and utterly believe that these two men are in love. I forget at these two wonderous parts of this story that I am watching a movie.

The thing with Jack, he wants the love and the sex...he beleives he can get both from Ennis. I know that he knows Ennis loves him, but somehow it isn't enough.  Totally wonderful, absolutely tragic, classically heartbreaking.  :'(

Tom
Wonderful post tombul - yes the joy on Jacks face watching Ennis unload the truck - fabulous moment for me, by this point first watching film i knew the demise of their relationship was going to kill me, and it did, and it has every time since. You've summed up the answer to this thread IMO, Jack WAS just existing playing out this life with these other lovers, only with Ennis did his love COME TO LIFE and satisfy him completely - how heartbreaking  :'( :'( :'(

Offline stephan

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #20 on: Mar 01, 2006, 03:08 PM »
Well it think that he went to mexico as a way of revenge because he was so deeply sad with the fact that Ennis was afraid to be with him (...)

The very same thought struck me too, matsuki. Jack had no intention of driving to Mexico at first, he just wanted to be with Ennis who was newly divorced. In the film, this is the first hint that Jack is looking for boyfriends elsewhere. But he isn't looking for a replacement for Ennis. Therefore, Jack is not a player. He has more intergrity than that.  :)

Offline Toadily

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #21 on: Mar 01, 2006, 03:25 PM »
You know their first love scene is sort of ...innocent in a way. I mean Jack taking Ennis's hand like that. I mean didnt' he know that Ennis would take it away?  So I mean a real player would have been more smooth than that.
I always find that so oddly sweet when he just pulls his hand over, it's Klutzy too...like Jack is.
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Offline Tom

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #22 on: Mar 01, 2006, 03:31 PM »
Toadily, I have always liked the look of Jack but I too always thought of him as a bit of a Klutz. Nothing definite but I always thought him slightly gormless in the short story. lovely but gormless. God even his father in law thought he was hopeless.

He was always more likely to act on an impulse than Ennis ever would. Ennis was always a creature of habit except when with Jack.

Tom
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Offline Toadily

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #23 on: Mar 01, 2006, 03:37 PM »
My feeling is Jack just didn't fit in anywhere. He was a walking anacronism, or however you spell it.  He would be fine in todays world but not then, and I don't just mean sexual preference. I mean the whole package, post war amercia with the 3.5 kids and the job, and two car garage. 
« Last Edit: Mar 01, 2006, 03:40 PM by Toadily »
"it's Love, Blockhead!"
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Offline Titus

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #24 on: Mar 01, 2006, 06:09 PM »
Quote
Well it think that he went to mexico as a way of revenge because he was so deeply sad with the fact that Ennis was afraid to be with him (...)


The very same thought struck me too, matsuki. Jack had no intention of driving to Mexico at first, he just wanted to be with Ennis who was newly divorced. In the film, this is the first hint that Jack is looking for boyfriends elsewhere. But he isn't looking for a replacement for Ennis. Therefore, Jack is not a player. He has more intergrity than that. 

Jack's heart was broken by the only one he really loved.  Who didn't have the courage to be with him always.  The divorce bit broke his heart.  He went to Mexico to find some comfort as best he could. :'(  Titus.
"Holding on to this moment of love and forgiveness mediated by this beautiful, loving boy.  Whose heart and soul had passed through the shadows and remained unsullied, undefeated."  The Redemption of Ennis Del Mar

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #25 on: Mar 01, 2006, 11:08 PM »
Jack was shagging other guys those four years before he and ennis were reunited (as per the short story), then off to Mexico when Ennis couldn't take the step and live with jack, and then again with Randall Malone.  Short leashes and all that.  Jack loved Ennis no doubt, but he needed more than Ennis was willing to give, so he found it as best he could.  Sad really when they could have been so happy together had Ennis not bben so traumatised by the murder he saw as a child.  So many people fail to live their own lives as they would choose, simply out of fear of what others will think or do.  Sad, very sad.  maybe we need to change that.  Titus.

right on titus
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #26 on: Mar 01, 2006, 11:15 PM »
Quote
Well it think that he went to mexico as a way of revenge because he was so deeply sad with the fact that Ennis was afraid to be with him (...)


The very same thought struck me too, matsuki. Jack had no intention of driving to Mexico at first, he just wanted to be with Ennis who was newly divorced. In the film, this is the first hint that Jack is looking for boyfriends elsewhere. But he isn't looking for a replacement for Ennis. Therefore, Jack is not a player. He has more intergrity than that. 

Jack's heart was broken by the only one he really loved.  Who didn't have the courage to be with him always.  The divorce bit broke his heart.  He went to Mexico to find some comfort as best he could. :'(  Titus.

Titus - That scene opened up the flood gates for me. Watching him cry as he drives away...god I was a mess. But thanks for your post because he was searching out comfort, and new he couldn't return home for that.
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Offline Hermes1

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #27 on: Mar 01, 2006, 11:18 PM »
But what's up with the guy that Jack chose in Mexico?  He bore no resemblance to Ennis. If you believe the top/bottom philosophy that some do about Jack being the "catcher" in the relationship, then was that what he was looking for in the Mexican guy?  The trick was a little soft - voice, appearance, etc.  I was disappointed in Jack.  It didn't fit the paradigm, at least in my mind, of what he had with Ennis.
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matsuki33

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #28 on: Mar 02, 2006, 12:04 AM »
i just read the book and i can't change my mind about jack he wasn't a player he was so full of rage that he can't the live he would like to have and that when he thinks that he would be able Ennis allways push him back, the are some people that say "you get what you deserve" in this case Jack never got what he really deserve Ennis.

Offline Titus

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Re: Jack, a player??? No.
« Reply #29 on: Mar 02, 2006, 07:14 AM »
Quote
But what's up with the guy that Jack chose in Mexico?  He bore no resemblance to Ennis. If you believe the top/bottom philosophy that some do about Jack being the "catcher" in the relationship, then was that what he was looking for in the Mexican guy?  The trick was a little soft - voice, appearance, etc.  I was disappointed in Jack.  It didn't fit the paradigm, at least in my mind, of what he had with Ennis.

I'm not convinced about the top/bottom dynamic-sure it must have been a factor at first, but I think over 20 years Ennis may have taken a walk on the wild side.  As far as Jack going for the Mexican hustler, I don't think it mattered who was doing what. It was all about getting some dick.  I think most of us have been there at some point.  Titus.
"Holding on to this moment of love and forgiveness mediated by this beautiful, loving boy.  Whose heart and soul had passed through the shadows and remained unsullied, undefeated."  The Redemption of Ennis Del Mar