Author Topic: Three What If's  (Read 14818 times)

Offline dalemidex

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Three What If's
« on: Mar 03, 2006, 05:55 PM »
At three key points in the film, I find myself increasingly thinking "what if...."   To me, these are three pivotal points where they story brushes close to a sudden different turn, but ultimately follows a different road.  So I ask:

What if….

(1)  What if Ennis and Jack had not parted as they did after bringing down the sheep?

Would Ennis have recognized at that point he should not marry Alma?  Would Jack have asked him not to?  Would they have a life together of some sort?

As much as I’d like to think things would have been better for our two lovers, I don’t know they would have been.  At that point it would have been easier for one or the other to move so they could be closer to each other.  But they would not have lived together or been at all public.  Ennis would’t allow that.  He might not even have let things go on.  Up on the mountain it was remote and safe…not just from other people,  but from “himself”.  Whether or not you think that Ennis was/would today be “gay” or not, no doubt that his behavior was queer.  He may not have wanted to believe that, but even if he never felt attracted to another man in his entire life, what he was doing with Jack branded him as queer.  Could Ennis accept that, day to day, in real life?  I don’t think so.


(2)  What if Jack HAD come up for coffee the morning after the hotel, and it was realized  (either by Alma’s confrontation or uncontrollable crying) that their secret was out to her?

Would Alma have left Ennis?  Would Ennis have been a free man to pursue or be pursued by Jack?

I’d suspect Ennis and Alma would have split up at that point.  Certainly not every woman with two little kid leaves her husband when an affair is discovered, straight or gay.  But even then I think Alma would have recognized that this wasn’t Ennis just messing around, and, well, that her husband was “nasty”.  Eight years later Alma did divorce Ennis, not from any particular new incident, but the continued grind of poverty, emotional distance, and of course the fishing trips.  I don’t see anything that different about Alma 1975 versus Alma 1967 that explains why she divorced him then but would’t have had the gumption to do it if there was a confrontation in the kitchen the morning after the motel scene.

For Ennis and Jack, I think this would have been dynamite, and not in a JJ Walker kind of way.  Ennis has a violent temper (literally) and even if he did not harm Alma or Jack in such a confrontation, it would be ugly.  And I suspect Ennis would never allow himself to see Jack again because that would be admitting that Alma was right in accusing him of being queer.  I don’t think the 1967 Ennis could get over that kind of confrontation, and if he ever did Jack would be years-gone by then.


(3)  What if Ennis had not had the girls when Jack came up after the divorce and instead been free for Jack’s visit?

On first viewing I thought this was just unfortunate timing – Jack should have contacted Ennis first.  But in fact it’s a clear sign that Jack thought Ennis would now be free to live his life with Jack, and instead the divorce didn’t change a thing.

The girls being there made it almost convenient for nothing to be confronted, nothing to change.  Were Ennis alone, Jack would have tried to force Ennis’ hand.  As it was, Ennis didn’t even want to be seen with Jack in the non-mountain world.  Yet here would be Jack, right at his house just off the road, wanting to talk about plans for their new life together.   No girls there to signal Jack to leave.  So I think some confrontation might have ensued.  Things might have come to a head then already.  I don’t know that it would have had a happy ending.


-------------------

In all three of these what-if scenarios, I’m seeing a thread in my opinion of them.  All those years there was a delicate balance for each: 

--For Ennis it was a balance between hanging on to the vision of who he wanted to be (how he saw himself and others saw him) versus the reality of who he really was and what he really wanted (Jack).

--For Jack it was a balance between hanging on to the dream of what he wanted (a life with Ennis) versus the possibility of losing him completely.

I think this lasted as long as it did because if they upset the apple cart it might have all come apart.  For Jack to ever get his life with Ennis, it would have cost Ennis his self-identity.  I hate to use a word like “doomed”, but it’s hard to see it any other way.  Kind of depressing.  I just want to jump into that story and do something.  But what???


Offline tpe

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #1 on: Mar 03, 2006, 06:57 PM »
dalemidex, I see that this is very well thought out.  Thanks.  It deserves some thinking over.  The three scenarios are excellent starting points -- could have been enough for 3 separate threads (one each), but I know you want to save space. 

Will get back to this...  And thanks again.

Offline dalemidex

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #2 on: Mar 04, 2006, 08:25 AM »
dalemidex, I see that this is very well thought out.  Thanks.  It deserves some thinking over.  The three scenarios are excellent starting points -- could have been enough for 3 separate threads (one each), but I know you want to save space. 

Will get back to this...  And thanks again.

Thanks, TPE.  I just keep wishing there was a way for this story to turn out better, but it just doens't seem to be.

Offline stephan

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #3 on: Mar 04, 2006, 03:02 PM »
dalemidex, I see that this is very well thought out.  Thanks.  It deserves some thinking over.  The three scenarios are excellent starting points -- could have been enough for 3 separate threads (one each), but I know you want to save space. 

Will get back to this...  And thanks again.

I agree with tpe !!! Having thought about the 3rd what if (if the girls hadn't been there when Jack arrived), I would see Ennis not letting him get away, as long as none of the neighbours noticed ! But they would have to have that conversation : Jack would be there to visit, not to move in with Ennis. Hello, arguments !

Offline tpe

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #4 on: Mar 04, 2006, 07:35 PM »
One by one.  ;)

Quote
(1)  What if Ennis and Jack had not parted as they did after bringing down the sheep?

Had there been a time when Ennis and Jack could have had the best chance at making a life together, perhaps this was the time.  The parting, as shown in the movie, is devastating.  Jack, the more emotive of the two, was clearly clutching at straws -- anything, to see his Ennis another time...  Ennis is resolute against his heart -- no wonder he could not help but collapse after all that wasted energy of trying to be stoic in the face of love.

Had they not parted at that moment, I believe things would still conspire to set them apart.  Ennis was not ready, and Jack was too emotive to look ahead and think of the consequences.  Both were dirt poor at that point, and this would not have helped.

What is against them was the very time and place in which they lived: 1963 rural Wyoming.  They could not have lived together openly then without ending up like Earl and Rich.  Ennis knew this, and his world view was so narrow that it precluded moving to another place that could have been more accepting (if such as place existed in the USA in 1963.)  Hence, my view is that even if they had not parted and stayed with each other at that early point, things would still have conspired to pull them apart.  Had they tried to live openly the way they chose, they would have probably been killed.

And what about Alma?  She would have probably resigned herself to a broken engagement, but she would not have kept silent or remained indifferent as to why Ennis changed his mind.

I do not like to think of myself as a fatalist, but time and place conspire to make me one in this instance...
« Last Edit: Mar 05, 2006, 02:59 PM by tpe »

Offline CherryCake

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #5 on: Mar 04, 2006, 09:53 PM »
What if….

(1)  What if Ennis and Jack had not parted as they did after bringing down the sheep?

Well, as Ennis was fishing for his lost shirt on that last day in front of Aguirre office, I would have wanted Jack to just come out and say:
"Ennis, for chrrissakes let me give you a ride home. No big deal. No one knows us here and I will drop you off a mile from your house if ya want, ya big scaredy cat. Now get in the truck, Ennis!"
Ennis would climb in the truck and the Jack would now have a few hours to talk Ennis into coming to his daddy's ranch for the remainder of the summer to 'help out'  Well, the ranch being in bad shape, Jack finds more and more things that he needs Ennis's expertise.  The lower 10 needs topsoil.  The barn needs a new roof.  The cows needs branding and the horses need a good hoof cleaning. 
At night  Ennis would bunk on the floor of Jack's room and tell Jack to quiet down when Jack would huskily whisper that he can't sleep. 
Jack's parents accept thier son's  good, hardworking, polite friend as part of the family; the other son they never had.  Oh, sure, they would see the playful looks Jack and Ennis toss back and forth,  Jack's flicking tongue, curling smile and sense their special bond.  Ennis would insist on being respectful of all things physical in the company of Jack's  parents, of course, but Jack, overjoyed at waking up to Ennis every morning would proudly wear his short leash.
Eventually a cabin is built on the ranch, and for work convenience sake, of course, the boys live there. 
A pair of deuces finally somewhere.
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2006, 08:19 PM by CherryCake »
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Offline dalemidex

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #6 on: Mar 05, 2006, 03:12 PM »
What if….

(1)  What if Ennis and Jack had not parted as they did after bringing down the sheep?

Well, as Ennis was fishing for his lost shirt on that last day in front of Aguirre office, I would have wanted Jack to just come out and say:
"Ennis, for chrrissakes let me give you a ride home. No big deal. No one knows us here and I will drop you off a mile from your house if ya want, ya big scaredy cat. Now get in the truck, Ennis!"
Ennis would climb in the truck and the Jack would now have a few hours to talk Ennis into coming to his daddy's ranch for the remainder of the summer to 'help out'  Well, the ranch being in bad shape, Jack finds more and more things that he needs Ennis's expertise.  The lower 10 needs topsoil.  The barn needs a new roof.  The cows needs branding and the horses need a good hoof cleaning. 
At night  Ennis would bunk on the floor of Jack's room and tell Jack to quiet down when Jack would huskily whisper that he can't sleep. 
Jack's parents accept their son's  good, hardworking, polite friend as part of the family; the other son they never had.  Oh, sure, they would see the playful looks Jack and Ennis toss back and forth,  Jack's flicking tongue, curling smile and sense their special bond.  Ennis would insist on being respectful of all things physical in the company of Jack's  parents, of course, but Jack, overjoyed at waking up to Ennis every morning would proudly wear his short leash.
Eventually a cabin is built on the ranch, and for work convenience sake, of course, the boys live there. 
A pair of deuces going somewhere.

Oh do I want to believe that!   ;)

So often things are not chosen but instead just sort of happen or develop.  Seeing what we've seen, it's hard to imagine Jack's father accepting their son and his "friend".  Heck, Mrs Twist was a Pentecostal who probably would have bristled...to put it nicely... if her 19 year old son took a male lover.   (We see her much older with many years to digest who Ennis Del Mar really was to Jack, and finally now in the grief of his death.  It would be a different person in different circumstances.)  But unless there was some reason that the Twists had suspicions about their son...or if they got caught...it might have worked out.  Time has a way of rounding off the edges, and as time passed with Ennis at the Twist's the truth could have slowly seeped in to those who were ready to understand it as they were ready.   I really want to believe this could have worked!

--------

CherryCake, this is absolutely B E A U T I F U  L and I want to thank you.  It has been about ten minutes since I first read your story, and I feel as if a weight has been lifted.  Like I've been given hope of seeing a long-lost loved one.  Like I, too, may find myself waking up from a dream like the short-story-Ennis, with a feeling of warmth and vague pleasure where I thought there would be none.

Thank you!!!!
« Last Edit: Mar 05, 2006, 03:23 PM by dalemidex »

Offline n061857

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #7 on: Mar 06, 2006, 08:54 AM »

Quote
Ennis would climb in the truck and the Jack would now have a few hours to talk Ennis into coming to his daddy's ranch for the remainder of the summer to 'help out'  Well, the ranch being in bad shape, Jack finds more and more things that he needs Ennis's expertise.  The lower 10 needs topsoil.  The barn needs a new roof.  The cows needs branding and the horses need a good hoof cleaning. 
Quote

Don't forget Ennis' special talent of catrating animals!  Ha! Ha!  Hopefully Jack's dad doesn't share that talent, he'd probably castrate Ennis!

Offline Jack_ME

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #8 on: Mar 10, 2006, 04:41 PM »

What if….

(1)  What if Ennis and Jack had not parted as they did after bringing down the sheep?

Well, as Ennis was fishing for his lost shirt on that last day in front of Aguirre office, I would have wanted Jack to just come out and say:
"Ennis, for chrrissakes let me give you a ride home. No big deal. No one knows us here and I will drop you off a mile from your house if ya want, ya big scaredy cat. Now get in the truck, Ennis!"
Ennis would climb in the truck and the Jack would now have a few hours to talk Ennis into coming to his daddy's ranch for the remainder of the summer to 'help out'  Well, the ranch being in bad shape, Jack finds more and more things that he needs Ennis's expertise.  The lower 10 needs topsoil.  The barn needs a new roof.  The cows needs branding and the horses need a good hoof cleaning. 
At night  Ennis would bunk on the floor of Jack's room and tell Jack to quiet down when Jack would huskily whisper that he can't sleep. 
Jack's parents accept their son's  good, hardworking, polite friend as part of the family; the other son they never had.  Oh, sure, they would see the playful looks Jack and Ennis toss back and forth,  Jack's flicking tongue, curling smile and sense their special bond.  Ennis would insist on being respectful of all things physical in the company of Jack's  parents, of course, but Jack, overjoyed at waking up to Ennis every morning would proudly wear his short leash.
Eventually a cabin is built on the ranch, and for work convenience sake, of course, the boys live there. 
A pair of deuces finally somewhere.[/size]

Cherry Cake, this is so sweet.........

It's nice to think of the boys having a life together......but.. it's really a fantasy. For so many reasons.

At that age, both parents would have been 20 years younger. Emphasis on Pentecostal mother.
As Dale says, she would not have had the 20 years and the final loss and grief to mellow her into acceptance.

But most off, Ennis could not have done that. He could not have handled being in the same bedroom with Jack...because of the natural temptation to continue their passionate physicality.....and THAT would have been quite out of the question for Ennis in that environment.

So complications.

Had there already BEEN another cabin, or they immediately set about to build one, I think it might have worked some, but then, Ennis as we know him, would have been constantly uptight about everything Jack did which could be construed as queer. I think Ennis's homophobia would really have come out under those circumstances and Jack not nearly so concerned about that, would likely have pushed Ennis too far and the result might not have been pretty at all.

Beautiful dreamlike fantasy is where your scenario should stay, because it's  very nice,
but it's won't stand up to analysis with these personalities involved I'm afraid.

Jack in Maine
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Offline Jack_ME

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #9 on: Mar 10, 2006, 04:57 PM »
Dale your points are interesting to consider.

The points you raise about possibilities at the times in the movie story are turning points in the character's lives. But they couldn't have gone any other way.

As you say about option No.1: couldn't happen. Ennis couldn't deal with that kind of proximity, INVOLVING other people.
POSSIBLY he could have handled sharing living quarters privately, in a cabin, or another house, but that is also unlikely given his traumatic childhood event. He would be uptight.


So all seriousness aside,
here's a what if..........
What if Jack had said:
Ennis I'll give you  a ride...and they went in to town and met up with Alma. And Ennis introduces and they all get along as friendly, and Jack STILL comes up with the idea of going up to work his Daddy's ranch. So all three of them go up to Lightning Flat.
And all three of them live together. At this point Alma has no bitterness toward Jack, so she's friendly and she likes him and eventually she comes to realize that Ennis loves Jack too, and eventually they all confess to each other the truth. And Alma, no bittered by years, and not eliminated from Ennis's life at that point (and still engaged to marry him) agrees to live as a family unit and share Ennis with Jack.
So then they have this little family, with a female presence and so Ennis and Jack do not have to concern themselves about "how it looks" and Alma doesn't grow bitter and in fact she grows to love Jack too, and they all live happily ever after with their little secret kept within the household! And the ranch gets whipped into shape and becomes a huge success and they make lots of money and they build a huge house and the kids grow up to go Harvard and they become doctors and lawyers and they fight for good causes and they fight to get homophobia wiped out, and eventually Ennis and Jack (and Alma) go public and head up PFLAG and GLADD and go to Washington to speak before the Senate.......and they win the Noble Prize for Human Rights!

And that's no lie.

Just a dream on steroids!

Jack in Maine
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Offline Jack_ME

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #10 on: Mar 10, 2006, 05:11 PM »
At three key points in the film, I find myself increasingly thinking "what if...."   To me, these are three pivotal points where they story brushes close to a sudden different turn, but ultimately follows a different road. 

-------------------

In all three of these what-if scenarios, I’m seeing a thread in my opinion of them.  All those years there was a delicate balance for each: 

--For Ennis it was a balance between hanging on to the vision of who he wanted to be (how he saw himself and others saw him) versus the reality of who he really was and what he really wanted (Jack).

--For Jack it was a balance between hanging on to the dream of what he wanted (a life with Ennis) versus the possibility of losing him completely.

I think this lasted as long as it did because if they upset the apple cart it might have all come apart.  For Jack to ever get his life with Ennis, it would have cost Ennis his self-identity.  I hate to use a word like “doomed”, but it’s hard to see it any other way.  Kind of depressing.  I just want to jump into that story and do something.  But what???



Dale, I'm afraid you've got it there. There was this balance. Hard unhappy unfulfilled but there was this balance. We know Ennis has difficulty with the whole "Queer" thing.....so out of the private environment of Brokeback he just can't handle it. He can't handle it in the presence of, or context of others.

So maybe if they got jobs in the National Park Service, they could live most of their time in isolated happiness.

But even your option 3, though it seems like it might have had a chance.....Ennis has children and child-support to consider so he could/would not break off and move away from his children. That would preclude a major change in environs, and so we are back to the same objection.

Poor Jack....... FROM THE FIRST I HAD WANTED TO SEE THAT POSTCARD THAT ENNIS SENT!!
Just what did Ennis say that gave Jack so much hope after all those years had already gone by???
Seems Ennis must have said something provocative to Jack, even if unintentional.

Poor Jack......so happy....singing along.....King of the Road.....banging that steering wheel.....only to have his heart broken.

Poor sweet man. And poor sad Ennis. Depriving himself of love and companionship from his fear.

I'm gonna have a good cry now!

Jack in Maine

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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #11 on: Aug 11, 2007, 10:31 PM »
Well, as Ennis was fishing for his lost shirt on that last day in front of Aguirre office, I would have wanted Jack to just come out and say:
"Ennis, for chrrissakes let me give you a ride home. No big deal. No one knows us here and I will drop you off a mile from your house if ya want, ya big scaredy cat. Now get in the truck, Ennis!"
Ennis would climb in the truck and the Jack would now have a few hours to talk Ennis into coming to his daddy's ranch for the remainder of the summer to 'help out'  Well, the ranch being in bad shape, Jack finds more and more things that he needs Ennis's expertise.  The lower 10 needs topsoil.  The barn needs a new roof.  The cows needs branding and the horses need a good hoof cleaning. 
At night  Ennis would bunk on the floor of Jack's room and tell Jack to quiet down when Jack would huskily whisper that he can't sleep. 
Jack's parents accept thier son's  good, hardworking, polite friend as part of the family; the other son they never had.  Oh, sure, they would see the playful looks Jack and Ennis toss back and forth,  Jack's flicking tongue, curling smile and sense their special bond.  Ennis would insist on being respectful of all things physical in the company of Jack's  parents, of course, but Jack, overjoyed at waking up to Ennis every morning would proudly wear his short leash.
Eventually a cabin is built on the ranch, and for work convenience sake, of course, the boys live there. 
A pair of deuces finally somewhere.

This is exactly what should have happened in my opinion, but it did'nt but this  is the perfect  scenario.I love this and am very touched by it.  But the story is what it is, so we can only  be free to dream right? It's Nice to go back and read some of older threads . When Brokeback was new to us, Of course our thoughts evolve as more time goes by, but some truths remain the same, Even as  more truths are uncovered. Great dicussion. :cr)
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Offline tpe

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #12 on: Aug 13, 2007, 08:07 AM »
This is exactly what should have happened in my opinion, but it did'nt but this  is the perfect  scenario.I love this and am very touched by it.  But the story is what it is, so we can only  be free to dream right? It's Nice to go back and read some of older threads . When Brokeback was new to us, Of course our thoughts evolve as more time goes by, but some truths remain the same, Even as  more truths are uncovered. Great dicussion. :cr)

Yes, to see some of these older discussions gives us an appreciation of how BBM had touched us then -- and how it continues to ask us questions even today.  The themes never go away -- we only develop different ways of understanding them through time...


Offline proulxfan

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #13 on: Aug 13, 2007, 08:28 PM »
tpe,

You said what has been on my mind for the last several weeks.

And dalemidex brought up something that has helped me resolve what had been a nagging conundrum.  I should say here that the problem is partially due to the differing "weights" in E and J's final confrontation as described in the ss vs. the film. The line from the ss that had always stuck in my craw was how, at the end of the argument, "...what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

But as dalemidex pointed out: "In all three of these what-if scenarios, I’m seeing a thread in my opinion of them.  All those years there was a delicate balance for each: 

--For Ennis it was a balance between hanging on to the vision of who he wanted to be (how he saw himself and others saw him) versus the reality of who he really was and what he really wanted (Jack).

--For Jack it was a balance between hanging on to the dream of what he wanted (a life with Ennis) versus the possibility of losing him completely.

I think this lasted as long as it did because if they upset the apple cart it might have all come apart.  For Jack to ever get his life with Ennis, it would have cost Ennis his self-identity.  I hate to use a word like “doomed”, but it’s hard to see it any other way.  Kind of depressing.  I just want to jump into that story and do something.  But what??? "


Ennis's pain on hearing " I wish I knew how to quit you" is momentary, quickly supressed, leading to their torquing things back almost to where they had been. (And another tantalizing possiblity is just how much "open space" is suggested by that almost...)

But my point here is that within the context of the ss, given dalemidex's observations, this is plausible.

The same scene in the film, especially the depiction of the depth of Ennis's anguish and suffering, seems destined to force some kind of movement or sea-change for at least one of the pair. Especially given the significance of " I just can't stand this anymore, Jack." So that, for me, was key in leading me to think that Jack felt he had to "let go" of his dream of a life with Ennis and make whatever adjustments that decision entailed. Nothing ended, etc. doesn't seem so plausible in the context of the overwhelmingly wrenching scene the audience sees.

So I had always had a bone to pick with Ms. Proulx about that line, but now I can "let go" of that, just relax, and appreciate the differences in nuance. *sigh*

« Last Edit: Aug 13, 2007, 08:42 PM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline tpe

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #14 on: Aug 14, 2007, 07:46 AM »
tpe,

You said what has been on my mind for the last several weeks.

And dalemidex brought up something that has helped me resolve what had been a nagging conundrum.  I should say here that the problem is partially due to the differing "weights" in E and J's final confrontation as described in the ss vs. the film. The line from the ss that had always stuck in my craw was how, at the end of the argument, "...what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

But as dalemidex pointed out: "In all three of these what-if scenarios, I’m seeing a thread in my opinion of them.  All those years there was a delicate balance for each: 

--For Ennis it was a balance between hanging on to the vision of who he wanted to be (how he saw himself and others saw him) versus the reality of who he really was and what he really wanted (Jack).

--For Jack it was a balance between hanging on to the dream of what he wanted (a life with Ennis) versus the possibility of losing him completely.

I think this lasted as long as it did because if they upset the apple cart it might have all come apart.  For Jack to ever get his life with Ennis, it would have cost Ennis his self-identity.  I hate to use a word like “doomed”, but it’s hard to see it any other way.  Kind of depressing.  I just want to jump into that story and do something.  But what??? "


Ennis's pain on hearing " I wish I knew how to quit you" is momentary, quickly supressed, leading to their torquing things back almost to where they had been. (And another tantalizing possiblity is just how much "open space" is suggested by that almost...)

But my point here is that within the context of the ss, given dalemidex's observations, this is plausible.

The same scene in the film, especially the depiction of the depth of Ennis's anguish and suffering, seems destined to force some kind of movement or sea-change for at least one of the pair. Especially given the significance of " I just can't stand this anymore, Jack." So that, for me, was key in leading me to think that Jack felt he had to "let go" of his dream of a life with Ennis and make whatever adjustments that decision entailed. Nothing ended, etc. doesn't seem so plausible in the context of the overwhelmingly wrenching scene the audience sees.

So I had always had a bone to pick with Ms. Proulx about that line, but now I can "let go" of that, just relax, and appreciate the differences in nuance. *sigh*



Beautifully nuanced, proulxfan.  Especially about the way the collapse of Ennis in the final confrontation in the movie seems to go a bit further. 

I agree that the weights are different.  I would go further perhaps in saying that the premise may be slightly shifted in each one. By this, I mean that the inclusion of the line "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" seems to reveal a more vulnerable Ennis, and it does also suggest that it would be impossible for Jack to move forward with his dream without destroying the anchor on which that dream rests.  In other words, the "equilibrium" is more illusionary in the movie, and that we are led to believe that the sense of equilibrium was but a lie.




Offline jedibarrister

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #15 on: Jul 05, 2009, 02:05 PM »
Quote
(1)  What if Ennis and Jack had not parted as they did after bringing down the sheep?

In the book, they take off in separate trucks in opposite directions.  That was more poetic.  In the movie, they took off in the same direction and Ennis w/o a truck.  That made no sense.  Why not offer to give Ennis a ride at least for some distance?  Imagine if Jack and driven back to offer that ride and saw Ennis convulsing on the side of the road.  How would that have altered the calculus? Given that Jack was going to Lighting Flats and Ennis had no job wherever Alma was, it was surprising that Jack never offered to have Ennis come up to his parents' ranch for the remaining month.

Quote
What if Jack HAD come up for coffee the morning after the hotel, and it was realized  (either by Alma’s confrontation or uncontrollable crying) that their secret was out to her?

Alma kept her emotions in check from Ennis...why would she ever let on with Jack there?  He was in the apartment right after the reunion kiss and she didn't give anything away...why would she the next morning?  If Alma had confronted Ennis earlier, their marriage would've ended earlier.  Moreover, his relationship with the girls would've gone south.  When Alma confronted Ennis, in the book, Ennis had nothing to do with his girls until they grew sense and left their mother and called him.  Would Ennis have blocked off Jack?  Yes...for a time anyway.  But without Alma to watch and judge him, the fishing trips would've eventually started. 

Quote
(3)  What if Ennis had not had the girls when Jack came up after the divorce and instead been free for Jack’s visit?

Jack would've stayed the night and still had to go back to Texas.  But I think that their last conversation before Jack died might've happened then.  Jack drove 14 hours on a simple announcement.  Ennis clearly say the hope in Jack's eyes and mind and if they could've talked about it, then they would've said the things unsaid...at least some of them.  Ennis was deeply scarred by his dad and his homophobic fears had him really hating himself.  He never would've given in entirely.  But perhaps he would've learned his own desires before it was too late. 


Offline tpe

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #16 on: Jul 06, 2009, 07:09 AM »
In the book, they take off in separate trucks in opposite directions.  That was more poetic.  In the movie, they took off in the same direction and Ennis w/o a truck.  That made no sense.  Why not offer to give Ennis a ride at least for some distance?  Imagine if Jack and driven back to offer that ride and saw Ennis convulsing on the side of the road.  How would that have altered the calculus? Given that Jack was going to Lighting Flats and Ennis had no job wherever Alma was, it was surprising that Jack never offered to have Ennis come up to his parents' ranch for the remaining month.

In fact, I think there is a separate thread here about why Ennis was not offered a ride. 

The key (I think) is Ennis's reluctance to accept help from Jack -- as illustrated by the scene where Jack offers to lend money to Ennis.  Secondly, perhaps both felt that it would have been awkward to prolong the goodbye, given that their futures seemed likely to diverge.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #17 on: Aug 02, 2009, 06:08 PM »
In the book, they take off in separate trucks in opposite directions.  That was more poetic.  In the movie, they took off in the same direction and Ennis w/o a truck.  That made no sense.  Why not offer to give Ennis a ride at least for some distance?  Imagine if Jack and driven back to offer that ride and saw Ennis convulsing on the side of the road.  How would that have altered the calculus? Given that Jack was going to Lighting Flats and Ennis had no job wherever Alma was, it was surprising that Jack never offered to have Ennis come up to his parents' ranch for the remaining month.

Part of the magic of the movie was the opening scene, when the truck came slowly meandering down the road on the side of Brokeback Mountain. The poverty of Ennis was depicted when he jumped out of the truck, with nothing but a paperbag. He didn't have nothing, even smoking half a cigarette, he had to carefully put it out and save the other half for later. Jack's truck was beat up. He's only slightly better off than Ennis. I agree with you that it makes more sense for them to be driving off in opposite directions, but then, the poignancy of missed opportunities would be missing, which in my opinion, makes for a more dramatic moment when Ennis convulsed with pain in the alley.

The shortstory and the movie are two distinct works of art. I happen to like the movie better, but I don't see it detracting from the artistic merits of the shortstory. They are simply two works in two very different media.

Alma kept her emotions in check from Ennis...why would she ever let on with Jack there?  He was in the apartment right after the reunion kiss and she didn't give anything away...why would she the next morning?  If Alma had confronted Ennis earlier, their marriage would've ended earlier.  Moreover, his relationship with the girls would've gone south.  When Alma confronted Ennis, in the book, Ennis had nothing to do with his girls until they grew sense and left their mother and called him.  Would Ennis have blocked off Jack?  Yes...for a time anyway.  But without Alma to watch and judge him, the fishing trips would've eventually started. 

I don't know if it would be in character for them to confront each other. We need to remember that these are poor rural folks in the '60s. All manners of secrecy was de rigor back then, when it comes to anything out of the ordinary, anything that is considered shameful. Even if Ennis and Jack knew that Alma knew about them, none of them would talk about it openly. Just as Ennis blew up and stormed out that Thanksgiving, they were not "wired" to be open and honest, like we have been trained from all 'em talk shows. Dr. Phil and Oprah have done and left their marks on American culture.

For decades, abuses in the family were hidden and never discussed. Alma did what she did, just like any other woman of her time.

Jack would've stayed the night and still had to go back to Texas.  But I think that their last conversation before Jack died might've happened then.  Jack drove 14 hours on a simple announcement.  Ennis clearly say the hope in Jack's eyes and mind and if they could've talked about it, then they would've said the things unsaid...at least some of them.  Ennis was deeply scarred by his dad and his homophobic fears had him really hating himself.  He never would've given in entirely.  But perhaps he would've learned his own desires before it was too late. 

The circumstances made it impossible for a good outcome. Ennis didn't want to make it obvious to the girls that Jack was more than a friend. Jack was too pissed and tired to stick around and find an alternative for Ennis to explain him to the girls. If Jack had stuck around a little, saying he is going to grab dinner before driving back to Texas, I am sure Ennis would have found a way to meet with him in the evening. Unfortunately, Jack was too miffed and humiliated to do anything but driving off, mad, hurt, and needing some loving from Mexico.

The lies we have to tell...make some circumstances inevitable, painful.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline atalley

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #18 on: Aug 05, 2009, 11:19 PM »
Well, as Ennis was fishing for his lost shirt on that last day in front of Aguirre office, I would have wanted Jack to just come out and say:
"Ennis, for chrrissakes let me give you a ride home. No big deal. No one knows us here and I will drop you off a mile from your house if ya want, ya big scaredy cat. Now get in the truck, Ennis!"
Ennis would climb in the truck and the Jack would now have a few hours to talk Ennis into coming to his daddy's ranch for the remainder of the summer to 'help out'  Well, the ranch being in bad shape, Jack finds more and more things that he needs Ennis's expertise.  The lower 10 needs topsoil.  The barn needs a new roof.  The cows needs branding and the horses need a good hoof cleaning. 
At night  Ennis would bunk on the floor of Jack's room and tell Jack to quiet down when Jack would huskily whisper that he can't sleep. 
Jack's parents accept thier son's  good, hardworking, polite friend as part of the family; the other son they never had.  Oh, sure, they would see the playful looks Jack and Ennis toss back and forth,  Jack's flicking tongue, curling smile and sense their special bond.  Ennis would insist on being respectful of all things physical in the company of Jack's  parents, of course, but Jack, overjoyed at waking up to Ennis every morning would proudly wear his short leash.
Eventually a cabin is built on the ranch, and for work convenience sake, of course, the boys live there. 
A pair of deuces finally somewhere.


Offline jedibarrister

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #19 on: Aug 06, 2009, 03:17 PM »
I'm fairly sure that sleep-over with buddies ended for Jack around the age of 10.  So if Ennis did end up helping at the Twist ranch, he'd bunk in the barn or at the most, on the sofa in the living room.  But yes, it was odd that he never offered the ride in the movie...but he couldn't since in the short story, Ennis had a truck and didn't need one.

Offline tpe

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #20 on: Aug 07, 2009, 06:54 AM »
Well, I think I mentioned in an old post that not being offered a ride, is understandable, given that (1) Jack was probably a bit wary offering a ride after Ennis's sharp rejection of the loan earlier on (showing that Ennis didn't like being made to look like someone in need), and (2) it was a most awkward moment for the two of them, and both of them perhaps felt that the sooner they parted, the less painful it would be in terms of a "final" separation.

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #21 on: Aug 07, 2009, 11:29 PM »
I've always wondered what would have happened if Ennis and Jack hadn't parted ways in August of 1963. It's definitely obvious in the end that if Ennis could go back in time to that moment, he would have never parted ways with Jack and gone on to marry Alma, but of course that was the Ennis of 1982, the Ennis that looking back, could see how big of a mistake he'd made in not listening to his heart. But we have to take into consideration the Ennis of that time, not the Ennis looking back with regret. The twenty year-old Ennis of 1963 was definitely too afraid to follow his heart. If he had, he would have saved himself a life of regret and feeling miserable because he wasn't able to be with his true love. There's no way that Jack would let Ennis go if he'd offered him a ride that mid August day in 1963. It would have taken some time, but Jack and Ennis would have had their sweet life together, it wouldn't be able to happen at first because of Jack's parents, and Ennis' fear at the time, but eventually, it would all come together. I'm still thinking about the other two what-ifs.

Offline tpe

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #22 on: Aug 10, 2009, 07:38 AM »
In a sad way, perhaps the 4 years separation was necessary -- even though it proved crucial in not allowing their relationship to flower in the succeeding 20 years.  It was "necessary" because both of them had to realize on their own that nothing else would have brought them the happiness they desired.  The 4 intervening years certainly taught both of them that as much as they wanted to "move on", they simply couldn't.  They realized that the paths they took wouldn't suffice, unless thier own individual paths coalesced.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #23 on: Aug 10, 2009, 08:32 AM »
In a sad way, perhaps the 4 years separation was necessary -- even though it proved crucial in not allowing their relationship to flower in the succeeding 20 years.  It was "necessary" because both of them had to realize on their own that nothing else would have brought them the happiness they desired.  The 4 intervening years certainly taught both of them that as much as they wanted to "move on", they simply couldn't.  They realized that the paths they took wouldn't suffice, unless thier own individual paths coalesced.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

The two nineteen-year-old cowboys needed time to mature on their own, too. I think, they were mature enough as individuals to stay together and start a new life together, if there wasn't homophobia in and out of their relationship....out there in society and in the memory of Ennis.

But given the fears, they had no choice.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #24 on: Aug 11, 2009, 07:27 AM »
Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

The two nineteen-year-old cowboys needed time to mature on their own, too. I think, they were mature enough as individuals to stay together and start a new life together, if there wasn't homophobia in and out of their relationship....out there in society and in the memory of Ennis.

But given the fears, they had no choice.

Yes, and time is the true test of an enduring affection. :)

And yes, I do agree that so much happens between the ages of 19 and 23.  I feel that at the end of the 4-year separation, both had matured enough to have made a sweet life possible.  But as you say here, there were other considerations that got in the way...


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #25 on: Aug 11, 2009, 10:00 AM »
Yes, and time is the true test of an enduring affection. :)

And yes, I do agree that so much happens between the ages of 19 and 23.  I feel that at the end of the 4-year separation, both had matured enough to have made a sweet life possible.  But as you say here, there were other considerations that got in the way...


It's interesting to note, that by the reunion, the duty-minded Ennis had his fill of responsibility and was ready for some fun, while the foot-loose Jack had his fill of adventures and was happy to settle down, with the right person, who does not cut him up at every opportunity.

Jack recognized this at the riverside, and proposed the sweet life to Ennis. But Ennis let his fears get in the way.  :(
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #26 on: Aug 12, 2009, 07:03 AM »
It's interesting to note, that by the reunion, the duty-minded Ennis had his fill of responsibility and was ready for some fun, while the foot-loose Jack had his fill of adventures and was happy to settle down, with the right person, who does not cut him up at every opportunity.

Jack recognized this at the riverside, and proposed the sweet life to Ennis. But Ennis let his fears get in the way.  :(

I find the contrast you point out in the Reunion quite intriguing -- an ironic, if you would allow me to say so.  Very interesting.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #27 on: Aug 12, 2009, 09:19 AM »
I find the contrast you point out in the Reunion quite intriguing -- an ironic, if you would allow me to say so.  Very interesting.

Brokeback Mountain is a great movie, full of realistic reflections of life's irony and contradictions. Just my two cents.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline atalley

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #28 on: Aug 12, 2009, 04:24 PM »
 :h)  Andrew...I find your "2 cents" to always be "priceless".

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Three What If's
« Reply #29 on: Aug 12, 2009, 04:26 PM »
Thanks, atalley. You are very kind.  :^^)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.