Author Topic: Which is the Greater Sorrow?  (Read 84449 times)

Offline tpe

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Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« on: Mar 10, 2006, 12:26 PM »
Which is the greater sorrow? 

For Ennis to have realized in the end the meaning of a lost opportunity/life with Jack? 

Or for Jack to have died with the inner resignation that he and Ennis would share a sweet life together?

balchy28

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #1 on: Mar 10, 2006, 12:30 PM »
That's a really hard question. Erm I reckon Ennis to have realized in the end the meaning of a lost opportunity/life with Jack because he had to live all those years mourning for him and knowing he had lost him and regretting it so much. Basically the fact that he had to live the rest of his life without his soulmate in it, and knowing that they could have been together if Ennis had allowed it. Writing this is making me cry dammit  :'( Lauren x

Offline AnaisStefanie

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #2 on: Mar 10, 2006, 12:33 PM »
awww Lauren you made me cry :'( :'( :'( :'(. I agree I believe Jack always knew that Ennis loved him, the soul always knows the truth when it hears it/feels it so I would say Ennis being without Jack for the rest of his life is the most sorrow. Man, just the thought of him being without his soulmate, the person he's loved for such a large portion of his life is just heartbreaking.

Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #3 on: Mar 10, 2006, 12:35 PM »
Yes, I agree that Ennis perhaps ended up with the harder lot -- living a life of regret.  But Jack's sorrow and frustration must have been so unbearable...  True, a hard question to decide...

balchy28

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #4 on: Mar 10, 2006, 12:36 PM »
This topic is too sad! I'm sorry I made you cry AnaisStefanie! I agree with what you said :) tpe what do you think? Lauren x

Offline AnaisStefanie

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #5 on: Mar 10, 2006, 12:47 PM »
aww it's okay lauren, i cry just thinking about it. man, i just can't imagine being without a person i loved like that. just...man...it has to be the hardest thing ever. Never being able to touch them for the remander of your lifetime, must be so hard. when i think of this, i think of what was said in the book where Jack starts coming to Ennis in his dreams.
xxAnais

balchy28

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #6 on: Mar 10, 2006, 12:54 PM »
I can't wait to read the book, it should be here in 3-5 days apparantly! *hugs* i've been getting upset a lot more recently and it sucks. The scene where Ennis has tears in his eyes as he's looking at the shirts. God that gets me so bad  :'( it even get's my mum upset and she hasnt even seen the film! I've told her enough about it though lol. I agree, it must be so hard for Ennis to have lost the most special person in the world to him. I keep thinking of scenes I dont wanna be thinking about! I wish I could stop crying! Damn Ennis, why didn't he stay with the guy he loved?!  :'( Lauren x

Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #7 on: Mar 10, 2006, 02:31 PM »
Thanks  balchy28 and AnaisStefanie

You won't believe how much sleep I have lost thinking about this question.  Thinking about it can bring a rock to tears.

Offline Kindred

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #8 on: Mar 10, 2006, 02:53 PM »
Which is the greater sorrow? 

Having a love you know you will never have, or realizing a love too late to fulfill?  Each is a heavy cross to bear.

Jack needed more, but endured with his "infidelities."  He died resigned to the fact that it would not be "just like this, always."  How sad to realize that you will never have your true love.

Ennis perhaps thought he could endure with infrequent meetings, but in the end was left to live with nothing but the memory and possibly regrets.  His inaction was in part to protect them both from what he feared the most, the consequences of being found out.  And yet in the end, this is exactly the fate he believes has befallen Jack.  Twenty years wasted...

I don't think one is the greater, each is the greatest possible sorrow for themselves.
« Last Edit: Mar 10, 2006, 02:57 PM by Kindred »

Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #9 on: Mar 10, 2006, 03:01 PM »
Which is the greater sorrow? 

Having a love you know you will never have, or realizing a love too late to fulfill?  Each is a heavy cross to bear.

Jack needed more, but endured with his "infidelities."  He died resigned to the fact that it would not be "just like this, always."  How sad to realize that you will never have your true love.

Ennis perhaps thought he could endure with infrequent meetings, but in the end was left to live with nothing but the memory and possibly regrets.  His inaction was in part to protect them both from what he feared the most, the consequences of being found out.  And yet in the end, this is exactly the fate he believes has befallen Jack.  Twenty years wasted...

I don't think one is the greater, each is the greatest possible sorrow for themselves.

Yes, perhaps they are opposite sides of the same coin.

Offline jackie62

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #10 on: Mar 10, 2006, 03:03 PM »
Which is the greater sorrow? 

Having a love you know you will never have, or realizing a love too late to fulfill?  Each is a heavy cross to bear.

Jack needed more, but endured with his "infidelities."  He died resigned to the fact that it would not be "just like this, always."  How sad to realize that you will never have your true love.

Ennis perhaps thought he could endure with infrequent meetings, but in the end was left to live with nothing but the memory and possibly regrets.  His inaction was in part to protect them both from what he feared the most, the consequences of being found out.  And yet in the end, this is exactly the fate he believes has befallen Jack.  Twenty years wasted...




NOT JUST 20 YRS WASTED --- BUT ALSO IS LIVING HALF A LIFE REALLY LIVING??? HIS FEAR STOPPED THEM BEING HAPPY --- JACK'S LOSS HITS ME HARDEST BECAUSE OF HIM BEING OPEN TO TAKING THE RISK. I COULD NEVER HAVE KEPT TAKING THE NO'S FROM ENNIS. IT'S EASY TO SAY BUT A SHORT TIME OF REALLY LIVING ( WHICH COULD HAVE GONE ON ) OR A LIFETIME OF LIVING 2/3 WEEKS A YEAR ---- NO CONTEST. 

BUT I KNOW  ENNIS  REALLY DIDNT HAVE A CHOICE --- BUT I COULD SHAKE HIM.





Offline Kindred

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #11 on: Mar 10, 2006, 03:11 PM »
To me, its 20 years wasted only because of Jack's death.

Ennis was willing to live with what little they had, but in the end wound up having nothing.
Jack wanted more than they had, but was not able to get it.

If the reverse happened, meaning Ennis died rather than Jack, the tragedy is not as great.  Ennis was "content" with the relationship and would have died content.  Jack needed more from the relationship, and with Ennis' death would still have been wanting.

"Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

Offline dr bill

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #12 on: Mar 10, 2006, 03:26 PM »
I believe Jack died knowing that Ennis loved him although they did not "live" together...they lived together in each others' hearts.  What they shared was amazing even though Jack could not seem to get enough.  I think Ennis wanted more but allowed his fears to control his actions.  It is common for widows and widowers to die prematurely  when they were so deeply in love with their partner.  I believe that if Ennis never pursued another intimate relationship that he would suffer a broken heart from his loss of Jack.  They were not just lovers, they were soul mates...their connection went beyond the limits of time and space.  These words bring tears to my eyes.  Ennis had his dreams after Jack died. A big part of Ennis died when Jack died.  I am certain more than ever that I don't want to make the same decisions as Ennis.  I want to live life to its fullest.  Hang on everyone...I am redlining it to life!  Anyone want to join me?
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Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #13 on: Mar 10, 2006, 03:35 PM »
I believe Jack died knowing that Ennis loved him although they did not "live" together...they lived together in each others' hearts.  What they shared was amazing even though Jack could not seem to get enough.  I think Ennis wanted more but allowed his fears to control his actions.  It is common for widows and widowers to die prematurely  when they were so deeply in love with their partner.  I believe that if Ennis never pursued another intimate relationship that he would suffer a broken heart from his loss of Jack.  They were not just lovers, they were soul mates...their connection went beyond the limits of time and space.  These words bring tears to my eyes.  Ennis had his dreams after Jack died. A big part of Ennis died when Jack died.  I am certain more than ever that I don't want to make the same decisions as Ennis.  I want to live life to its fullest.  Hang on everyone...I am redlining it to life!  Anyone want to join me?

Thanks drbill for this point of view.

As for living life to its fullest, I had thought that I was on a downward slope of always being perpetually jaded.  BBM changed that.

Offline chrissy323

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #14 on: Mar 10, 2006, 05:50 PM »
aww it's okay lauren, i cry just thinking about it. man, i just can't imagine being without a person i loved like that. just...man...it has to be the hardest thing ever. Never being able to touch them for the remander of your lifetime, must be so hard. when i think of this, i think of what was said in the book where Jack starts coming to Ennis in his dreams.
xxAnais

I really liked that Jack started coming to Ennis in his dreams. It wasn't consicouzs thought on Ennis' part. I took some comfort in that because, even though it was only in a dream Ennis could still get some joy from it, even though upon waking there would probably be sorrow to realize it was only a dream.

"And he would wake sometimes in grief,sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets."

Sniff....
"No More Beans"

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JerBear418720

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #15 on: Mar 10, 2006, 06:48 PM »
Jack's death is the greater sorrow, because Ennis is at least physically alive.  Many here have faced challenges as big as Ennis', and they prevail.  There is hope and opportunity until the day that you draw your last breathe.

Ennis is tough and no quitter.  He was lucky to have had a GREAT LOVE, and in the end, I think he knew it.  We can never know what happens to him, but I choose to think he finds at least some satisfaction as the years pass and Jack's death is less of an open wound.

greenfrog

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #16 on: Mar 10, 2006, 06:54 PM »
Oh for goodness sake  :'( :'( :'( *Goes tissue hunting*

I'll post later.

Offline backtobrokeback

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #17 on: Mar 10, 2006, 07:09 PM »
Here - take my tissue.  I've composed myself enough to answer. 

 :'(  Almost

Although I have to agree that the sorrow is indeed the worst possible for each one of them - Ennis forever unable to say to Jack what he might eventually have been able to say, and Jack forever unable to have what he might one day have made real claim for..., I think Ennis is in a better place because he can reconcile his life, learn from his mistakes, take a small step toward growth as a human being.  Jack cannot resolve anything because his choices were made for him by the evil people who killed him.  He died, alone, unable to touch his love, unable to complete his life, or even live out his years as Ennis will, contemplating how to be a better person. 

CRAP!  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(  I need the tissue back NOW!

-btb
He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands. Make the pledge! Go Back to Brokeback whenever, however you can. Join the BTB Project.

Offline n061857

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #18 on: Mar 10, 2006, 11:07 PM »
In terms of sorrow caused by lost love, I think Ennis had a greater cross to bare.  Jack died knowing that Ennis loved him, even though his love was not on Jack's terms.  Jack could honestly look himself in the mirror and know that he had done everything he could to make the relationship work.

Ennis on the other hand has to live with the knowledge that he was the reason that they were not together.  It was noone's fault but his own.  That is a terrible burden.  Also, he is the one still alive, still suffering.

I think Jack's greatest suffering was his actual murder.  I don't know, if anyone here has been the victim of a violent crime,  but let me tell you it is very hard to look true evil in the eye.  We all like to believe in the goodness in people's souls.  To leave this earth at the hands of such ignorance and hatred is a horrific thing.  Jack's belief in mankind will never be restored.   :( :(  Nancy

Offline frenchcda

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #19 on: Mar 11, 2006, 02:54 AM »
this is what comes of people who listen to what the world expects of them and denied themselves what their hearts tells them! that to follow one's true calling from the heart no matter the outcome it couldn't never as bad than in being slaughtered by the world in being who they say you oughta be
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Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #20 on: Mar 12, 2006, 03:55 PM »
this is what comes of people who listen to what the world expects of them and denied themselves what their hearts tells them! that to follow one's true calling from the heart no matter the outcome it couldn't never as bad than in being slaughtered by the world in being who they say you oughta be

So true, frenchcda.

But you now make me think of another question: which is the greater tragedy?  To deny the heart by reason of the world's condemnation?  Or to be forced by the world to be what you are not?

Heart and the world.  Ideally, each one reaches out to the other.  We have a long way to go to attain the ideal...

Offline ethan

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #21 on: Mar 12, 2006, 04:39 PM »
Which is the greater sorrow? 

For Ennis to have realized in the end the meaning of a lost opportunity/life with Jack? 

Or for Jack to have died with the inner resignation that he and Ennis would share a sweet life together?

Great question and many great responses. As you put it, tpe, they are the opposite side of the same coin. I do think the regret is a greater sorrow. At least Jack has tried.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline jerasjr

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #22 on: Mar 12, 2006, 05:21 PM »
When he was alive, Jack had the greater sorrow because the reality of their relationship did not live up to his dreams. His sorrow while intense was shorter lived.  After Jack's death, Ennis had the greater sorrow because he was unable to bring Jack's dreams to reality, had he chosen to.  Ennis' sorrow would be more enduring, just think he would be in his early 60's now.
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Offline roguejedi

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #23 on: Mar 12, 2006, 06:01 PM »
well, their separation at the end is equally sorrowful for each of them...but when we take a step forward, according to my beliefs, Jaack has paid his dues already....he's free of his sorrow, pain, and debts on earth.   But for Ennis, his remaining days will eat at him until there's no more...until that day...when they are both re-united in another life.... :'(

Offline manila_rocks

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #24 on: Mar 12, 2006, 06:20 PM »
I am unsure if, after death, Jack will be able to continue pondering such complex matters.    Jack's life was filled with sadness and longing.  Ennis's felt longing and sadness but was not in touch with it in the same way as Jack.   Jack had more awareness of the psychological issues at play.

Do I not remember Jack having received a degree from an important American university?   Whereas Ennis only was able to achieve a year of high school from coins in a can.


Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #25 on: Mar 12, 2006, 06:27 PM »
Do I not remember Jack having received a degree from an important American university?   


If you are referring to Gyllenhaal, I think he did not finish his studies at Columbia in NYC because his parents gave in and made him pursue an acting career without finishing his degree (in Eastern Philosophy/Religions I believe).  If I am wrong here, I would gladly stand corrected...

Offline filazahies

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #26 on: Mar 12, 2006, 06:29 PM »
IMO the greater sorrow is for Ennis because he loved Jack and after finding the two shirts, after knowing that Jack had talked to his parents about Ennis and said to them he was going to take him to the ranch to live together(I mean Jack's parents were not stupid , they surely knew what their relationship was about), Ennis realised how much Jack loved him. But Jack has left forever and he will have to live the rest of his life keeping the same secret (his love for a man) and besides not having the opportunity of seeing that love again (which were the best moments in his existence, the ones he shared with Jack. He's gone... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

I hope you understand me. It's difficult to express all my thoughts in English. Sorry :-[

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #27 on: Mar 12, 2006, 08:37 PM »
This is a hard question to answer. It was just tragic for both of them. After my first viewing my thoughts were all about Ennis. Ennis having to live with nothing but those shirts, memories and regrets. How tormenting the "what if's" must be for him. I'd picture him staring at those shirts, talking to them, holding them and just dying a little more each time.

 During the next few viewings I identified with Jack's side of the relationship a lot. I know what it is to be the "idea person" and to be shut out and turned down. To express yourself and not get that in return holding on to "Maybe one day"; "Maybe this will be the time it happens". It kills you slowly. I know Jack went with other men, but he wanted Ennis. If his love wasn't deep and true he wouldn't have driven all that way year after year- it wasn't just for a coupla high altitude f's.

I agree that Jack knew Ennis loved him. Jack died without realizing his dream. Ennis has regrets, sorrow and dreams to contend with being the survivng partner. They both lived a half of a life instead of that sweet life and that in itself is tragic.
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Offline frenchcda

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #28 on: Mar 12, 2006, 09:05 PM »
But you now make me think of another question: which is the greater tragedy?  To deny the heart by reason of the world's condemnation?  Or to be forced by the world to be what you are not?

Heart and the world.  Ideally, each one reaches out to the other.  We have a long way to go to attain the ideal...
TPE: answer is the greater tragedy is the one we have come to bear in our hearts, it matters no more what the world plunders on us or for me the fact is that I can't undo the past and the consequences I now live with have become my tragedy, yet despite my griefs and losses, I have come to be thankfull and in return  in feeling an immense gratitude for what the ignorance of others have come to influence my life, for without all their misery I would have never learned what compassion, love and forgiveness is!
 Life gives you the chance to seek oneself  trough experiences bad and good, the goal is to have the ability to gain awareness and hope that at the end it all was worthed, I know that trough the words I read here and trough the eyes of loneliness and strangers it makes sense in my life.
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Offline dr bill

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #29 on: Mar 13, 2006, 12:17 AM »
I think you are correct Frenchcda.  I think the greatest tragedy is when we choose to suffer at the hands of the world rather than taking a chance of loving another.  Living life with "if" instead of "when" leads to a path of unhappiness.  What is the saying, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."  This is why I want to give without reservation, to love thoroughly, to receive openly and when life is over...think back about these times with bittersweet emotions...remembering all of the wonderful people I have met and come to love and feeling sad for the loves we have lost along the way.  I will always look back on this adventure with joy and encouragement...knowing I will never be alone in this great big world...since I will always be surrounded by the love of those I have come to know here.
« Last Edit: Mar 13, 2006, 01:09 AM by drbill »
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