Author Topic: Jack and the Draft  (Read 9455 times)

Offline johnboy

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Jack and the Draft
« on: Mar 24, 2006, 11:02 AM »
Just a thought...
Why was it only Jack mentioned the draft getting him, I assume this must be for Vietnam, wasnt Ennis just as likely to be called up to.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #1 on: Mar 24, 2006, 11:05 AM »
I think it was because Ennis was getting married and would have kids?  I assume that unmarried males were drafted first?

Offline bram

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #2 on: Mar 24, 2006, 11:42 AM »
I believe that you could get out of the draft if you had kids under a certain age. Maybe he anticipated getting Alma pregnant pretty much right away? I'm not really sure why.
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Offline siredevienne38

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #3 on: Mar 24, 2006, 01:40 PM »
another idea: Maybe, Ennis was not called due to a non-obvious health problem which he did not mention even to Jack because he avioded everathing that was not manly enough....

Offline bram

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #4 on: Mar 24, 2006, 01:43 PM »
another idea: Maybe, Ennis was not called due to a non-obvious health problem which he did not mention even to Jack because he avioded everathing that was not manly enough....

That would make sense.
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Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #5 on: Aug 04, 2006, 02:48 PM »
In the US in the 1960's there were two ways to get into the military:  enlist or be drafted.  Since neither Ennis or Jack mentioned the possibility (or desirability) of enlisting, they must have been worried about the draft.

At that time all men over the age of 18 had to register with Selective Services.  All men (MARRIED and single) aged 18-24 were eligible for the draft, but not every one was selected.

The draft was handled like a lottery.  The draftees were selected by their birthdays (month, day, year).  So in 1963, men born between 1939 and 1945 would have been eligible to be drafted.  Each day of those six years was given a number and then the number was written on balls (like the lottery) and loaded into a drum.  Then balls were selected at random and that established the sequence in which men were called for the draft.   

The lottery was done publicly and the selection date sequence would have been published (in newpapers) and official government publications and posted in US Post Offices.

In 1963, both Ennis and Jack would have known how close they were to being drafted.

If your date was selected by lottery you would receive a letter saying "Greetings," and have to report to the local draft board for a physical.

If you passed the physical, and there we no special circumstances (like married with children) then you were drafted.
« Last Edit: Aug 04, 2006, 03:10 PM by jesseanne21 »
[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline dalemidex

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #6 on: Aug 04, 2006, 03:47 PM »
Didn't the lottery-style draft for the Vietnam era start in 1969 or 1970?  In the early years of Vietnam, including 1963, I think there was still a lot of uncertainty compared to the lottery years.

Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #7 on: Aug 04, 2006, 04:11 PM »
Dalamidex -

I copied this from Wikipedia.

"The United States first employed a form of conscription during the War of 1812. The imposition of a draft during the American Civil War touched off the New York Draft Riots in July 1863. The Confederate States instituted conscription in 1862, and resistance was both widespread and violent, with ironic comparisons made between conscription and slavery[1]. Both sides permitted conscripts to hire substitutes. In the Union, many states and cities offered bounties and bonuses for enlistment. They also arranged to take credit against their quota for freed slaves who enlisted.

The World Wars

Conscription was next used after the United States entered World War I in 1917. The first peacetime conscription came with the Selective Service Act of 1940, which established the Selective Service System as an independent agency. The duration of service was originally twelve months. It was expanded to eighteen months in 1941. When the United States entered World War II, service was required until six months after the end of the war. The first draft number ever picked for World War II was 158, picked by a blindfolded Henry L. Stimson out of a goldfish bowl.

As manpower needs increased during World War II, draftees were inducted into the U.S. Marine Corps as well as the U.S. Army.

The Cold War and the Korean War

The wartime draft was extended by Congress, but it expired in 1947. In 1948 the draft was re-instated. It was expanded by the Universal Military Training and Service Act in 1951, in response to the manpower needs caused by the Korean War.

In the first and only instance of U.S. conscription during a major peacetime period, the draft continued on a more limited basis during the late 1950's and early 1960's. While a far fewer percentage of eligible males were conscripted compared to war periods, draftees by law served in the U.S. Army for two years. Elvis Presley and Willie Mays were two of the most famous people drafted during this period.

Vietnam War

There was some opposition to the draft even before the major U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. For example, Senator Barry Goldwater proposed ending the draft during his unsuccessful 1964 campaign as the Republican candidate for President. The large cohort of Baby Boomers who became eligible for military service that year also meant a steep increase in the number of exemptions and deferments, especially for college and graduate students. This was the source of considerable resentment among poor and working class young men, who could not afford a college education. ("If you have the dough, you don't have to go.")

As U.S. troop strength in Vietnam increased, more and more young men were drafted for service there and more and more of those still at home sought means of avoiding the draft. For those seeking a relatively safe alternative, service in the U.S. Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard was an option (provided one could meet the more stringent enlistment standards). Since only a handful of National Guard units were sent to Vietnam, enlistment in the Guard became a favored means of draft avoidance. Vocations to the ministry and the rabbinate soared, as divinity students were exempt from the draft. Doctors and draft board members found themselves being pressured by relatives or family friends to exempt potential draftees. The draft was unpopular both for its impact on those drafted and as a focal point for opposition to a controversial war. Conscription ended in 1973."

So, in 1963 Ennis and Jack were eligible for the draft.  The draft for Vietnam was increased/escalated in 1969.

[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline dalemidex

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #8 on: Aug 04, 2006, 04:28 PM »
Hi Jesseanne--

I'm sure they were eligible for the draft, but I think when the lottery came in in '69 it made it more clear if you were likely to be drafted or not.  In 1963 before they restored the lottery I think it was less certain that you'd be drafted or not. 

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #9 on: Aug 05, 2006, 01:03 PM »
Jack mentions it only as a possibility -"If the army don't get me" (God, I wish they spoke better English - I have a job posting bad grammar!!!) - and Ennis doesn't reply, "Or me," as he might have done if he was in the same position as Jack. He knew he was getting married and while you can't know you're going to get someone pregnant, the ss makes it clear that Alma was pregnant within a month, so maybe he assumed with a wife and new baby he's be safe from the draft. Don't see Ennis as a draft-avoider or burning his card. How ironic, though, that some who opposed the draft went to Merxico.....

Offline rane99

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #10 on: Aug 05, 2006, 11:39 PM »
Good question.  Why wasa Ennis afraid of getting drafted?  being uneducated as he was, according to th e short story, how could he have known that married men arent first to get drafted....
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Offline dalemidex

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #11 on: Aug 06, 2006, 08:52 AM »
Good question.  Why wasa Ennis afraid of getting drafted?  being uneducated as he was, according to th e short story, how could he have known that married men arent first to get drafted....


It was pretty well known how the draft tended to work.  You didn't need much of an education to be aware. 

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #12 on: Aug 06, 2006, 12:11 PM »
The anti-war protests, draft avoidance, card-burning etc were so well publicized you could hardly miss them even in Wyoming, I should think.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #13 on: Aug 08, 2006, 07:30 AM »
The anti-war protests, draft avoidance, card-burning etc were so well publicized you could hardly miss them even in Wyoming, I should think.

Ennis and Alma at least had a radio in their first home.  And in their later one in town, they had television. 

I think both Ennis and Jack were certainly aware of the war and how it could affect both of them.  It seems clear from the movie that Ennis didn't seem to have been as concerned as Jack about being drafted.  Is this part of his stoicism, or is it a foreknowledge that he was unlikely to be drafted?




Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #14 on: Aug 08, 2006, 01:11 PM »
Hi Jesseanne--

I'm sure they were eligible for the draft, but I think when the lottery came in in '69 it made it more clear if you were likely to be drafted or not.  In 1963 before they restored the lottery I think it was less certain that you'd be drafted or not. 

Hi, Dalemidex -

Sorry it took so long to respond to you, but I had to go back to my sources (my neighbor who served in Korea (1951-1952) and friend who served in Vietnam in 1970's) and ask more questions. 

Just a reminder - all men over the age of 18 had to register with Selective Services.  All men (MARRIED and single) aged 18-26 (1948-1968), and 18-24 (1968-1973) were eligible for the draft, but not every one was selected.  The U.S. discontinued the draft in 1973.

The main difference in the lottery draft (1969-1973) and the pre-lottery draft (1948-1968) were:

1.  The lotteries were publicly held. 
2.  ALL ELIGIBLE DATES were selected in LOTTERY days.  Since all men 18-24 were eligible then all dates in those six years were chosen (365 x 6). The lottery for each of those six years was done separately.  Each day of the year was was written on balls (like the lottery) and loaded into a drum.  Then balls were selected at random and that established the sequence in which men were called for the draft.  The first date pulled was the first date called for induction, the second date pulled was second date called, etc.

In pre-lottery days, days for each year were selected at RANDOM by the Selective Service.  Not all eligible dates were selected.  Out of the eligible dates (365 x 6 = 2,190), only a portion (determined by Selective Services needs ) were used. (In 1951, approximately 600 days were selected and 550,000+ men were inducted).  This was felt to be unfair at the time, which is why they came up with the lottery.

Also, pre-lottery, there was no sequence to the call to induction. So, if your birthdate was selected, you still wouldn't know if you would be drafted.

One thing remained the same, however, the selection dates would have been published (in newpapers and official government publications) and posted in US Post Offices.

In 1963, both Ennis and Jack would have known if their birthdates had been selected and if there was a chance that they would be called for induction.
[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #15 on: Aug 08, 2006, 01:25 PM »
The anti-war protests, draft avoidance, card-burning etc were so well publicized you could hardly miss them even in Wyoming, I should think.

Ennis and Alma at least had a radio in their first home.  And in their later one in town, they had television. 

I think both Ennis and Jack were certainly aware of the war and how it could affect both of them.  It seems clear from the movie that Ennis didn't seem to have been as concerned as Jack about being drafted.  Is this part of his stoicism, or is it a foreknowledge that he was unlikely to be drafted?

The anti-war protests didn't start until around 1966 or 1967.

In 1961, President Kennedy sent 400 American Green Beret "advisors" to Vietnam.  By late 1963 there were only 16,000 Us troops in Vietnam. 

The US troop build-up in Vietnam did not happen until after Lyndon Johnson became president (after Kennedy's assination in Novermber 1963).

This from Wikipedia:

"President Johnson appointed William Westmoreland to succeed Paul D. Harkins as commander of the U.S. Army in Vietnam in June, 1964. Troop strength under Westmoreland was to rise from 16,000 in 1964 to more than 500,000 when he left following the Tet Offensive in 1968. On July 27, 1964 5,000 additional U.S. military advisors were ordered to South Vietnam, bringing the total U.S. troop commitment to 21,000.

The massive escalation of the war from 1964 to 1968 was justified on the basis of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident on August 2-4, 1964, in which the Johnson Administration claimed that U.S. ships were attacked by the North Vietnamese. The accuracy of that claim is still hotly debated."
[they were] both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.   

(BBM short story)

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #16 on: Aug 08, 2006, 02:00 PM »
The anti-war protests, draft avoidance, card-burning etc were so well publicized you could hardly miss them even in Wyoming, I should think.

Ennis and Alma at least had a radio in their first home.  And in their later one in town, they had television. 

I think both Ennis and Jack were certainly aware of the war and how it could affect both of them.  It seems clear from the movie that Ennis didn't seem to have been as concerned as Jack about being drafted.  Is this part of his stoicism, or is it a foreknowledge that he was unlikely to be drafted?

The anti-war protests didn't start until around 1966 or 1967.

In 1961, President Kennedy sent 400 American Green Beret "advisors" to Vietnam.  By late 1963 there were only 16,000 Us troops in Vietnam. 

The US troop build-up in Vietnam did not happen until after Lyndon Johnson became president (after Kennedy's assination in Novermber 1963).

This from Wikipedia:

"President Johnson appointed William Westmoreland to succeed Paul D. Harkins as commander of the U.S. Army in Vietnam in June, 1964. Troop strength under Westmoreland was to rise from 16,000 in 1964 to more than 500,000 when he left following the Tet Offensive in 1968. On July 27, 1964 5,000 additional U.S. military advisors were ordered to South Vietnam, bringing the total U.S. troop commitment to 21,000.

The massive escalation of the war from 1964 to 1968 was justified on the basis of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident on August 2-4, 1964, in which the Johnson Administration claimed that U.S. ships were attacked by the North Vietnamese. The accuracy of that claim is still hotly debated."

Thanks, jesseanne21.  I was not referring to the anti-war protests in particular.  I was just referring to their knowledge of the war in general. That Ennis seemed to look unworried about being drafted either hints that he is just stoical (leave it up to fate) or that he had some reason to think that he would not be drafted. 



Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #17 on: Aug 08, 2006, 02:25 PM »
And when they talk about the army not wanting Jack on the motel scene it is 1967 - presumably by then he's been turned down as unfit and Ennis hasn't been called up at all.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #18 on: Aug 08, 2006, 02:42 PM »
It's also true that the US was involved in Vietnam from 1954 onwards; in 1961 de Gaulle warned Kennedy to pull out, saying it was a military and political quagmire.Public opinion about the war was divided as early the early 60s. By the time numbers of US troops in Vietnam reached 125,000, as they did in 1965, the mood had already turned against the war and the draft was resisted form at least 1964  onwards.By 1965 the US government was indicting men for violating the draft law.All this was pretty well known despite the fact that some sections of the media went on putting out pro-war propaganda until things changed after the Tet Offensive in 1968.

Offline rane99

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Re: Jack and the Draft
« Reply #19 on: Aug 13, 2006, 07:54 AM »
The anti-war protests, draft avoidance, card-burning etc were so well publicized you could hardly miss them even in Wyoming, I should think.
Just because you see them, does not mean you understand them. 
So's long as the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring