Author Topic: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler (Read 116197 times)

brokebackmountain · « **on:** Dec 18, 2005, 12:53 AM »

After watching the movie twice, I am still not sure how Jack died. Was he really murdered or died from the accident as described by his wife?

What is your take on this?

Ralph · « **Reply #1 on:** Dec 19, 2005, 06:52 PM »

I feel he died from the accident. But ennis was fearing it was possible that he could have been murdered, due to the story he told of his father and the murder earlier in the film.

Ocean Blue · « **Reply #2 on:** Dec 19, 2005, 07:47 PM »

I pondered with this answer myself. I think his wife knew how he died, she tries to conceal the information, but when she found out that Brokeback Mountain is a real place, a tear is shed and the truth exposed, I think he was murdered, she is trying perhaps, to be as gentle as she can with Enis...

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #3 on:** Dec 19, 2005, 09:08 PM »

Hey Ocean Blue and Ralph,

Thanks for stopping by and posting. After I saw the movie for the second time and paid a close attention to that few seconds, I think Jack was murdered (as much as I wanted to believe it was an accident).

Part of the reason why I really like this movie is that it leaves a lot of room for your own intepretation.

Lamar · « **Reply #4 on:** Dec 20, 2005, 10:16 PM »

I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.

1. When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live. The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2. There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3. I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4. I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack. I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5. I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her. Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off. That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called. This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been. She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.

So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #5 on:** Dec 21, 2005, 12:37 PM »

Quote from: Lamar on Dec 20, 2005, 10:16 PM

I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.

1. When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live. The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2. There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3. I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4. I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack. I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5. I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her. Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off. That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called. This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been. She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.

So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.

Hi Lamar, the more I think about it and also after reading your analysis, I am convinced that Jack was killed as the quick flash in the movie suggested. Thanks for your detailed insights.

ranchgal · « **Reply #6 on:** Dec 21, 2005, 04:56 PM »

I can believe that Jack was possibly murdered--however(haven't gotten to see the movie yet, but from the book) I doubt his father-in-law had much to do with it, as by that time, he was dead, and Lureen/Jack were running his business.
not that in fit of bad temper, Lureen couldn't have hired someone---or even more likely--some one connected to the neighboring rancher---one of his relatives that did not want the status quo disturbed. Jack would have been the cause therefore make it easy to blame him/take it out on him.

But I still like to think that is was an accident, tho maybe not exactly the one described by Lureen, but still accidental. There are lots of ways that could have happened.

raughtic · « **Reply #7 on:** Dec 27, 2005, 08:23 PM »

I think the point is that it could have been either way. I think that Ennis thinks that it was the tire-iron, but I also think that maybe he has to think that to justify things in his mind.

Krispera · « **Reply #8 on:** Dec 27, 2005, 08:37 PM »

I really think it is his father-in-law buddies too, they don't like eachother

Guns_goin_off · « **Reply #9 on:** Dec 29, 2005, 01:27 PM »

It is meant to be ambiguous. Ennis' "idea" of how Jack died, shows how dangerous he thought it was to come out (and why, ultimately, they could never be together). I'm getting choked up just thinking about it.

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #10 on:** Dec 29, 2005, 01:32 PM »

Quote from: Guns_goin_off on Dec 29, 2005, 01:27 PM

It is meant to be ambiguous. Ennis' "idea" of how Jack died, shows how dangerous he thought it was to come out (and why, ultimately, they could never be together). I'm getting choked up just thinking about it.

Welcome, guns_goin_off and thanks for your posting. It does indeed to be ambiguous. Many who have seen this movie are just left with questions. One thing is certain though - the love between Ennis and Jack.

I, for one, find these questions unsettling in a good way. These questions can really be answered based on the viewers like to their satisfaction so they can "rationalize" the reasons to such tragic story.

Again welcome and hope to read many other posts from you.

ranchgal · « **Reply #11 on:** Dec 29, 2005, 07:41 PM »

The more I read it, the more I feel it doesn't matter. He may well have been murdered, but just as easily could have died from an accident. It isn't really relvant to the story.
What is relvant is the fact that with Jack being gone---we are left with veiwing Ennis' complete sense of loss, and total devestation by it. It is really is about the Loss and the dealing with it that makes the strength of the depth of Ennis' feelings/reactions. Just my thoughts about it.

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #12 on:** Dec 29, 2005, 08:07 PM »

Quote from: ranchgal on Dec 29, 2005, 07:41 PM

The more I read it, the more I feel it doesn't matter. He may well have been murdered, but just as easily could have died from an accident. It isn't really relvant to the story.
What is relvant is the fact that with Jack being gone---we are left with veiwing Ennis' complete sense of loss, and total devestation by it. It is really is about the Loss and the dealing with it that makes the strength of the depth of Ennis' feelings/reactions. Just my thoughts about it.

I agree, ranchgal. Questions such as "are Jake and Ennis gay?," "Did Jack's wife know?" and "How did they attract each other?" don't really matter to the love between Ennis and Jake.

We are human and have the tendency to reason every possible things and rationalize the outcome. What makes us draw to the story is not just the true love between two people but also all the possibilities could have happened.

For many of us to accept the conclusion, we don't want to be left hanging and the beauty of this movie is - it is YOU who makes the intepretation. Thus, we are discussing and trying to "make sense."

After my 4th viewing, here is what I can say - maybe it was a flash in Ennis's mind that Jack was murdered, maybe Jack was really killed, or maybe Jack really died from the accident.

Coupled with Lureen's statement and Jack's father's reaction, I tend to believe that Jack was murdered (as much as I didn't want to think this is the case)

ranchgal · « **Reply #13 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 06:53 PM »

the last paragraph of the book (the last 2 really) tells me, that it doesn't matter, and Ennis didn't really know either.
SPOILER.....

"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."

And in his dreams the spoon Jack used to stir the camp food turns into a tire iron from time to time. He really didn't know either if Jack died or was killed, and going over it and dreaming about it, did help it get any clearer. Every thought about it was within his own head and sensibilities---and I think we are right---it doesn't matter---what matters is Jack is gone, and Ennis is still here, alone.

natalia · « **Reply #14 on:** Dec 30, 2005, 07:15 PM »

In the short story, there's a line near the end when Ennis is a Jack's house and Jack's dad is telling him that in recent times, he's talked about bring a new guy up to tend to the ranch and its basically "and now Ennis knew that it was the tire iron that had done him in"
It could be either though, and it doesn't really matter in the end... I think Ennis chose to reflect more on Jack's life with him than his death

cerulean · « **Reply #15 on:** Dec 31, 2005, 04:59 AM »

great to read all these different interpretations. i agree, though, that the cause of jack's death is irrelevant in the face of his absence from ennis' life. i think if the movie had meant to focus more on the cause of death, ennis would have been more emotional on the phone with lureen.

i still don't have a definite idea on what happened to jack, and hope to pick up on more details on this issue and many others in the film by rewatching it

but..i can't help but be discouraged by (and correct me if i'm wrong, i may be recalling this incorrectly) lureen's almost forced stoicity and matter-of-fact voice when explaining to ennis what had happened to jack, which seems to reveal that she couldn't bear to recount the truth to herself or anyone else. only her eyes seemed to betray the emotion. and at that moment, i think, ennis read what was truly behind her words. that's what i think anyway. :'( but it might change after i watch the film again. hm.

zetaphi708 · « **Reply #16 on:** Dec 31, 2005, 09:00 AM »

I think that Jack was murdered too.....my evidence to this fact is that in the preview there is a scene that is not in the finished print. The scene is of what appears to be 2 garage hands and one is holding a tire iron.

Krispera · « **Reply #17 on:** Dec 31, 2005, 11:14 AM »

Did you saw it was '' young '' Jack without a PORNSTACHE?(at the end of the movie he does have pornstache) I just realised that.. Maybe he is not dead after all(divorcing? ahh Lureen and Jack is married by the way?) BBM2? ahahh keep dreaming Krisp..

zetaphi708 · « **Reply #18 on:** Dec 31, 2005, 06:26 PM »

Today, when i saw the film for the second time, in the attack scene, Jack did have his moustache.

Krispera · « **Reply #19 on:** Dec 31, 2005, 11:39 PM »

Really? Oh well I saw in others threads (imbd *something like that) He looked younger and I didn't saw his pornstache.. brokebackmountain can you confirm it? you saw the movie 5times..

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #20 on:** Jan 01, 2006, 12:43 AM »

Quote from: Krispera on Dec 31, 2005, 11:14 AM

Did you saw it was '' young '' Jack without a PORNSTACHE?(at the end of the movie he does have pornstache) I just realised that.. Maybe he is not dead after all(divorcing? ahh Lureen and Jack is married by the way?) BBM2? ahahh keep dreaming Krisp..

As much as I love BBM, no BBM2 please.

It has all the possibilities ...since the audience did not really witness the crime scene if there has been one.

Funny enough, the thought that Jack didn't die came to my mind as well. One day...Jack might appear in front of Ennis's trailer and say to Ennis -- Ennis f***ing del Mar and then they live happily after. Just my wish.

ranchgal · « **Reply #21 on:** Jan 02, 2006, 12:07 AM »

Quote:but..i can't help but be discouraged by (and correct me if i'm wrong, i may be recalling this incorrectly) lureen's almost forced stoicity and matter-of-fact voice when explaining to ennis what had happened to jack, which seems to reveal that she couldn't bear to recount the truth to herself or anyone else. only her eyes seemed to betray the emotion. and at that moment, i think, ennis read what was truly behind her words. that's what i think anyway. Cry but it might change after i watch the film again. hm.<Quote>

You know I feel that way to. I am thinking she is lying, but not necessarily about Jack's dying by accident.
I think if she felt Jack was leaving her, for what ever reason, it would reflect on her and look like a failure--and she would lie or at least gloss over what ever did happen, and was happening between them, to keep her feelings away from her. Mad or embarrassed, she may have just been lying about her own feelings and Jacks failures, esp if she figured Ennis was someone she had never met, and had no reason to confide in, except that he was important to Jack, which may actually make her feelings more guarded. As in why should she make any effort to explain much to him.

I am going to have an awful lot of stuff to look for when I finally get to see this movie.
my goodness.

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #22 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 11:00 PM »

This matter was brouth to me from my 80 years old mom (we did not see the film together, after I discussed with her about this piece of art she went to see it, and she was very curious from the TV commercials anyways

). "don't you think either his wife and/or (vilain) father in law were involved"? Well, clever Lady, she brought something to my attention. Don't I have a nice mom? 80, catholic woman, who is bright enough to concentrate on the "plot" still not beeing very confortable about her only son beeing gay but being full of love and respect? Mummy, you're the best! I love you!

bnjmn3 · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 11:04 PM »

During their final meeting, Jack says his wife would kill him if she knew he was sneaking off to meet the ranch hand's "wife". But, I think with Lureen's delivery, she was reciting a made up account of Jack's death..to cover up a hate crime. (She was embarrassed that her husband was gay.) Jack was always taking risks meeting guys throughout the movie. I do not think Lureen---had she had a hand in Jack's murder---would have cried when she realized that Jack had loved Ennis on BBM. I don't know..but wasn't the short story BBM written around the time of the murder of Matthew Shepherd?? thanks

dirtbiker · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 11:12 PM »

I read somewhere in an interview (or possibly in a video clip) with Annie Proulx (or was it Ang Lee?) that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.

chameau · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 06, 2006, 11:54 PM »

Brokeback, the lost camel again.. wrote on your behalf... well did not meant to do it.

brokebackmountain · « **Reply #26 on:** Jan 07, 2006, 04:49 AM »

Quote from: chameau on Jan 06, 2006, 11:54 PM

Brokeback, the lost camel again.. wrote on your behalf... well did not meant to do it.

No problem. I guess the link I sent was not properly copied. Thanks for the posting and yes, your mom is the best. I am glad that she enjoys the movie.

Liam56 · « **Reply #27 on:** Jan 11, 2006, 03:02 AM »

Hello all---

This question has haunted me many times over and I am still struggling with it, but I offer a few comments.

In the beginning of the film there is some beautiful photography of the landscape, and there is a quick scene of three telephone polls. The arrangement of the polls with the cross beams, to me, at least, is evocative of the crucifixion scene of Jesus atop Calvary. I know, I may be stretching this, but in light of the murder of Matthew Shepherd in Wyoming, I wonder if this is a prefigurement to the violent death that one of the characters will meet, namely Jack. I can't take the credit for the connection to the crucifixion. A friend of mine made it prior to my seeing of the film. I used to be a priest so for me, it was a stark and obvious symbol.

Someone also mentioned that possibly Lureen's gross father arranged for the death of Jack by some thugs in order to save the family from the embarrassment of a gay spouse. That certainly is a possibility. However, in the short story by Annie Proulx, there is mention that the father-in-law died and Lureen inherited the business. This was prior to their final meeting in 1983. Maybe that might shed some light on the mystery.

There was also the scene in Mexico where we see Jack spending some time with hustlers. Recall that Ennis gets rather upset when he hears that Jack had been there and warns him that all the things there could get him killed. This might be another prefigurement to the way that Jack died, which was violently as the scene in the movie depicts.

As many of you have said, I suppose it doesn't matter in the end. Jack was gone and Ennis was faced with a terrible void for the love of his life was gone. And that final scene where Jack is alone in that trailer away from any contact with others, is, for me, truly tragic. But there is a beauty to it all. When Ennis says, "I swear," there is an attestation of deep love, and something that he will cherish to his grave.

Liam56

daveya26 · « **Reply #28 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 08:34 PM »

Hi

I thought that the movie being set in Wyoming was a reference to Matt Shephard but then found out the author writes about where she is from (in much the same way Stephen King writes about Maine or John Waters writes about Baltimore). Also, the story was written just prior to the murder of Matt Shephard.

The death of Jack is ambigious - is the murder scene Ennis's imagination or is it Lureen's thoughts or is it a real part of the movie?

I actually think it could be all three:

It feels like it's Ennis' imagination - in the short story, he describes the murder of the older guy when he was young as being done with a tyre iron, when he hears of Jack's death he 'realises' he was murdered with a tyre iron, so he's imagining both killings as being for the same reason by the same method.

Another point is that by Lureen's detatched, odd behaviour on the phone, it feels clear that she was giving Ennis a cover story. She knew what Jack got up to and she'd been hearing the name Ennis for 20 years, so she knew who Ennis was even though at first she seemed like she didnt. A friend of mine told me when he went to a friend's funeral in the mid 1980's, the friend had died of an AIDS-related illness but at the funeral the parents were telling people that their son had died of cancer. It's this thing of inventing a story to have a less shameful death - I think this was what Lureen was doing - the scene was what she realised had happened, but she couldnt say it.

I actually thought Jack was going to be beaten up when he and the Mexican lad walked into the darkness, it seemed to denote that Jack took risks, so yes, I do think Jack was murdered and this was a real part of the movie.

Toadily · « **Reply #29 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 08:49 PM »

Quote from: daveya26 on Jan 14, 2006, 08:34 PM

Hi

I thought that the movie being set in Wyoming was a reference to Matt Shephard but then found out the author writes about where she is from (in much the same way Stephen King writes about Maine or John Waters writes about Baltimore). Also, the story was written just prior to the murder of Matt Shephard.

The death of Jack is ambigious - is the murder scene Ennis's imagination or is it Lureen's thoughts or is it a real part of the movie?

I actually think it could be all three:

It feels like it's Ennis' imagination - in the short story, he describes the murder of the older guy when he was young as being done with a tyre iron, when he hears of Jack's death he 'realises' he was murdered with a tyre iron, so he's imagining both killings as being for the same reason by the same method.

Another point is that by Lureen's detatched, odd behaviour on the phone, it feels clear that she was giving Ennis a cover story. She knew what Jack got up to and she'd been hearing the name Ennis for 20 years, so she knew who Ennis was even though at first she seemed like she didnt. A friend of mine told me when he went to a friend's funeral in the mid 1980's, the friend had died of an AIDS-related illness but at the funeral the parents were telling people that their son had died of cancer. It's this thing of inventing a story to have a less shameful death - I think this was what Lureen was doing - the scene was what she realised had happened, but she couldnt say it.

I actually thought Jack was going to be beaten up when he and the Mexican lad walked into the darkness, it seemed to denote that Jack took risks, so yes, I do think Jack was murdered and this was a real part of the movie.

She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.

I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.