Author Topic: There was some open space....  (Read 41503 times)

Offline NoReins

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2006, 02:27 AM »
But then I think something different every time I read the story!

Yep, and that's the beauty of it.
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

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He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

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This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

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Offline proulxfan

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2006, 09:35 AM »
But then I think something different every time I read the story!

Yep, and that's the beauty of it.

Ain't it the truth!!!
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Offline Valandil Eluch

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2006, 08:25 PM »
I've wondered about these lines quite a bit myself.  I appreciate hearing what all of you think of them.  My first inclination was that it was in reference to what he knew and what he tried to believe about how Jack died--an accident v. murder.  I thought this because the previous paragraph mentions the spoon handle that could be used as a tire iron.  Now, I'm not so sure.  I think that maybe it's meant to emphasize how conflicted Ennis is, in many ways--over his sexuality, his love for Jack, how Jack died, his responsibility for events--and not just to indicate one specific thing.  But then I think something different every time I read the story!camom 

i agree i don't know what to think!!! i always have something new to think!!!
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline The Artifact

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #33 on: Jan 05, 2007, 12:05 PM »
I've wondered about these lines quite a bit myself.  I appreciate hearing what all of you think of them.  My first inclination was that it was in reference to what he knew and what he tried to believe about how Jack died--an accident v. murder.  I thought this because the previous paragraph mentions the spoon handle that could be used as a tire iron.  Now, I'm not so sure.  I think that maybe it's meant to emphasize how conflicted Ennis is, in many ways--over his sexuality, his love for Jack, how Jack died, his responsibility for events--and not just to indicate one specific thing.  But then I think something different every time I read the story!

camom 

I totally agree. It was the same for me, too. I thought it was obvious to refer these lines to the way of Jack's death. Because of the mention of tire iron in the dream, the opposition between accident and murder that the writer lets appear during the telephone call, etc... and generally beacause the main subject of these ending pages of book is the sadness for the death of Jack and I think it's natural to think to that in the first time. BTW I have to admit that the other explications of those lines are fascinating too.
"I've always had lots of dreams when I sleep. The dreams have always been about the future. The future in my dreams was always bright. A future brimming with hope and peace. So I've always loved to sleep."

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Offline HLJG

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #34 on: Jan 09, 2007, 07:39 AM »
I totally agree. It was the same for me, too. I thought it was obvious to refer these lines to the way of Jack's death. Because of the mention of tire iron in the dream, the opposition between accident and murder that the writer lets appear during the telephone call, etc... and generally beacause the main subject of these ending pages of book is the sadness for the death of Jack and I think it's natural to think to that in the first time. BTW I have to admit that the other explications of those lines are fascinating too.

I also agree. My first reading of the short story brought out Ennis' torment over what he knew (that Jack was killed) and what he 'tried to believe' (that jack's death was an 'accident'). What he 'knows' is so incredibly heart-wrenching that he 'wants to believe' in the 'accident' account, that lureen tells him.  But he 'knows' in his heart and mind what really happenned.  And it is killing him.  There's anger, there's guilt, there's shame--and so much more.

Upon reading this thread, though, I am enlightened by the other 'torments' that were eating away at Ennis.
I thank you all for sharing and expanding my thoughts and perceptions.
I will watch it yet again!
"We love who we love"

Offline smilesalot

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #35 on: Jan 13, 2007, 11:30 PM »
I think I'll stick my oar in here.

I love the phrase "open space" here because Ennis loves the open spaces, doesn't he? Both he and Jack, escaping to the open spaces where they could be free, where they could just...well....be. Yet, the open spaces they escaped too were also symptomatic of the closed spaces around them, in themselves, with their spouses, in society. A closed closet door at the end of the movie. Yet, maybe that closet was left a tiny bit open, right? Maybe just a crack and in that open space Ennis knew those shirts were there, he knew that Jack had loved him all along. And he HOPED, he BELIEVED, that Jack knew about Ennis' love, even before Ennis admitted and knew for himself. There was some open space in that closet door, and through it Ennis could see what he knew and what he believed.
We plant seeds that will flower as results in our lives, so best to remove the weeds of anger, avarice, envy and doubt, that peace and abundance may manifest for all. - Dorothy Day

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manhattangirl

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #36 on: Jan 15, 2007, 08:01 PM »
Hi,

This where I have a problem with "open space", this was Ennis's world, not that I think that he any particular love for open spaces,  he spent so much time hiding in himself.  After his divorce from Alma there was no responsibilities, he didn't have to be a participant in everyday life.  He got the odd jobs on ranches, staying to himself, alone,  but holding on to the relationship with Jack, "on his terms".

Jack, on the other hand, was tired of open space,  He challenged Ennis at every turn, "let's go to Mexico, let's get our own place. and lost.   Ennis's paranoia and unrelenting fear was a factor in  his conduct throughout the whole relationship.  In Proulx's story "there were some open space between what  he knew and what he tried to believed."   He knew it was just an accident that took his friend's life, but that same old fear kicks in, Jack was beaten to death with a tire iron, something he feared all those years would happen to him. 

May be I interperting this incorrectly,  I don't know.  One thing I do know Ennis's inner conflicts makes one of the most tragic figure in literature.

Manhattangirl

Offline BBBOY

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #37 on: Jan 15, 2007, 08:26 PM »
Manhattangirl, you are indeed right. Ennis Del Mar must be considered one of the most tragic characters ever created in literature.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline HLJG

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #38 on: Jan 21, 2008, 02:00 AM »
an allusion to what Jack's father had said about Jack talking about taking another guy up to Lightnin Flat.... Ennis knows this, but tries to believe that Jack remained faithful to him.  Fidelity is obviously an important issue for Ennis, as the last meeting scene shows.

This scene haunts me to no end.  I keep going back and forth as to whether I believe that Jack ever said that to his father.  But maybe it is because I know the deep hurt it caused Ennis to hear this-and to think that Jack would bring another guy up to the ranch and have a life with him.-and I don't want to believe that.

Then again, how would Mr Twist know of this other rancher guy? Unless he made it up, just to hurt Ennis?
He is so filled with anger and hatred-he did not go down for Jack's wedding, nor the birth of his grandson, nor the funeral.

-My first time watching the movie, I felt that Mr.Twist just wanted to say or do anything to inflict pain on Ennis.
Or perhaps, after the last time together, jack realized that maybe it was over between the 2 of them, and when he went up tro see his folks he mentioned that other guy. Maybe he was thinking out loud?
Any thoughts?
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #39 on: Jan 21, 2008, 12:21 PM »
I think Jack mentioned it to his father or maybe his mother and his father was in ear shot. I don't see how else OMT would have known about it. Jack could have been thinking out loud or maybe his father said something like "So you ever going to get that Ennis fellow to come up here or what?" and Jack may have said no he was going to bring someone else.

I'm certain that OMT said that to hurt Ennis. A while back someone mentioned that perhaps it was OMT's way of saying that if you had come up here maybe he'd be alive. (paraphrashing but that was the gist of it) and that made me think of the relationship between OMT and Jack. I'm split 90/10 on him. 90% of me thinks he was just an abusive bastard who couldn't give a crap about Jack. But then I started to think of why Jack bothered to go back at all- to see his mother? Perhaps. But why would Jack want to subject ennis to the old man? He had to know that if by some miracle he got Ennis up to the Twist ranch that his father would probably kill any hope of Ennis staying there.

I don't think that Jack would have ended it with Ennis- or I like to believe that because I am a J/E girl to the end. But maybe it was just wishful thinking on Jack's part- having had enough of settling so he figured what the hell, I may as well have some semblence of the dream. maybe after that last meeting he finally started to accept that it was never going to be like that with Ennis.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline HLJG

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #40 on: Jan 21, 2008, 09:55 PM »
Thanx for your insight.
 
"perhaps it was OMT's way of saying that if you had come up here maybe he'd be alive."
That packs a powerful punch.
When Mr Twist is talking and Ennis' head is hung--and Mrs. Twist places her hand on Ennis' shoulder and slowly squeezes it, I am just filled with so much emotion--it is just heart-wrenching. She is breaking the gut-wrenching tension and offering Ennis the chance to be close to Jack once more. :\'(

I agree with you on believing that Jack would never end things with Ennis. So much is left for you to just think on--which is one reason I love this story so much.

I also never thought about what would have happenned if they had settled down up on the Twist ranch, in terms of his father's acceptance of them, etc.
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Offline BBBOY

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #41 on: Jan 21, 2008, 10:03 PM »
Thanx for your insight.
 
"perhaps it was OMT's way of saying that if you had come up here maybe he'd be alive."
That packs a powerful punch.
When Mr Twist is talking and Ennis' head is hung--and Mrs. Twist places her hand on Ennis' shoulder and slowly squeezes it, I am just filled with so much emotion--it is just heart-wrenching. She is breaking the gut-wrenching tension and offering Ennis the chance to be close to Jack once more. :\'(

I agree with you on believing that Jack would never end things with Ennis. So much is left for you to just think on--which is one reason I love this story so much.

I also never thought about what would have happenned if they had settled down up on the Twist ranch, in terms of his father's acceptance of them, etc.

I think OMT would have turned his head and looked the other way, happy to have the help. He really was all about "his" ranch and how he fit into it.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #42 on: Jan 21, 2008, 10:10 PM »
Thanx for your insight.
 
"perhaps it was OMT's way of saying that if you had come up here maybe he'd be alive."
That packs a powerful punch.
When Mr Twist is talking and Ennis' head is hung--and Mrs. Twist places her hand on Ennis' shoulder and slowly squeezes it, I am just filled with so much emotion--it is just heart-wrenching. She is breaking the gut-wrenching tension and offering Ennis the chance to be close to Jack once more. :\'(

I agree with you on believing that Jack would never end things with Ennis. So much is left for you to just think on--which is one reason I love this story so much.

I also never thought about what would have happenned if they had settled down up on the Twist ranch, in terms of his father's acceptance of them, etc.

Her timing was perfect. Here OMT just told Ennis that Jack was at the very least thinking of moving up there with another man. And lets not forget this "But like most of Jack's ideas it never come to pass." Here Ennis got a double punch by hearing that Jack was possibly moving on from him and there is probably guilt on Ennis's part- in their last meeting Jack said "But you didn't want it....". Ennis knows that he is a part of the reason that at least some/one of Jack's ideas never came to be. And then at that moment Mama T offers him some privacy and I believe she knew about the shirts so as you said she led him to Jack. She let Ennis know that Jack loved him right from the start.  :\'(
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline BBBOY

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #43 on: Jan 21, 2008, 10:12 PM »
Her timing was perfect. at that moment Mama T offers him some privacy and I believe she knew about the shirts so as you said she led him to Jack. She let Ennis know that Jack loved him right from the start.  :\'(

I couldn't agree with you more hon. That scene was so powerful! It still tears me up.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #44 on: Jan 21, 2008, 10:15 PM »
I couldn't agree with you more hon. That scene was so powerful! It still tears me up.

Me too. All of this time and I still breakdown from the confrontation through the end (among many other places). I don't think I'll ever get over Ennis finding those shirts and all that that signifies.  :\'(
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline BBBOY

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #45 on: Jan 21, 2008, 10:20 PM »
Me too. All of this time and I still breakdown from the confrontation through the end (among many other places). I don't think I'll ever get over Ennis finding those shirts and all that that signifies.  :\'(

Darlin', the music still makes me lose it! My feelings for BBM are as strong today as they were 2 years ago.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline HLJG

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #46 on: Jan 22, 2008, 05:14 AM »
"The timing was perfect"
Another little change from the ss to the screenplay.
In the ss, OMT says that he 'knows where BBM is" and that Jack thought 'he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot'.  Mrs twist 'ignored this' and said that Jack used to come home every year and help his daddy on the ranch 'for a week'. Then she says "I kept his room like it was when he was a boy.,.,"

THEN, OMT angrily says "Ennis DelMar-- I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days wnd we'll lick this damn ranch into shape"--and about "this Spring he's got another one's--some ranch neighbour a his--he's goin a split up with his wife and come back here."
**So now he (Ennis) knew it had been the tire iron. He stood up and said 'you bet he'd like to see Jack's room"--and recalled Jack's story about his old man when Jack was 3 or 4 yrs old and had trouble going to the bathroom--and 'sprinkled' down the surroundings. His dad whipped him with a belt, and urinated on him and made him clean things up, wash his clothes, etc. Jack noticed that his father hadn't been 'dick-clipped'.
Ennis then went up to the bedroom.

In the screenplay
;
OMT says the "He used to say 'Ennis del Mar'" speech. Then the part about "bringing up another ranch neighbour to the ranch".
It is THEN that Mrs Twist slowly, gingerly but firm, and deliberately squeezes Ennis' shoulder and tells him about Jack's room--and he stands "wanting to be anywhere but in this kitchen with John Twist".
And  he goes upstairs.

By changing  the scene, albeit slightly, added more power to the heartache, in my opinion.
Also when Ennis returns downstairs with the rolled up shirts.
In the ss; It is very quick and cut & dried;
Ennis comes down. OMT refuses to let Jack's ashes go. Mrs Twist says "You come again".
And Ennis leaves, "passed the country cemetery.,., and didn't want to know Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain."
In the screenplay;
    Ennis comes downstairs and Mrs Twist "places the 2 shirts in a paper sack for Ennis."
OMT says that Jack's goin in the family plot, and Ennis nods.
Mrs Twist hands Ennis the sack, saying "You come back and see us again".
Ennis nods and says "Ma'am. Thank you for this".
*I love how the little added nuances to the ss make the scene all the more powerful.
And the way Ang Lee directed this scene is simply phenomenal.

 Neither the ss, nor the screenplay had Mrs. Twist, come up behind Ennis and squeeze his shoulder. That is a powerful few seconds--incredibly powerful for both Ennis and Mrs Twist to 'connect'.

In the movie, when Ennis comes downstairs and enters the room, carrying the shirts--the emotion is raw. OMT looks at him walk across the room. Mrs Twist sees him, sees that he has the shirts, half-smiles and gets a paper bag.
They stand and he hands the shirts to her slowly. She accepts them and gently puts them in the bag and hands it to him. It is almost as if she is letting him know of her acceptance of their relationship--and her love for Jack.  She had wanted him to find the shirts--she wanted him (the person that he so loved),
 to have them and cherish them.  She knew of their love for each other and approved or, at least, was accepting of it.  This speaks VOLUMES to me.

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Brach

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #47 on: Dec 18, 2008, 02:25 AM »
Quote
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it. 

Some think this refers to Ennis's confusion over the cause of Jack's death. But that doesn't seem to fit. Ennis only knew what he was told, namely, that Jack's death was an accident. And while he might have believed Jack was murdered, I doubt that he would try to believe Jack was murdered.

Some think it refers to Ennis's supposed confusion over his sexuality. This also seems unlikely. After years of enjoying sex with Jack and a jealous rage over "all them things I don't know", i.e, over Jack's relationships with other men, why would Ennis would fret over sexual labels?

I think it refers to Ennis's knowledge (via Jack's father) that Jack was already seeing another man when Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you." I assume Ennis tried to believe that if Jack had lived, Jack would not really have quit him, would not have brought the Childress ranch neighbor up to Lightning Flat, and Ennis and Jack would have somehow have worked things out.
 

Offline Romeo164

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #48 on: Dec 20, 2008, 01:17 AM »
Good point Brach. I'm not sure I understood what Annie meant in that prose but your explanation does make sense.
Your folks just called you Ennis?

Offline siredevienne38

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #49 on: Dec 20, 2008, 01:52 PM »
As to Jack's death, I think it was really an accident and nothing more. The murder is only a prodct of Ennis phantasy that has to do woth childhood experience -remember the scene when he was a boy at his father's hand and had to see the gay farmer couple that was killed.
Laureen on the phone reacts and sounds a little bit strange because she knows or at least feel the rivalry about Jack's love......
The old bastard Twist wants to humilate Ennis by telling about Jack's ideas to settle down with an other guy - if the relationship between father and son was really that bad - which I believe - the son would have never told the old about his ideas.... His mother Jack told everything about his active sex life as well his relationship with Ennis I suppose. To put her hand on his shoulder is probably the strongest scene of the whole movie - her gesture means something like "forget the old bastard's words - it is only provocation". To show Ennis the way up to Jack' s room should reassure him that Jack really loved him till his last days.

I also like the idea of changing the inside shirt to the outer side - the stronger one's shirt is always on the outside for protection reasons.- till his death it is Jack, who is more convinced of the magic of their relationship - afterwards it is Ennis who protects his lover and the unique love, he obvious gained strength & conviction despite his sadness after Jack's death. His life seems to be over, but he stays alive to keep the memory of Jack to live on.
His "Jack, I swear..." goes maybe like that ........I swear, I will always protect you ........., I will always love you................ if I were there you would not have died (you would be still alive) . I miss you so much ................. one day I will bring your ashes to BBM, etc.

vedrana

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #50 on: Dec 20, 2008, 05:22 PM »
As to Jack's death, I think it was really an accident and nothing more. The murder is only a prodct of Ennis phantasy that has to do woth childhood experience -remember the scene when he was a boy at his father's hand and had to see the gay farmer couple that was killed.
Laureen on the phone reacts and sounds a little bit strange because she knows or at least feel the rivalry about Jack's love......
The old bastard Twist wants to humilate Ennis by telling about Jack's ideas to settle down with an other guy - if the relationship between father and son was really that bad - which I believe - the son would have never told the old about his ideas.... His mother Jack told everything about his active sex life as well his relationship with Ennis I suppose. To put her hand on his shoulder is probably the strongest scene of the whole movie - her gesture means something like "forget the old bastard's words - it is only provocation". To show Ennis the way up to Jack' s room should reassure him that Jack really loved him till his last days.

I also like the idea of changing the inside shirt to the outer side - the stronger one's shirt is always on the outside for protection reasons.- till his death it is Jack, who is more convinced of the magic of their relationship - afterwards it is Ennis who protects his lover and the unique love, he obvious gained strength & conviction despite his sadness after Jack's death. His life seems to be over, but he stays alive to keep the memory of Jack to live on.
His "Jack, I swear..." goes maybe like that ........I swear, I will always protect you ........., I will always love you................ if I were there you would not have died (you would be still alive) . I miss you so much ................. one day I will bring your ashes to BBM, etc.


siredevienne38  ^f^


I think that John Twist obviously knew about Jack's plans because Jack told him. There's no other way how he could know about Ennis and Jack's neighbour in Texas. Why Jack said it in the first place, that's another story? There was a discusion on this. But his father knew the informations that only Jack could told him.

I can not imagine that Jack would talk with his mom about his "active sexual life" even if it's about his wife, not to mention sex with Ennis.  All that happened so many years ago in the rural backward society and there's no reasonable possibility to their open conversation on his sexual life. On the other hand, Jack's stories and plans about Ennis sure gave both of his parents pretty good idea what was going on. Of course mother was the understanding part, and I always liked her for giving Jack love and shelter (as much as she could in the cold surroundings of LF and old goat -John Twist).

Mr. Twist's hand on Ennis's shoulder was partially comforting for him and for us during those difficult moments in LF, but IMO  it's a surprising moment of Ennis finding 2 shirts in hidden place of Jack's wardrobe, that was the strongest scene in the movie. That scene let the whole story pass before our and Ennis's eyes and at that moment Ennis knew that Jack loved him all his life.  :\'(

Sorry to be a little harsh with my reply!  ::)

Brach

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #51 on: Dec 20, 2008, 06:30 PM »
As to Jack's death, I think it was really an accident and nothing more.

The SS narrative establishes that Jack's death was accidental:
Quote
Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED.


But Ennis's reaction upon hearing Lureen's account of the accident is that Jack was murdered:
Quote
No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron.

Yet he's not sure:
Quote
The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him. He didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack's throat and nobody to turn him over. Under the wind drone he heard steel slamming off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim.


Later, when Ennis learns from Jack's father that Jack had talked (right after the spring 1983 confrontation) about divorcing Lureen and moving back to the Lightning Flat ranch with a ranch neighbor from Texas, Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered:
Quote
So now he knew it had been the tire iron.

Regarding the flash in the film of Jack being beaten, that was not a news flash. According to the 2004 screenplay and Ang Lee's comments in an interview with Charlie Rose, it was just what flashed through Ennis's mind at the time.


The murder is only a prodct of Ennis phantasy that has to do woth childhood experience -remember the scene when he was a boy at his father's hand and had to see the gay farmer couple that was killed.

Quote
"There was these two old guys ranched together down home, Earl and Rich—Dad would pass a remark when he seen them. They was a joke even though they was pretty tough old birds. I was what, nine years old, and they found Earl dead in a irrigation ditch. They’d took a tire iron to him...Dad made sure I seen it. Took me to see it. Me and K.E. Dad laughed about it. Hell, for all I know he done the job."


We don't know what happened to Rich.


Laureen on the phone reacts and sounds a little bit strange because she knows or at least feel the rivalry about Jack's love......

Actress Anne Hathaway put a spin on Lureen's lines that made it sound  like while speaking with Ennis she suddenly realized he and Jack were lovers.

I found that interpretation implausible. How could Lureen believe Jack was in love with a man he saw only one or twice a year on brief fishing or hunting trips 1200 miles from Childress? If would be more plausible for her to believe that they were simply old friends.

Lureen didn't know (or suspect) anything more than what she said she knew:
Quote
“Jack used to mention you,” she said. “You’re the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that."


The old bastard Twist wants to humilate Ennis by telling about Jack's ideas to settle down with an other guy - if the relationship between father and son was really that bad - which I believe - the son would have never told the old about his ideas....

It's clear from the story that Jack and his father didn't get along. But I doubt that the author would be so devious as to have Jack's father recall how Jack used to talk about bringing up Ennis and then, in front of his wife, fabricate a tale about Jack talking about divorcing Lureen and bringing up a ranch neighbor.

Even before Ennis heard this from Jack's father, we already had hints that Jack was seeing another man ("the sparks flying up with their truths and lies"), that Jack had already been thinking of leaving Ennis ("I wish I knew out to quit you"), that Jack was resigned ("let be, let be") that his relationship with Ennis would never be what he wanted.
 
It was spring 1983 when Jack said, "I wish I knew how to quit you." That same spring day Jack made his annual weeklong visit to see the old man. Jack "used a come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas, and help his daddy on the ranch for a week, fix the gates and mow and all.” It was during that visit - within a week after Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you" - that Jack told his parents he was going to divorce Lureen and move back with a ranch neighbor of his from Texas to help run the ranch.

The old man resented that Jack came only once a year. He really needed Jack full time. He wanted him to live there full time and would not have objected to Jack bringing some other man to live there to help run the ranch.

Quote
The old man spoke angrily. “I can’t get no help out here. Jack used a say, ‘Ennis del Mar,’ he used a say, ‘I’m goin a bring him up here one a these days and we’ll lick this damn ranch into shape.’ He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin, and help me run this ranch and bring it up. Then this spring he’s got another one’s goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He’s goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass.”

The old man resented that Jack never followed through on his ideas to improve and help run the ranch.

He resented that Jack had left the Lightning Flat ranch and moved to Texas.
Quote
"He thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot.”

His mother Jack told everything about his active sex life as well his relationship with Ennis I suppose.

While mothers tend to figure these things out, I believe the prevailing policy between Jack and his parents was Don't ask, Don't tell. As for the shirts hidden in Jack's closet, "stiff with long suspension from a nail", I really doubt that Jack's mother knew anything about them, for if she had found them, she would surely have washed and ironed them and hung them neatly on wire hangers beside the "two pairs of jeans crease-ironed and folded neatly over wire hangers." And had Jack really told everything to his mother, then why did the shirts remain hidden?

Another point about the shirts. These are a token of Jack's first summer with Ennis.  They signify how much Jack loved Ennis from the beginning. But I don't think they signify his undying love for Ennis. Jack did not trot them out every time he made one of his annual weeklong visit his folks.  By the time Jack moved to Childress, he had more or less forgotten about the shirts. Otherwise, he would have taken them to his home in Childress.

To put her hand on his shoulder is probably the strongest scene of the whole movie - her gesture means something like "forget the old bastard's words - it is only provocation". To show Ennis the way up to Jack' s room should reassure him that Jack really loved him till his last days.

Quote
The old man spoke angrily. “I can’t get no help out here."

The old man merely resented that Jack never followed through on any of his ideas to move back home to improve and help run the ranch. The old man would not have objected to Jack moving back with another man (Ennis or anyone else) to build a cabin and help run the ranch.

His "Jack, I swear..." goes maybe like that ........I swear, I will always protect you ........., I will always love you................ if I were there you would not have died (you would be still alive) . I miss you so much ................. one day I will bring your ashes to BBM, etc.

Quote
“Jack, I swear—” he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.

Ennis isn't swearing to do anything. He's merely overcome with emotion and at a loss for words (note the hypen).

I doubt that the author would be so devious as to make the reader invent promises for Ennis to keep.
« Last Edit: Dec 20, 2008, 07:16 PM by Brach »

Offline rimasworld

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #52 on: Dec 21, 2008, 03:49 PM »
Speaking from experience, when someone dies suddenly like Jack did, it leaves a lot of questions in your mind and you find yourself wondering what if about many situations. I think that's what happened to Ennis. You even find yourself believing the person is still alive some where for just a few moments, even though your mind knows in reality that they are gone. I think the only thing Ennis was really sure of at the end was that he loved Jack and that Jack had loved him all along, going back to that first summer on Brokeback.

vedrana

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #53 on: Dec 21, 2008, 04:16 PM »
Speaking from experience, when someone dies suddenly like Jack did, it leaves a lot of questions in your mind and you find yourself wondering what if about many situations. I think that's what happened to Ennis. You even find yourself believing the person is still alive some where for just a few moments, even though your mind knows in reality that they are gone. I think the only thing Ennis was really sure of at the end was that he loved Jack and that Jack had loved him all along, going back to that first summer on Brokeback.

Good point! :)

Brach

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #54 on: Dec 21, 2008, 10:51 PM »
Speaking from experience, when someone dies suddenly like Jack did, it leaves a lot of questions in your mind and you find yourself wondering what if about many situations. I think that's what happened to Ennis. You even find yourself believing the person is still alive some where for just a few moments, even though your mind knows in reality that they are gone. I think the only thing Ennis was really sure of at the end was that he loved Jack and that Jack had loved him all along, going back to that first summer on Brokeback.

You are suggesting that Ennis knew Jack was dead but tried to believe he was still alive. I didn't see any evidence that Ennis tried to believe Jack was still alive. If Ennis still believed Jack was alive, then whose ashes was Ennis trying to collect from Jack's parents?

Diehard romantics are very certain that Jack loved Ennis to the end, but I don't think Ennis was so certain. When Jack told Ennis "I wish I knew how to quit you", Ennis had to suspect that Jack had already been thinking of leaving him. His suspicion was later confirmed when he learned that shortly after Jack had said "I wish I knew how to quit you", he told his folks that he was divorcing Lureen and moving back to the ranch with another man to build a place and help run the ranch. This is knowledge Ennis could not completely dismiss, even if he tried to believe Jack still loved him.

The shirts are evidence that Jack had loved Ennis from the beginning; not evidence that he would love him eternally.  Jack did not trot out the shirts every time he made one of his annual weeklong visit his folks.  Jack had more or less forgotten about the shirts. Otherwise, he would have kept them at his home in Childress.

Offline rimasworld

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #55 on: Dec 22, 2008, 12:59 AM »
You are suggesting that Ennis knew Jack was dead but tried to believe he was still alive. I didn't see any evidence that Ennis tried to believe Jack was still alive. If Ennis still believed Jack was alive, then whose ashes was Ennis trying to collect from Jack's parents?


Ennis knew Jack had died. Let me clarify what I was trying to say. My sister-in-law died suddenly a couple of years ago. She lived across the state from me so i didn't see her on a regular basis but we kept in touch by phone. There are times for a split second I think " I should call her and tell her about that, or what happened to me today" and then my mind snaps me back into reality and I remember she's gone from this world. That's what I meant when I said it might have been that way for Ennis. When someone is taken so suddenly especially one you don't see regularly, some times in your daily life for just a moment your mind believes they are still alive.
« Last Edit: Dec 22, 2008, 04:28 PM by chameau »

Brach

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #56 on: Dec 22, 2008, 03:27 AM »
Ennis knew Jack had died. Let me clarify what I was trying to say. My sister-in-law died suddenly a couple of years ago. She lived across the state from me so i didn't see her on a regular basis but we kept in touch by phone. There are times for a split second I think " I should call her and tell her about that, or what happened to me today" and then my mind snaps me back into reality and I remember she's gone from this world. That's what I meant when I said it might have been that way for Ennis. When someone is taken so suddenly especially one you don't see regularly, some times in your daily life for just a moment your mind believes they are still alive.

Yes. I understand what you are saying.

But in the story quotation we are analyzing
Quote
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it.
the operative words are TRIED TO BELIEVE.

You had a habit a calling a relative on a whim, and you may momentarily forget she cannot answer.

You might even wish that she were still alive so she could answer.

But you do not TRY TO BELIEVE that she is still alive or that she can answer.


Offline traveller

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #57 on: Feb 16, 2009, 05:44 PM »
I'm so glad to find this thread, I was wondering about that line from the minute I've read it. I thought this was one of the most beautiful lines in the story, and although I wasn't sure what had Annie meant by that "open spaces" and what Ennis wanted to believe, every time I read this line it made me feel this sadness that I couldn't explain.

I'm greatful to everyone who sent their thoughts here. I agree that the open space is a kind of a cognitive dissonance, but there is more than one explanation that seems reasonable to me: it could be that Ennis knew he loved Jack but tried to believe that he was straight. it could be that he tried to believe that Jack was faithful to him although he knew he wasn't Jack's only one (well at least not sexually). And I was just thinking, that maybe the open space was between what he knew - that Jack was dead, and what he tried/wanted to believe - that Jack is still somewhere out there, waiting for him... but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you gou've got to stand it.  :'(

I love last sentence of your post as it says what I feel (try to feel?).
Ennis knew Jack was dead but believed they both would be together again. He already knew that love like theirs never ends. He kept holding Jack in his heart every minute of his life and believed Jack did the same, wherever he actually was. Ennis was waiting to meet Jack and belived Jack was waiting to welcome him like many times before. He would be lost without his belief so Jack started to support Ennis appearing in his dreams.  To help keep the faith, to be with his best friend just for a while. The open space between "knew" and "try to believe" is for me the space for our human suspense and imperfection, space for our debts and fear.

Jack, I swear I will never let you go again.
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

vedrana

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #58 on: Feb 16, 2009, 06:05 PM »
I love last sentence of your post as it says what I feel (try to feel?).
Ennis knew Jack was dead but believed they both would be together again. He already knew that love like theirs never ends. He kept holding Jack in his heart every minute of his life and believed Jack did the same, wherever he actually was. Ennis was waiting to meet Jack and belived Jack was waiting to welcome him like many times before. He would be lost without his belief so Jack started to support Ennis appearing in his dreams.  To help keep the faith, to be with his best friend just for a while. The open space between "knew" and "try to believe" is for me the space for our human suspense and imperfection, space for our debts and fear.

Jack, I swear I will never let you go again.


Lovely words! Ennis and Jack met very rarely during those 17 years and most of their lives (sadly :\'( ) they've lived apart. And now when Jack is actually gone forever ( :\'( ), Ennis still lives the same life - waiting for those beautiful days that he is going to spend with his friend and lover, with his Jack F*&%ng Twist!

Jack will never come again to meet him on the mountain, so Ennis moved his mind and soul to an open space where reality and dreams become one. Where Jack IS actually part of his life. Poor Ennis! And poor my little darlin' Jack!  :\'(
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2009, 02:10 AM by loreen »

Offline traveller

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Re: There was some open space....
« Reply #59 on: Feb 16, 2009, 06:19 PM »
I love you said "an open space where reality and dreams become one". It's wonderfull.

"His friend and lover" - could you imagine loving and missing so desparately just a lover?

The point is, we both should be in this camp.