Author Topic: Jack Twist ending - spoiler  (Read 48393 times)

Offline torontoguy20

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Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« on: Jan 09, 2006, 09:57 PM »
At the end, lots of discussion about if Jack was really killed r if it was a figment of Ennis' imagination.
Anyway, I think that Jack's father in law had Jack killed. Remember the other couple they met at the dance? And the guy asked Jack to come down to the cabin? Wasn't that guy hired by Jack's father in law? I think he was hired to "get rid of Jack".


Offline chameau

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #1 on: Jan 09, 2006, 10:09 PM »
This question was brought to me by my 80 years old mom.  Yes she saw BBM.  I'm still wondering. Good point!  Is it Ennis imagination?  Is it the scenarists that just wanted to make this scene more dramatic (thank you, not very much appreciated)?  I discussed this matter with the friends that went to see BBM with me.  My best gay buddy (1st viewing) the father in law took a contract on him.  My best movie buddy (2nd viewing), not sure.  After wondering and wondering, and wondering... I would say Ennis imagination, he was so much traumatized when his dad took him to the murder scene of this gay cowboy when he was 9 years old.   ???
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Offline jimnick

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #2 on: Jan 09, 2006, 10:21 PM »
At the end, lots of discussion about if Jack was really killed r if it was a figment of Ennis' imagination.
Anyway, I think that Jack's father in law had Jack killed. Remember the other couple they met at the dance? And the guy asked Jack to come down to the cabin? Wasn't that guy hired by Jack's father in law? I think he was hired to "get rid of Jack".



Now that... that IS morbid.  I don't believe that I can stand the thought of someone killing Jack.  Even though Ennis thinks that it was "the tire iron" I can't go there.  I can't believe that Randall would do it, maybe the bastard father would, but I prefer to believe the Snow Queen...

Jim

Offline Krispera

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #3 on: Jan 09, 2006, 10:57 PM »
I'm sure it is fake ash in the urn  ;D jk..

I think it is Ennis imagination too.. like chameau said, he was so much traumatized when his dad took him to the murder scene. So maybe he thought the worst? (Well.. worst.. it is already sad but to die like this? it is worst)

Lureen lied, of course, she didn't tell the truth.. who knows? Ask Annie Proulx! I still don't have an idea of how he died.

Offline stationbbm

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #4 on: Jan 09, 2006, 11:08 PM »
No, no, no.  The film and the short story had all the foreshadowing you could ask for.  The death of Jack was NOT accidental, but in fact cold-hearted homphobic violence.  You hear Ennis describe the horrific time his father showed him this fellow who was dragged to his death.  You see Jack going to Mexico for a quick fix.  You see this fellow on the bench proposition him after the dance.  All of this signals that Jack struggles with not having the ability to remain so clinch-lipped like Ennis and takes the untimely risk of being less discreet with his sexuality in a 1970/1980s conservative Texas that would not tolerate such behavior...especially around the cowboy culture.  While it is officially an open-ended question on how Jack really dies, I find it very easy to fill in the blanks and see that Jack's lapse in judgment put in motion the tragic result.

stationbbm 

Offline torontoguy20

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #5 on: Jan 10, 2006, 04:06 AM »
It is UNFORTUNATE that you blame the victim here. It was not Jack's lapses in judgement that put in motion the tragic result. It was in fact the tolerated beliefs and actions of evil that created the environment for him to be murdered matter of factly.




While it is officially an open-ended question on how Jack really dies, I find it very easy to fill in the blanks and see that Jack's lapse in judgment put in motion the tragic result.

stationbbm 

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #6 on: Jan 10, 2006, 08:44 AM »
Although I myself believe that the film follows the short story's intention in making the true nature of Jack's end ambiguous/uncertain, I have read a number of critiques that emphatically state that as far as the film goes, Lureen lied to Ennis when she described the nature of Jack's death.

If you assume that Jack was indeed murdered (by who, I leave it up to you), then it is not far fetched to assume that Lureen knew that Jack was murdered (an autopsy, even back in the 1980s, would most certainly have removed any doubt.)  Hence, from this vantage point, it is not a big step to conclude that Lureen lied to Ennis during the conversation.

In the short story, there is no doubt that Ennis had decided for himself that Jack was murdered:


The old man spoke angrily. "I can't get no help out here. Jack used a say, 'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, 'I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.' He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin and help me run this ranch and bring it up. Then, this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass."

So now he knew it had been the tire iron.
He stood up, ...


But observe from the last line of the original story that a distinction is drawn between what Ennis knew and what he tried to believe:


There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.


Finally, let me note that the film is distinct from the original short story.  Perhaps the film went a bit further in suggesting certain things about Jack's death...
« Last Edit: Jan 10, 2006, 09:03 AM by tpe »

Offline jimnick

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #7 on: Jan 10, 2006, 09:59 AM »
I'm too naive to believe in murder, I guess.

Jim

Offline stationbbm

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #8 on: Jan 10, 2006, 11:41 AM »
It is UNFORTUNATE that you blame the victim here. It was not Jack's lapses in judgement that put in motion the tragic result. It was in fact the tolerated beliefs and actions of evil that created the environment for him to be murdered matter of factly.




While it is officially an open-ended question on how Jack really dies, I find it very easy to fill in the blanks and see that Jack's lapse in judgment put in motion the tragic result.

stationbbm 

I am thankful for your point, but land somewhere in the middle with both culture and Jack's choice of indiscretion contributing to the tragic ending.  Jack is given choices even within the untimely restrictive societal norms.  Said differently, if the company I work for has decided to pursue a growth strategy and I go into meetings talking about how this strategy will not work, has no merit, and doesn't deserve my support, I'm pretty much putting myself at risk for dismissal.  Jack knew good and well what boundaries would allow him to have this relationship and yet he was also aware of the very unfortunate risks that faced him in doing so.  Just another view...

stationbbm 

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #9 on: Jan 10, 2006, 01:20 PM »
At the end, lots of discussion about if Jack was really killed r if it was a figment of Ennis' imagination.
Anyway, I think that Jack's father in law had Jack killed. Remember the other couple they met at the dance? And the guy asked Jack to come down to the cabin? Wasn't that guy hired by Jack's father in law? I think he was hired to "get rid of Jack".

Hello torontoguy20, thanks for posting.

In the short story it states that Jack's father in law dies before May 1983. Jack then became more involved in the family business and made money of his own, then he starts growing a mustache!...so his FIL could not have had a hand in it!

Personally I have two views on Jacks death:

 In the short story...no one can tell!  It is open to your own imagination/interpretation. And before the movie came out,  many people argued about that point too!
When i first read it, i realised that Annie Proulx wanted the readers to think for themselves...and i personally believed that he had been "killed" but secretly hoped it was an accident.

 In the movie, and mainly because of the telephone scene between Lureen and Ennis...i know he was killed...
Did anyone have a hand in it? who knows? maybe the rancher's wife? maybe stupid homophobics? Maybe Lureen's family, or even her lover (because i don't believe that she was faithful to Jack).

When Lureen tells Ennis about the death, it's like she is reciting a well prepared story, she has absolutely no emotion, it just comes out...and it's only when Ennis starts talking about Brokeback Mountain that she starts reacting. She is sad, you can tell she knows exactly who he is and what BB meant to Jack.
Her husband died on a road somewhere! He is dead...full stop. that's her story and she sticks to it!

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Offline Krispera

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #10 on: Jan 10, 2006, 04:46 PM »


Her husband died on a road somewhere! He is dead...full stop. that's her story and she sticks to it!




OMG!! I just thought about the song '' He was a friend of mine '' . Good, frog!! I never thought about the movie and THIS song! He maybe not died from the tire, but maybe an accident with another car.. or something else on the road when he wanted to come see Ennis?

   
He was a friend of mine
He was a friend of mine
Every time I think about him now
Lord I just can't keep from cryin'
'Cause he was a friend of mine

He died on the road
He died on the road

He never had enough money
To pay his room or board
And he was a friend of mine

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #11 on: Jan 10, 2006, 05:00 PM »
OMG!! I just thought about the song '' He was a friend of mine '' . Good, frog!! I never thought about the movie and THIS song! He maybe not died from the tire, but maybe an accident with another car.. or something else on the road when he wanted to come see Ennis?

Well i don't know about that...what i meant was that he was dead and to save appearances the tire story was better than maybe admitting that he had been beaten up to death because he was gay. :)
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


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Offline brokebackmountain

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #12 on: Jan 14, 2006, 03:54 AM »
In the short story it states that Jack's father in law dies before May 1983. Jack then became more involved in the family business and made money of his own, then he starts growing a mustache!...so his FIL could not have had a hand in it!

Personally I have two views on Jacks death:

 In the short story...no one can tell!  It is open to your own imagination/interpretation. And before the movie came out,  many people argued about that point too!
When i first read it, i realised that Annie Proulx wanted the readers to think for themselves...and i personally believed that he had been "killed" but secretly hoped it was an accident.

 In the movie, and mainly because of the telephone scene between Lureen and Ennis...i know he was killed...
Did anyone have a hand in it? who knows? maybe the rancher's wife? maybe stupid homophobics? Maybe Lureen's family, or even her lover (because i don't believe that she was faithful to Jack).

When Lureen tells Ennis about the death, it's like she is reciting a well prepared story, she has absolutely no emotion, it just comes out...and it's only when Ennis starts talking about Brokeback Mountain that she starts reacting. She is sad, you can tell she knows exactly who he is and what BB meant to Jack.
Her husband died on a road somewhere! He is dead...full stop. that's her story and she sticks to it!

Pretty convincing explanation. Froggy, I am with you as much as I hate to think that Jack was murdered. By whom...nobody knows. It could also be that Jack committed suidcide (I know very unlikely) since no one is sure that the flashback was a reality. 
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Offline ChrisStone

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #13 on: Jan 19, 2006, 03:15 PM »
Reading the original short story this morning, the author makes it clear that the Tire Iron murder theory is Ennis', not Laureen's.  Furthermore, Laureen's father is long dead before Jack dies. In the story, Ennis mentions that Jack has some money now that his father-in-law has passed.

As for Laureen lying to Ennis about Jack's death, the author, before the conversation begins, writes that Laureen's voice is level.  To authors, level is synonymous with honest, and so there is no reason to believe that Jack's widow is misleading Ennis.

No matter how Jack passed, his departure was a bitter loss and lesson for Ennis.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #14 on: Jan 19, 2006, 03:26 PM »
Reading the original short story this morning, the author makes it clear that the Tire Iron murder theory is Ennis', not Laureen's.  Furthermore, Laureen's father is long dead before Jack dies. In the story, Ennis mentions that Jack has some money now that his father-in-law has passed.

As for Laureen lying to Ennis about Jack's death, the author, before the conversation begins, writes that Laureen's voice is level.  To authors, level is synonymous with honest, and so there is no reason to believe that Jack's widow is misleading Ennis.

No matter how Jack passed, his departure was a bitter loss and lesson for Ennis.

Welcome ChrisStone

From a previous post, I appended the passage in the story that shows that Ennis was personally convinced about Jack dying under the tire iron (this was after he hears from Jack's father of Jack's plans to divorce Lureen and move back with the Texas neighbor).  This is open to the interpretation that Ennis thought that Lureen had a hand in Jack's death.  But Proulx wisely leaves all this open/ambiguous.

Offline Tommy478

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #15 on: Feb 01, 2006, 12:28 PM »
When reading the story myself, I made the link between the car tire and a tire iron...perhaps too literal, but it's a useful way of quite powerfully suggesting Jack was killed by the iron rather than in the quite improbable circumstances described by Laureen.

The idea that Jack was murdered is horrific and, and the conspiratorial stance taken by Laureen in the film heightens this. Does anyone think what she said had the faint air of fobbing Ennis off? Of reducing Jack's death to some odd and freaskish accident?

I think the brutality of the murder is given added poignancy in the light of what happened to Matthew Shepherd - although the story was written before this, I think the film delves in to the rampaging and violent homophobia which killed Jack and which still exists today. The extent of the prejudice some people feel is still there, and not confined to 1983...that is why as many people as possible must watch this film.

I'm digressing terribly here, and probably not making much sense, but Jack's death does give the film some haunting relevance to today's society.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #16 on: Feb 01, 2006, 12:36 PM »
When reading the story myself, I made the link between the car tire and a tire iron...perhaps too literal, but it's a useful way of quite powerfully suggesting Jack was killed by the iron rather than in the quite improbable circumstances described by Laureen.

The idea that Jack was murdered is horrific and, and the conspiratorial stance taken by Laureen in the film heightens this. Does anyone think what she said had the faint air of fobbing Ennis off? Of reducing Jack's death to some odd and freaskish accident?

I think the brutality of the murder is given added poignancy in the light of what happened to Matthew Shepherd - although the story was written before this, I think the film delves in to the rampaging and violent homophobia which killed Jack and which still exists today. The extent of the prejudice some people feel is still there, and not confined to 1983...that is why as many people as possible must watch this film.

I'm digressing terribly here, and probably not making much sense, but Jack's death does give the film some haunting relevance to today's society.


Welcome Tommy478.  Yes, there are a number of posts about whether Lureen lied to Ennis and how much did Lureen know.  I think the concensus is that she was not telling the truth to Ennis. 

Although the movie makes it slightly ambiguous, I suspect most viewers come away with the firm belief that Jack was murdered.  And as Proulx said in an interview, BBM the story is indeed a study of homophobia -- both in other people and within oneself (as in the case of Ennis).

Offline hidesert

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #17 on: Feb 17, 2006, 12:15 AM »

For those who think that Jack was murdered, consider the other side:

1 - BBM is related through Ennis's eyes. People get stabbed, shot and beaten with various objects, but Ennis was obsessed with tire irons.  These are references to tire irons in the short story.

A - Ennis describes what happened to old Earl:

"They’d took a tire iron to him, spurred him up, drug him around by his dick until it pulled off, just bloody pulp. What the tire iron done looked like pieces a burned tomatoes all over him, nose tore down from skiddin on gravel.”

B - Ennis telling Jack what his Dad would do if he found them in bed:

"If he was alive and was to put his head in that door right now you bet he’d go get his tire iron."

C - Not believing Lureen's story:

"No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron."

D - After listening to Jack's dad:

"So now he knew it had been the tire iron."

E - Dreaming about Jack:

"The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron."


2 - Tires do explode - while driving or parked.  It's not uncommon and is a major safety concern for those who work with tires.


 

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #18 on: Feb 17, 2006, 07:08 AM »
hidesert,

Very good point. I wanted to post a similar observation earlier but never got around to it. The tire iron is mentioned five times in the short story, and I always felt that it was all in Ennis' mind, a violent image he carried from childhood that installed fear, that he would interpret as a consequence if ever he behaved like Earl. In c and d of your argument, we clearly see that Ennis has no basis on which to found his assumptions. Also I have yet to be convinced as to why would Lureen lie to Ennis since he was absolutely no threat to her - she never saw him, she would never meet him.(I always believed Lureen's version.)


Offline CakeSaint

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #19 on: Feb 17, 2006, 07:08 AM »
I think that to Ennis, who doesn't have the word "homophobia" at his disposal, the tire iron = homophobia.  That's how he was introduced to it, at that's how he refers to it in his head, so that's the recurring symbol for it in the story.

Offline hidesert

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #20 on: Feb 17, 2006, 02:46 PM »
Also I have yet to be convinced as to why would Lureen lie to Ennis since he was absolutely no threat to her - she never saw him, she would never meet him.(I always believed Lureen's version.)

My thoughts exactly sharve, Lureen had no reason to lie to Ennis.  Jack didn't keep his friendship with Ennis a secret and it wasn't unusual that Ennis's address was not lying around Jack's house, "Jack kept most a his friends’ addresses in his head."   Her "cold as snow" response was that  Lureen was still grieving - she lost the two important men in her life, her father and now Jack at 39 years of age.

Another "tire iron" quote I forgot to include shows his own confusion during his conversation with Lureen, "He didn’t know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack’s throat and nobody to turn him over. Under the wind drone he heard steel slamming off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim."   


I think that to Ennis, who doesn't have the word "homophobia" at his disposal, the tire iron = homophobia.  That's how he was introduced to it, at that's how he refers to it in his head, so that's the recurring symbol for it in the story.

Good point CakeSaint, it was the "symbol" in Ennis's head of what happened to anyone who was suspected of or acted in a homosexual manner.  Yes the word homophobia would have been as foreign to Ennis as the word "gay".

     

Offline zathycat

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #21 on: Feb 17, 2006, 03:09 PM »
Interesting discussion, and what's most interesting about this is that the same text in the story can have different connotations for the reader.

I believe that Lureen was lying, and that Jack was killed.  Maybe she didn't know how exactly, but I believe she knew why.  Her "cold as snow" voice, in the story, connotes to me that she wasn't grieving, but was, in fact, angry that she was talking to Ennis, who she probably did know was Jack's lover, and that she really wasn't sorry that he was killed.

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Offline hidesert

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #22 on: Feb 17, 2006, 03:54 PM »
Interesting discussion, and what's most interesting about this is that the same text in the story can have different connotations for the reader.

Exactly!  We interact with a story based on our own experiences and come up with our own interpretations of the meaning of events.  Analyzing movies and literature is very subjective. Few events are what they seem.

Reminds me of all of all the discussion that surrounded a little movie, "The Usual Suspects". 


     
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2006, 08:39 PM by hidesert »

Offline CakeSaint

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #23 on: Feb 17, 2006, 09:40 PM »
Interesting discussion, and what's most interesting about this is that the same text in the story can have different connotations for the reader.

I believe that Lureen was lying, and that Jack was killed.  Maybe she didn't know how exactly, but I believe she knew why.  Her "cold as snow" voice, in the story, connotes to me that she wasn't grieving, but was, in fact, angry that she was talking to Ennis, who she probably did know was Jack's lover, and that she really wasn't sorry that he was killed.


The way that Anne Hathaway plays this, in combination with Ang Lee's direction I'm sure, is brilliant.  Very open to interpretation.  At times she seems to be grieving about Jack's death, at others she seems like she might be grieving about the TRUTH about Jack, and that it may have gotten him killed.  When Ennis asks how Jack died, she gives a little sigh, delivers the speech in a flat voice, like lines that she's memorized.  That made me feel like it was a false story, a coverup.  But you could say she's detached, had fallen out of love, maybe didn't want the truth to be known because of how people would talk, even if she suspected/knew why Jack was killed.  Or if he was killed at all!  So many possible undercurrents to her conversation, and her delivery is what makes them all plausible. 

One more thing -- when Ennis lets her know what the "Brokeback Mountain" Jack was always talking about was, she looks like she might cry and lets out a tiny gasp.  I always thought this was because she just made the connection that Jack's favorite place was up in Wyoming, where he spent time with this man, whom he always took trips alone to see.  She realizes who Ennis is to Jack.  She may have known or suspected about Jack's extramarital affairs, but may not have suspected this one until that moment.  Of course, that's open to interpretation too. 
« Last Edit: Feb 19, 2006, 12:37 AM by CakeSaint »

Offline hidesert

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #24 on: Feb 18, 2006, 05:39 PM »
The way that Anne Hathaway plays this, in combination with Ang Lee's direction I'm sure, is brilliant.  Very open to interpretation.  At times she seems to be grieving about Jack's death, at others she seems like she might be grieving about the TRUTH about Jack, and that it may have gotten him killed.  When Ennis asks how Jack died, she seems gives a little sigh, delivers the speech in a flat voice, like lines that she's memorized.  That made me feel like it was a false story, a coverup.  But you could say she's detached, had fallen out of love, maybe didn't want the truth to be known because of how people would talk, even if she suspected/knew why Jack was killed.  Or if he was killed at all!  So many possible undercurrents to her conversation, and her delivery is what makes them all plausible. 

One more thing -- when Ennis lets her know what the "Brokeback Mountain" Jack was always talking about was, she looks like she might cry and lets out a tiny gasp.  I always thought this was because she just made the connection that Jack's favorite place was up in Wyoming, where he spent time with this man, whom he always took trips alone to see.  She realizes who Ennis is to Jack.  She may have known or suspected about Jack's extramarital affairs, but may not have suspected this one until that moment.  Of course, that's open to interpretation too. 

I agree, it's open to many interpretations.  After about twenty years of marriage, Lureen was comfortable with Jack.  She was running her father's business and Jack was her only salesman. Lureen had the accounting side of the business down, but farming is very conservative and I suspect that the locals would have rather done deals with a man (Jack) than a woman (Lureen).  And Lureen was left with a son with severe learning problems and Jack was the only parent to take any interest in him.  Her tears may have been for herself - what was she going to do. Again what we see on the screen is a combination of the scriptwriters', the director's and the actress's interpretation of that scene.

Interesting that in Ennis's phone conversation with Lureen, she mentions Jack's age and his drinking twice:

"It was a terrible thing. He was only thirty-nine years old.”

"I thought Brokeback Mountain was around where he grew up. But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there’s a whiskey spring.”

“Well, he said it was his place. I thought he meant to get drunk. Drink whiskey up there. He drank a lot.”



romeshvr

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #25 on: Feb 18, 2006, 08:16 PM »
Good posts HIDESERT and CAKESAINT.

The whole phone conversation between Ennis and Lureen is open to wide interpretations.  Did she or didn't she?  Only the author can tell us and I'm sure she doesn't want to talk about Brokeback Mountain at all.

HIDESERT, I also thought the mentioning of the age and his drinking was kind of out of place.  Unless, the author is giving us some subtle clues.  I thought drinking was mentioned to throw hint at maybe Jack was depressed?  Depression might tie in with what Jack said to Ennis in the last meeting, that he missed Ennis so much at times he hardly couldn't stand it.  As for the age, I can only think of one thing, actually it came to me as I am writing this post up.  If, a big IF, Jack didn't die because of the accident.  Suppose he killed himself or got murdered, i.e., tire iron???  Well, for me if someone killed themselves or was murdered I would think of the age of the person, I would say to myself, OMG, soo young etc etc.  But if someone were do die of a freak car accident, I would say or think, yikes, what a way to go.  Anyways, these are my interpretations and nothing is written in stone but something to think about.

romeshvr

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #26 on: Feb 18, 2006, 08:29 PM »
Did anyone notice this...

I know the tire iron scene goes by so quickly, but today on my 13th viewing I noticed something I never did.  Lureen states Jack was somewhere on a back road when the accident happend.  But today I noticed the road we see in the scene is not a road but a train track.  I'm not sure if anyone else noticed it but it thought it was kind of strange...

The only thing I could think of was, Ennis and Jack laid eyes on each other outside the trailer, which was close to the train track.  So I thought maybe Ang Lee was trying to give us a message like it began near the train track and it ended near the train track...

Let me know if anyone else spotted the train rack.

Offline Adolescence

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #27 on: Feb 18, 2006, 08:33 PM »
My idea was that Nureen found out and set things up. She looked awfully cold when she gave Ennis the news by the phone. Hell, she sounded like a newspaper ad. But Randall and Jack's father-in-law are also good options, I haven't thought about that.

Offline Jack_ME

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #28 on: Feb 20, 2006, 10:55 PM »

The discussion about how Jack truly died in this movie has been interesting, here on this board and on the other boards.

But one thing that I feel strongly about....and as it states in my sig....it's impossible to try to have these type of discussions if you mix the two media.

The movie is a movie and is has to be analyzed on the content contained within it. The short story is likewise the short story and has to be analyzed on it's own.

As an example (....at this point in time anyway...) no one would consider to argue a point of discrepancy in the short story by quoting what they found in the film. People would say  (or do tend to say...) well, surely the author of the story has the last word, if someone were to try to counter an interpretation of the story by quoting something from the movie, especially those elements of the movie which don't even appear in the short story!

But the reverse is just as flawed. The movie is an entity unto itself.

Although  Annie Proulx had the original idea for a story about two cowboy types in Wyoming who are in love and in a sexual relationship, and whose relationship stretches out over a 20 year time period until one of them dies, and she wrote a masterpiece of a short story, when the decision to translate that IDEA into a film, the screenplay writers first, then the director next, then the editor finally, each independently and all collaboratively, presented their interpretation of that original idea and elaborated on it as well. They did NOT film the short story in documentary form.

In the end the film is VERY CLOSE to the original short story which is great for those who first came to this film via that short story, but in the end, the film is an entity unto itself and can not be held hostage to the short story. If one wants to interpret the film, one must restrict one's observations and reasonings to that which is in the film and that which can be found or inferred from within the film.

And that includes eliminating the author of the original story as well! She is most certainly entitled to state what she wrote and what she meant by what she wrote. She is the author and owner of the short story. But she is not the author or owner of the film. And she is NOT the authority or last word on what is in the film, or what the film makers intended, or meant by any aspect of the film or it's characters's development. The film belongs to the film makers and it is they if anyone who can say what they presented, or intended to present in their film.

With that elaborate introductory comment I will say that if you have experienced repeated viewings of the film, and you actually WATCH the film (as opposed to enter into the story emotionally) I'm quite certain you will see that based on Lureen's performance, Lureen's story of Jack's death, Ennis's reaction, AND THE FILMMAKER'S insertion of the scenes of Jack's death, you will have no doubt that Jack was murdered by three men as it is shown in the film.

I experienced 7 viewings to date (which is few by some standards!) and it was only at the most recent viewing where I was able to stay somewhat emotionally separated from the story and characters, and literally WATCH the film that it became so clear to me.

Just to touch on a few facts which lend support to that interpretation I would start by referring to the so called "flashback" scene when Jack and Ennis are last together. I've never heard it said that that was anything BUT an actual memory Jack had of a real experience which the two had shared during their first Brokeback Summer. IE, it was real, it was NOT Jack's or Ennis's imagination being presented to us by the filmmakers.

Ennis's recounting of his traumatic experience from his youth is likewise imagery presented by the filmmakers which no one as far as I know, has ever suggested was simply a figment of Ennis's imagination, a nightmare, or a deep unspecified fear given a visual image by Ennis. No, we all accept it at face value. We see imagery about which Ennis is narrating and we believe we have been there too and seen the horrible sight Ennis has seen.

So, when in the telephone scene between Ennis and Lureen, and we are again presented with time displaced imagery, we are seeing what Lureen is saying, although she is using words which are telling a differnet tale. To me it is so clear that it is NOT Ennis's imagination we are envisioning, but Lureen's ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE about what happened to her husband, and even though she is mouthing a different story, THAT KNOWLEDGE is going through her mind. This is why she is so tight-lipped, so clipped, and why she begins to break down when she realizes that she is at last speaking with someone with whom SHE COULD HAVE TOLD THE TRUTH to, because he would have understood, and he would have felt her pain WITHOUT judging Jack and the tragedy of his death. The "tragic" but acceptable story of Jack's accidental death is presented out of rote habit, because it is easier to retell that gruesome story, and then automatically receive sympathy from the hearer, then it could ever be if she had told the truth. Typically, had she told the truth, she would have been subjected to the hearer's shock and/or condemnation of Jack's sexuality, and lots of questions,  instead of sympathy at the loss of her husband.

And she loved Jack probably as much at his death, as she did when she met him. Whatever has transpired over 20 years, she has had to deal with as well. We actually see her have to deal with that in one scene with the two customers exchanging condescending critical remarks about Jack, while she is sitting right there at the desk within hearing. To me that was an indication that over time, she learned that Jack was not admired, not respected, not capable, not a HERO in other's eyes. Likely that gradual awareness may have fostered some bitterness in her heart about her situation, and possibly outwardly to others about her marriage,  but had she been so uncaring, had she "known" about Jack, had she not still loved him, she would certainly have divorced him and gone her separate way. She would  not still have been married to him after 20 years at the time of his death. Her father owned the business, her father had the money, and her father would certainly take care of her and her child. She was not tied to Jack as another woman might have been, financially dependent, and with a child so forced by those circumstances to stay with a husband she had grown to hate, or simply not love. The fact that she is still married to him, states quite clearly that she still loved him at the time of his death.

And so her grief, her genuine sorrow, and her anger (which is a part of grief) still comes out as she once again mouths the public story of her loss even though started in an annoyed controlled clipped manner .

(In keeping with my view that Lureen still loved Jack, do not forget her facial expression from an earlier scene, barely containing her joy and pride in her husband, at the Thanksgiving dinner when Jack stands up to her father.That was about 1977 if I recall the date. She is certainly no bitter unloving wife at that point. If fact quite the contrary. She is pleased and proud that her husband stood up for HER, and took ownership of THEIR house and child even though it meant confronting her pompous and bully father. Likely her father had never made a secret of his dislike of Jack even to her. Likely she had had to endure her father criticizing and putting down HER husband. Here at last, her husband finally stood up to the pompous and disrespectful bully, which was no small feat. And just as an aside, likely her father never bad-mouthed Jack again, to him, or to Lureen or within Lureen's hearing.)

To get back to the imagery of Jack being killed, someone has posted a screen capture for those who don't believe it, but as Jack is being beat, we can quite clearly see that it is the Jack of  age 39, with a mustache. And although I can't quote you a minute by minute scene development sitting here at my keyboard,  I can say that while WATCHING the film (as I said, slightly detached from the emotionality of the characters), the inter-cutting of the beating scene is attached to Lureen's on-screen image as much as it is to Ennis's on-screen image in those scenes.


 In other words, we don't see Ennis, THEN see this scene, THEN see Ennis again, such that if it were only in his mind that sequence would make clear. (Of course one can say that Ang Lee purposefully didn't do that for intrigue and art) What we do see is Lureen's image on screen, THEN a cut to the beating of Jack, THEN a cut to Ennis in the phone booth. So the imagery of Jack's beating death is tied to the two of them, and that's because they both KNOW what happened in spite of the story Lureen flatly relates.

 
And to repeat myself from above, it is this sudden but belated awareness on Lureen's part that HERE was a person she COULD have told the truth to, AND SO COMMISERATED WITH, she had already told the story to, and simultaneously with realizing that, she also realized that HERE WAS HER COUNTERPART in Jack's life. Here she was speaking to someone who had known Jack LONGER than she had. And someone whom she had never met, even though she did know that Jack went to meet him several times a year for over 15 years. The place that Jack had talked of so dearly, the place where Jack wanted to have his ashes spread, and here she was speaking with the person that Jack spent that time with in that place. Jack wanted to have HALF his ashes, at a monument there in Texas where his Wife and Child lived, and the other half, on Brokeback Mountain which he loved WITH his love, she realizes. He didn't say, half here with you wife, and half with my parents. So it's obvious that Brokeback suddenly was HUGELY significant to Lureen, yet she had NOT been sure what it was, and even if it had actually been real. UNTIL Ennis tells her, No ma'am, we was herding sheep together up there in 1963.....BOING! Lureen sees it all clearly at last, this man on the phone and her husband ALSO had a 20 year relationship, just as she and Jack had had. This man on the phone is linked to Brokeback Mountain, a place so important to Jack that he wanted half his ashes to go there, while half stayed with her. This is a very important person to Jack, she realizes.

To me it is quite clear that Jack was murdered and Lureen knew that, and that Lureen still loved Jack and was experiencing genuine controlled angry bitter grief, which threatened to get away from her, until she finally had to end the call. If she hated Jack, she would hate this man she finally spoke with. If she hated Jack, and realized who this man was, she would NOT have sent him to Jack's parents for the ashes. The whole tight-lipped and painful telephone conversation was like that because she was trying to control herself, to stifle her grief. Initially she starts off.....Oh yeah...what happened...expecting to once again boringly retell the far fetched story of Jack's accidental death, and be sure to include all the details to cover all bases and not leave any room for questions......but then her connection to Ennis dawns on her and it becomes more and more difficult to continue and to control herself.

When she finally has to end the call, she tells Ennis to get in touch with Jack's parents. Has she hated Jack, or had she hated this man on the phone who was obviously important to Jack, she would never have said that. She would have terminated the call and left Ennis hanging. Instead she stays on the phone, even through Ennis's shocked silence.....Hello Hello.....she didn't hang up on him then she reached out to him by staying on the phone. There is no doubt that the whole even of Jack's death, the retelling of the story, the realization of just who she was speaking with, the realization that Brokeback was REAL that it was connected to this man....all that....is intense and overpowering her and she can barely keep it together to get off the phone. I have no doubt that Lureen broke down into real grieving sobs when she did get off the phone.

And as further evidence of her realization that Ennis was a special person to Jack, she tells him to get in touch with Jack's parents! Why would she imagine some casual, simply a friend, would want to get involved in that way. She knows he would consider this and probably do this, because she realizes how important he was to Jack, and how much he, Ennis, this man on the phone with her, is also shocked and grieved by Jack's death. For her to tell Ennis that is to say, go, get the other half of his ashes, and bring them to Brokeback.....you had half his life, I had half his life, we each will have half his ashes in the places that were important to each of us.


It's a marvelous movie. Beautiful and excruciatingly sad. After this scene with Lureen.....we enter into the scene with Jack's parents. We were shown Lureen's grief and sorrow at losing Jack, and then we are shown his parent's grief and sorrow, and like the anger that goes with Lureen's grief, Jack's father is filled with anger in his grief. We perceive the surface bitter man, spitting in his cup, saying Jack's ideas were all imagination, never coming to anything....he is bitter and resentful, but he is in grief and sorrow, and his way of showing that is to hold on to Jack's ashes. Not out of evil intent, but out of his own wish to keep something of his son. This last part is probably better left for another thread, but I do feel that Jack's father has been shortchanged as a complete negative. A man, a father, does have expectations of his son, especially his only son, and for whatever had happened in his son's life up to that point, his son was ONLY 39. So Jack's father could very well still had some hope of a future with Jack. Some hope that one of these days, Jack WOULD do what he had long said he would do, and come up and shake that farm into shape. Likely some of Jack's father's attitude was resentment TOWARD Ennis that, now, after Jack has died, you finally come here!

Well that's my take on this tragic death of Jack.

Jack in Maine


****FEB 28, 2006 LATER EDIT ADDED BY, JACK_ME, REGARDING THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS FROM THE ABOVE POST:

 In other words, we don't see Ennis, THEN see this scene, THEN see Ennis again, such that if it were only in his mind that sequence would make clear. (Of course one can say that Ang Lee purposefully didn't do that for intrigue and art) What we do see is Lureen's image on screen, THEN a cut to the beating of Jack, THEN a cut to Ennis in the phone booth. So the imagery of Jack's beating death is tied to the two of them, and that's because they both KNOW what happened in spite of the story Lureen flatly relates.

Regarding the above comments about the sequencing in the film, I WAS WRONG.

In viewing the film again since I'd made that post I see that in fact the screen imagery does cut to Ennis first, then to the beating, then back to Ennis and Lureen. I do admit that the murder scene coming between two images of Ennis weakens the argument for my point of view and  does tend to lend more support for the alternate theory, namely that it is only Ennis's fears given imagery and not reality, however,  personally I still feel as I posted, that what we see is what actually happened, and Lureen knows it factually and Ennis knows it instinctively.

Jack in Maine





« Last Edit: Feb 28, 2006, 09:44 AM by Jack_ME »
MY PHILOSOPHY DISCLAIMER: All my comments concern the MOVIE and the content and inferences obtained there. All interpretations, projections, speculations, and opinions about plot and characters are based SOLELY on the content of the movie. They can not be argued or debated by quoting the printed short story. A comparison of the two media is an interesting discussion but must be a separate discussion.

Offline ethan

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Re: Jack Twist ending - spoiler
« Reply #29 on: Feb 20, 2006, 11:08 PM »
Jack_ME, thank you very much for your wonderful analysis. I really enjoy reading it. It is interesting and insightful. Thanks again for making the effort for such details.

BBM is just amazing with all the details in one or two scenes. Anne and other cast members in the last two scenes carried the movie to a new height.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed