Author Topic: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?  (Read 19664 times)

Offline dalemidex

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In the confrontation scene at the lake, when Ennis breaks down after Jack lets loose, Jack hugs him and says "it's alright, it's alright. 

I've often thought it was an interesting parallel since those are the very same words Jack says to Ennis in the second night in the tent.

But I digress.  As Jack holds a collapsing Ennis, Ennis  says "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack".

Then we cut to the pivotal, bittersweet, tender, gut-wrenching, tear-jerking flashback scene.   It ends with Jack watching Ennis ride away so many summers ago, and then the contemporary Jack watching Ennis drive away in his old pickup.


But what happened in the real 1982 action to get us from the collapsing embrace to Ennis driving off?  What took place?  What was said?

Did Ennis simply pull away, compose himself, get into his truck and drive off?

Did either of them say anything?  Was any mention of November made? 

Did "I honestly can't stand this anymore, Jack"  evoke a comment from either of them, or was it simply ignored?


I've wondered about this for awhile, but I don't know that I really wanted to speculate on the answer until now.  I can only come up with painful scenarios that really twist the knife.  Fortunately most of my coworkers are in a seminar at the moment so they don't see me wiping the tears that this scene is bringing. 

Any thoughts on this?

Offline welshwitch

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The more I watch this scene, and the last few minutes in particular, the more I think that having ( as Alma did after the Thanksgiving scene) crossed boundaries they never had before, their future was problematic. Ennis had shown a sort of contempt for Jack in the " boys like you" remark and almost challenged him to say whatever he wanted in saying "Go ahead". So Jack talks about what they could have had  - past conditional tense.  I can't see what else there was to say; Jack says he wants to quit Ennis, Ennis says he can't bear it any more - wher do they go from there? Then the flashback shows what they had, BBM, but never moved on from, as Jack has said. I think they parted in silence, the silence of emotional exhaustion.

But both the story and the directions taken from it include the pwrds " nothing ended".

And love being what it is, had Jack lived and sent Ennis another message, I'm sure Ennis would have been there again in November - but I'm a romantic. i identify with Jack, and that's what I would do.

Offline Valandil Eluch

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 :'( :'( :'( welshwitch  you got me
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline stacp

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The more I watch this scene, and the last few minutes in particular, the more I think that having ( as Alma did after the Thanksgiving scene) crossed boundaries they never had before, their future was problematic. Ennis had shown a sort of contempt for Jack in the " boys like you" remark and almost challenged him to say whatever he wanted in saying "Go ahead". So Jack talks about what they could have had  - past conditional tense.  I can't see what else there was to say; Jack says he wants to quit Ennis, Ennis says he can't bear it any more - wher do they go from there? Then the flashback shows what they had, BBM, but never moved on from, as Jack has said. I think they parted in silence, the silence of emotional exhaustion.

But both the story and the directions taken from it include the pwrds " nothing ended".

And love being what it is, had Jack lived and sent Ennis another message, I'm sure Ennis would have been there again in November - but I'm a romantic. i identify with Jack, and that's what I would do.

I agree not much was said after they finally got up off of their knees.  But I do think something changed between them.  I think Jack maybe understood for the first time how much Ennis sacrificed to be with Jack and to love Jack ("I'm nobody, nowhere because of you.").  I think Ennis also realized just how much he loved Jack and how much living apart from him was destroying them.  I like to think this was a turning point for Ennis, although he may not have been able to verbalize it at that moment.  He broke up with Cassie thereafter, and sent that postcard about November.  I don't think either of them ended anything, regardless of the "other fella" Jack talked to his dad about.  I like to think if Jack hadn't have died, he would've met Ennis in November in a heartbeat.

Offline donnaread

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I think you kind of have to fill in the blanks with the short story version.  They sort of 'made up'..."nothing ended", but remember, even though Ennis said he "...can't stand this anymore, Jack", ENNIS is the one who sent the post card sayiing that it looked like November was still the best he could do for them to get together again.  And in spite of Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you!", I can't see him not meeting Ennis in November.  Of course there's the fact of what Jack told his dad about coming up there with another guy.  It breaks my heart to think that Jack was trying to move on, but maybe he was.  But I still think he would have met Ennis in November, even if only to tell him that he (Jack) couldn't stand it anymore.  Maybe he would have given Ennis an ultimatum.  Sometimes I think he should have, but then again, Jack couldn't quit Ennis.  The whole thing just keeps going in circles in my head...their last arguement... Ennis sending the post card...Jack's dad telling Ennis about the other guy... :-\.

Damn, I wish whe had all the answers! :'(  Then again, what would we talk about?

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Offline ande_nem

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In a way I think it's good that we don't have all the answers, because a) it's good to discuss what we think would have happened and b) we might not have liked the answers. This way, everyone can come up with their opinions as to what would have happened, and to make Brokeback Mountain whatever they want it to be. And I think that's what the beauty of the story is  :)
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Offline tpe

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I have always assumed that nothing was said or exchanged between the final embrace and Ennis driving off.

In my mind's eye, I had always envisioned Ennis simply breaking away from Jack's embrace, taking off on his truck, and driving away -- still in tears.  I had always placed the succeeding Cassie scene as immediately after, when you still see Ennis pretty much in tears (also, because Cassie apparently could not get hold of Ennis until then, since Ennis was with Jack in the mountains).

All throughout this, Jack must have remembered the dozy embrace.  It is truly a magnificent juxtaposition.  One of the glories of the movie -- where the screenplay actually improves on the short story, in my opinion.

The explicit juxtaposition of these two scenes is the most beautiful and horrendous of all the parallel pairings -- a device used so many times in the movie.

In between the two embraces stretches out a vast, immeasurable, spiritual void.

The only thing worthy of that magnificent and vast emptiness is SILENCE itself.



Offline shieldmaid

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I have always assumed that nothing was said or exchanged between the final embrace and Ennis driving off.

In my mind's eye, I had always envisioned Ennis simply breaking away from Jack's embrace, taking off on his truck, and driving away -- still in tears.  I had always placed the succeeding Cassie scene as immediately after, when you still see Ennis pretty much in tears (also, because Cassie apparently could not get hold of Ennis until then, since Ennis was with Jack in the mountains).

All throughout this, Jack must have remembered the dozy embrace.  It is truly a magnificent juxtaposition.  One of the glories of the movie -- where the screenplay actually improves on the short story, in my opinion.

The explicit juxtaposition of these two scenes is the most beautiful and horrendous of all the parallel pairings -- a device used so many times in the movie.

In between the two embraces stretches out a vast, immeasurable, spiritual void.

The only thing worthy of that magnificent and vast emptiness is SILENCE itself.




Wow, tpe, that was beautifully said.  I had never made the connection that Cassie couldn't get a hold of Ennis because he was with Jack, but that makes perfect sense.  He has let go of Cassie but can't ever let go of Jack.  At the same time, Jack remembers what he has always loved about Ennis--what, in my opinion, would have kept him coming back in spite of everything else.  :(
some open space between

Offline NoReins

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I reckon they would have held each other for a while, not talking other than maybe a few comforting words, and then just got up and headed back to their pickups. In the short story it says that things were torqued back to the way they had been, nothing ended, nothing resolved, nothing begun - we see that when, despite his angry words, Jack goes to comfort Ennis just like he always had. Nothing had really changed, other than a few things being out in the open. Although there is pain and weariness in Jack's face as he watches Ennis drive away, there is still love there too. The flashback only enhances that - reinforcing how much he's loved Ennis all along.
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This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

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Offline welshwitch

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And there's no answer in the story because there's no answer in reality. the truth lies in the human heart, and that's too deep for any of us to plumb.

Offline tpe

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Thanks shieldmaid.  He keeps on coming back -- this is our confession of faith.

NoReins, yes.  Even in that last look, there is still that 'love that will never grow old'.

welshwitch, there are indeed things of the heart too deep to plumb.  In such cases, there are no easy answers.  Only faith.


Offline karen1129

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You know, since I've never fully understood what "I just can't takes this anymore Jack" meant,
I don't know what to think of what happened afterwards. 
Probably just both got in their trucks and drove off.
Ignoring all that was said to each other in the blame game they had going.

Offline ande_nem

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Considering that's the last time they see each other, it's really upsetting  :'(
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Offline jacks_key

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I have always assumed that nothing was said or exchanged between the final embrace and Ennis driving off.

In my mind's eye, I had always envisioned Ennis simply breaking away from Jack's embrace, taking off on his truck, and driving away -- still in tears.  I had always placed the succeeding Cassie scene as immediately after, when you still see Ennis pretty much in tears (also, because Cassie apparently could not get hold of Ennis until then, since Ennis was with Jack in the mountains).

All throughout this, Jack must have remembered the dozy embrace.  It is truly a magnificent juxtaposition.  One of the glories of the movie -- where the screenplay actually improves on the short story, in my opinion.

The explicit juxtaposition of these two scenes is the most beautiful and horrendous of all the parallel pairings -- a device used so many times in the movie.

In between the two embraces stretches out a vast, immeasurable, spiritual void.

The only thing worthy of that magnificent and vast emptiness is SILENCE itself.




Another old topic I'm just now discovering...

Thomas, as always, you said it better than I ever could.  I, too, believe Ennis just got up, walked to his truck and left Jack standing there.  Nothing was resolved...and Jack would have met Ennis in November as planned.
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Offline tpe

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Thanks, jacks_key , for bringing to life this old discussion.

It was probably so intense that any words exchanged between them at that moment would have been totally inadequate.

The status quo certainly meant meeting in November.  Randall, of course, complicates the picture, but I personally can't see Jack not seeing Ennis one more time.


Offline JT

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I would like to think that after they embraced, they slowly got up and Jack, arm still over Ennis's shoulder still comforting him, walk Ennis to his (Ennis) truck before going to his own truck.  No words exchanged.  Ennis, still crying, drove off and for once look at Jack on his rearview mirror.  Jack just stood there until Ennis is out of sight.  If Jack did see Ennis one more time, Jack will give Ennis an ultimatum.

Offline tpe

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I would like to think that after they embraced, they slowly got up and Jack, arm still over Ennis's shoulder still comforting him, walk Ennis to his (Ennis) truck before going to his own truck.  No words exchanged.  Ennis, still crying, drove off and for once look at Jack on his rearview mirror.  Jack just stood there until Ennis is out of sight.  If Jack did see Ennis one more time, Jack will give Ennis an ultimatum.

Yes, I did feel that Ennis drove away still crying. 

OT: Even in the scene following (with Cassie), he looks like he was still crying.  I know that scene is not necessarily immediately after the quarrel, but it certainly looked like Ennis had been crying all day...


Offline JT

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Ennis did look very moody and upset in that scene with Cassie, but I don't think it immediately followed the quarrel with Jack.  I think it might even be a few weeks afterward.  Sorry,  *o)

Offline aintfoolin

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I don't think to much more was said or done after this ordeal. I agree that they got up, walked back to their trucks with maybe some tentative "I'm sorrys" uttered and went their seperate ways. Ennis probably still feeling guilt and shame from his "exposure"  by Jack and as usal left to think, ponder and analyze each and every thing that was said and done only to realize that nothing had really changed as far as his feelings for Jack went. But with one major acknowledement.... That he would have to make a major decision and soon. I feel he would have givin Jack what he wanted at Pine Creek where they were to meet again had Jack lived. I think he weighed everything against his feelings of love ,coupled with the years invested in the affair and came to the conclusion that Jack was right and it was worth a shot, but knowing Ennis there would have still been "comprimisies" that had to be worked into it. I think he would've caved though.Just my opinion.
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Offline tpe

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Thanks JT and aintfoolin.  :)

I do think there was not that much they could have said to each other after this scene.  It was a violent torquing back to the status quo.  They probably didn't dare say anything further.

 

Offline jackster

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There are two other “good-bye” scenes we see, the end of the summer on Brokeback in ’63 when they separate at Jack’s truck, and the scene when Jack heads back (to Mexico) after rushing to Ennis after the divorce. Both of these good-byes are emotionally tense, abrupt, akward, and painful. My feeling is that this departure would be the virtually same. A kind of shuffling Ennis looking at the ground and a very pained Jack desperately hoping for something more. Do any of you see a real similarity in Jack's facial expressions while standing beside his pickup truck in 1963 as Ennis walks away, and then in 1982 as Ennis drives away? The two looks are almost the same, seperated by age. Maybe another bookend.

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Offline tpe

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There are two other “good-bye” scenes we see, the end of the summer on Brokeback in ’63 when they separate at Jack’s truck, and the scene when Jack heads back (to Mexico) after rushing to Ennis after the divorce. Both of these good-byes are emotionally tense, abrupt, akward, and painful. My feeling is that this departure would be the virtually same. A kind of shuffling Ennis looking at the ground and a very pained Jack desperately hoping for something more. Do any of you see a real similarity in Jack's facial expressions while standing beside his pickup truck in 1963 as Ennis walks away, and then in 1982 as Ennis drives away? The two looks are almost the same, seperated by age. Maybe another bookend.

jackster

I agree.  The only subtle difference in my mind is that in the last one, Jack was at the end of his tether, and Ennis was at the breaking point.  It probably appreaches in intensity the scene back in 63, when they did not expect to see each other again.  But you are right in that in all 3 scenes, they reacted primarily with silence -- the inability to express how they felt.


Offline welshwitch

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What I can't figure out is whether afterwards Ennis actually thought about it and decided he could stand it, or whether he just sent the postcard because that's what he'd done before, and Ennis wasn't capable of breaking a habit?

And what did Jack do? Go back to Randall, presumably.

Offline tpe

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What I can't figure out is whether afterwards Ennis actually thought about it and decided he could stand it, or whether he just sent the postcard because that's what he'd done before, and Ennis wasn't capable of breaking a habit?

And what did Jack do? Go back to Randall, presumably.

I think Ennis could stand to be away from Jack, even if he forced himself not to lead a separate life from him.  I guess it was his idea of a compromise.  As in some compromises, you end up losing everything.

Offline welshwitch

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Jack lost his life.

Offline tpe

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Jack lost his life.

There are greater tragedies than losing one's life.  I guess the deep tragedy is that he died unfulfilled and embittered.


Offline lamusica

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I like to think they calmed down, got up, mentioned meeting in November, hugged good-bye and parted.  I realize this was a cataclysmic argument, but I do not feel it was anything that couldn't be overcome among two people who love one another.  People are always having disagreements and fights; often one person in a couple feels he/she has given more, way above and beyond what the other has given, to the relationship.  Still, they go on with it.  I think Ennis and Jack would have gone on with their relationship with little difference to the way it was in the past.  How it would have ended is fun to imagine.  I just don't think this was the end for them.
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Offline tpe

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I like to think they calmed down, got up, mentioned meeting in November, hugged good-bye and parted.  I realize this was a cataclysmic argument, but I do not feel it was anything that couldn't be overcome among two people who love one another.  People are always having disagreements and fights; often one person in a couple feels he/she has given more, way above and beyond what the other has given, to the relationship.  Still, they go on with it.  I think Ennis and Jack would have gone on with their relationship with little difference to the way it was in the past.  How it would have ended is fun to imagine.  I just don't think this was the end for them.

lamusica, so you don't think this quarrel pushed Jack to decide to try building a life with someone other then Ennis (as hinted at by John Twist)?

On one hand, I undersatnd what you mean: that things got torqued back to the status quo, as mentioned in the short story.  On the other hand, it would seem that Jack had given up on ever making progress with Ennis as far as sharing a life together, and that this last quarrel convinced him that to push Ennis in this direction would be to hurt him...

Offline lamusica

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Perhaps Jack would have continued his relationship with Randall, but not to the exclusion of Ennis.  Ennis was his love; Randall was his release.  Throughout history, many marriages existed like that: A wife and a mistress, for example.  I just don't think Jack would have forgotten Ennis because Ennis was too important to him -- a part of him.  If you really love someone, even someone who isn't good for you, it is hard, if not impossible, to leave them behind.  On a daily basis, Jack could have Randall; a few times a year he could have Ennis.  But it is Ennis who is his man forever, IMO.
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Offline tpe

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Perhaps Jack would have continued his relationship with Randall, but not to the exclusion of Ennis.  Ennis was his love; Randall was his release.  Throughout history, many marriages existed like that: A wife and a mistress, for example.  I just don't think Jack would have forgotten Ennis because Ennis was too important to him -- a part of him.  If you really love someone, even someone who isn't good for you, it is hard, if not impossible, to leave them behind.  On a daily basis, Jack could have Randall; a few times a year he could have Ennis.  But it is Ennis who is his man forever, IMO.

Yes, personally, I can't see Jack being able to bear a separation forever.  Call me a Romantic, but the patience of nearly 20 years speaks for itself when I say this.