Author Topic: Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.  (Read 15298 times)

Offline edgar

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« on: May 19, 2006, 03:53 AM »
Folks,

Heavy stuff. I am quite hesitant to bring this up, but it's something I've noticed a few times and I confirmed it tonight.

I've seen the complete movie only twice, but I've seen various clips (mostly on youtube) many times. Once when I was watching clips on youtube, but video stopped to buffer during the tire-iron scene when you could see one of the assailants pretty well (though blurry). I thought to myself, "Ooh, that looks a little like Ennis." Creepy.

Then I purposely tried to stop the video a few times at the same place. It's hard to get it to stop in the right place, and it's always blurry, but there is one little moment when you see a guy that is very reminiscent of Ennis.

Then one day, the thought hit me, "That guy is Ennis's stunt double." I just knew it, but I couldn't confirm it. Then I saw the movie on pay-per-view tonight, and there it was in the credits.

Near the end of the movie, the three assailants are mentioned. One, called "Grease Monkey," is played by Christian Fraser. Then, when the stunt doubles are listed, one of Ennis's doubles is Christian Fraser.

I feel certain that Ang Lee--being as careful and as brilliant as he is--did this on purpose. Why? So far I have two possibilities.

1. It is a statement that  :'( in some way  :'( Ennis is responsible for Jack's death. By refusing to be available to Jack, Jack was sort of forced into the relationship with Randall (or whatever), which was found out about and led to his death. This is very sad to think about.  :'( The scene shows what really happened, with the symbolism there to make a point.

2. Since the tire iron scene (I now believe; I'm contradicting an earlier post of mine on some thread) takes place in Ennis's mind (though still representing the basic truth of what happened), the presence of an alter-Ennis shows how guilty Ennis *feels* about Jack's death. He blames himself, perhaps irrationally, for not being there to help, or just for being Jack's lover (remember the scene where he describes irrational fears that "everyone knows".) This is also rather sad.

So by using Ennis's double to wield the tire iron, the scene is either stating that, on some level, Ennis really is responsible for Jack's death, or else the scene is merely stating that Ennis feels responsible for Jack's death.

Sorry. Painful subject, but some people might want to know.

*sad sigh*

Offline NoReins

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2006, 04:44 AM »
Hmmm. I have to say I hadn't noticed the similarity (maybe because I struggle to watch Ennis's view of Jack's death). However, even though it's possible that there was some kind of symbolism there, I am more inclined to believe that it was simply a case of "we're paying this guy anyway as Heath's stunt double so we may as well make use of him somewhere else". The budget wasn't huge and to pay another actor for a 8 second shot where you barely see his face would be daft - same reason for using one of the film crew (?) to play the prostitute that Jack goes off with in Mexico....
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline Sassenach

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2006, 06:01 AM »
 :o I hadn't noticed that.....very intersting.

I think what you said NoReins is possible too. But I think it's more likely that they did this on purpose like Edgar said, because it's Ennis's imagination and he blames himself a bit for Jack's death...

I really must watch that scene again....though it's so painful  :'(

Offline tpe

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2006, 07:28 AM »
Folks,

Heavy stuff. I am quite hesitant to bring this up, but it's something I've noticed a few times and I confirmed it tonight.

I've seen the complete movie only twice, but I've seen various clips (mostly on youtube) many times. Once when I was watching clips on youtube, but video stopped to buffer during the tire-iron scene when you could see one of the assailants pretty well (though blurry). I thought to myself, "Ooh, that looks a little like Ennis." Creepy.

Then I purposely tried to stop the video a few times at the same place. It's hard to get it to stop in the right place, and it's always blurry, but there is one little moment when you see a guy that is very reminiscent of Ennis.

Then one day, the thought hit me, "That guy is Ennis's stunt double." I just knew it, but I couldn't confirm it. Then I saw the movie on pay-per-view tonight, and there it was in the credits.

Near the end of the movie, the three assailants are mentioned. One, called "Grease Monkey," is played by Christian Fraser. Then, when the stunt doubles are listed, one of Ennis's doubles is Christian Fraser.

I feel certain that Ang Lee--being as careful and as brilliant as he is--did this on purpose. Why? So far I have two possibilities.

1. It is a statement that  :'( in some way  :'( Ennis is responsible for Jack's death. By refusing to be available to Jack, Jack was sort of forced into the relationship with Randall (or whatever), which was found out about and led to his death. This is very sad to think about.  :'( The scene shows what really happened, with the symbolism there to make a point.

2. Since the tire iron scene (I now believe; I'm contradicting an earlier post of mine on some thread) takes place in Ennis's mind (though still representing the basic truth of what happened), the presence of an alter-Ennis shows how guilty Ennis *feels* about Jack's death. He blames himself, perhaps irrationally, for not being there to help, or just for being Jack's lover (remember the scene where he describes irrational fears that "everyone knows".) This is also rather sad.

So by using Ennis's double to wield the tire iron, the scene is either stating that, on some level, Ennis really is responsible for Jack's death, or else the scene is merely stating that Ennis feels responsible for Jack's death.

Sorry. Painful subject, but some people might want to know.

*sad sigh*

I quote this in full.  It deserves to be quoted in full.  It is a superb post on one of the most painful of all topics. 

edgar, you have opened up a whole new dimension as far as BBM is concerned.

I am in full agreement with point #2.  It must be true.  It is too deliberate to assume it was by chance.

Again, this is a most wonderful and horrific thread.


 Da steht auch ein Mensch und starrt in die Höhe
 Und ringt die Hände vor Schmerzensgewalt;
 Mir graust es, wenn ich sein Antlitz sehe -
 Der Mond zeigt mir meine eigne Gestalt.

 Du Doppelgänger, du bleicher Geselle!
 Was äffst du nach mein Liebesleid,
 Das mich gequält auf dieser Stelle
 So manche Nacht, in alter Zeit?


A man is standing there, too, staring up into space,
And powerfully wringing his hands in torment.
It horrifies me, when I see his countenance,
The moon shows me my own form.

You my fearful double, you pale partner!
Why do you ape the pain of my love,
That has tortured me here in this spot
So many a night, in times long ago?

- Heine




 

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2006, 08:24 AM »
Near the end of the movie, the three assailants are mentioned. One, called "Grease Monkey," is played by Christian Fraser. Then, when the stunt doubles are listed, one of Ennis's doubles is Christian Fraser.

I feel certain that Ang Lee--being as careful and as brilliant as he is--did this on purpose. Why? So far I have two possibilities.

1. It is a statement that  :'( in some way  :'( Ennis is responsible for Jack's death. By refusing to be available to Jack, Jack was sort of forced into the relationship with Randall (or whatever), which was found out about and led to his death. This is very sad to think about.  :'( The scene shows what really happened, with the symbolism there to make a point.

2. Since the tire iron scene (I now believe; I'm contradicting an earlier post of mine on some thread) takes place in Ennis's mind (though still representing the basic truth of what happened), the presence of an alter-Ennis shows how guilty Ennis *feels* about Jack's death. He blames himself, perhaps irrationally, for not being there to help, or just for being Jack's lover (remember the scene where he describes irrational fears that "everyone knows".) This is also rather sad.

So by using Ennis's double to wield the tire iron, the scene is either stating that, on some level, Ennis really is responsible for Jack's death, or else the scene is merely stating that Ennis feels responsible for Jack's death.

Sorry. Painful subject, but some people might want to know.

*sad sigh*

Oh, wow.
Edgar, once again you show us how this story is filled with amazing connections and subtext.  Simply a beautiful summary of this horrific scene.    Just ... Wow.
My next viewing of BBM is going to kill me start to finish, I just know it, after what's been posted at ej this week.  :'(

Poor Ennis.
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline Rønnaug

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2006, 10:03 AM »
hmm... now theres something to think about....
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Offline chameau

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2006, 08:25 PM »
Folks,

Heavy stuff. I am quite hesitant to bring this up, but it's something I've noticed a few times and I confirmed it tonight.

I've seen the complete movie only twice, but I've seen various clips (mostly on youtube) many times. Once when I was watching clips on youtube, but video stopped to buffer during the tire-iron scene when you could see one of the assailants pretty well (though blurry). I thought to myself, "Ooh, that looks a little like Ennis." Creepy.

Then I purposely tried to stop the video a few times at the same place. It's hard to get it to stop in the right place, and it's always blurry, but there is one little moment when you see a guy that is very reminiscent of Ennis.

Then one day, the thought hit me, "That guy is Ennis's stunt double." I just knew it, but I couldn't confirm it. Then I saw the movie on pay-per-view tonight, and there it was in the credits.

Near the end of the movie, the three assailants are mentioned. One, called "Grease Monkey," is played by Christian Fraser. Then, when the stunt doubles are listed, one of Ennis's doubles is Christian Fraser.

I feel certain that Ang Lee--being as careful and as brilliant as he is--did this on purpose. Why? So far I have two possibilities.

1. It is a statement that  :'( in some way  :'( Ennis is responsible for Jack's death. By refusing to be available to Jack, Jack was sort of forced into the relationship with Randall (or whatever), which was found out about and led to his death. This is very sad to think about.  :'( The scene shows what really happened, with the symbolism there to make a point.

2. Since the tire iron scene (I now believe; I'm contradicting an earlier post of mine on some thread) takes place in Ennis's mind (though still representing the basic truth of what happened), the presence of an alter-Ennis shows how guilty Ennis *feels* about Jack's death. He blames himself, perhaps irrationally, for not being there to help, or just for being Jack's lover (remember the scene where he describes irrational fears that "everyone knows".) This is also rather sad.

So by using Ennis's double to wield the tire iron, the scene is either stating that, on some level, Ennis really is responsible for Jack's death, or else the scene is merely stating that Ennis feels responsible for Jack's death.

Sorry. Painful subject, but some people might want to know.

*sad sigh*

I quote this in full.  It deserves to be quoted in full.  It is a superb post on one of the most painful of all topics. 

edgar, you have opened up a whole new dimension as far as BBM is concerned.

I am in full agreement with point #2.  It must be true.  It is too deliberate to assume it was by chance.

Again, this is a most wonderful and horrific thread.


 Da steht auch ein Mensch und starrt in die Höhe
 Und ringt die Hände vor Schmerzensgewalt;
 Mir graust es, wenn ich sein Antlitz sehe -
 Der Mond zeigt mir meine eigne Gestalt.

 Du Doppelgänger, du bleicher Geselle!
 Was äffst du nach mein Liebesleid,
 Das mich gequält auf dieser Stelle
 So manche Nacht, in alter Zeit?


A man is standing there, too, staring up into space,
And powerfully wringing his hands in torment.
It horrifies me, when I see his countenance,
The moon shows me my own form.

You my fearful double, you pale partner!
Why do you ape the pain of my love,
That has tortured me here in this spot
So many a night, in times long ago?

- Heine




 

Sorry for quoting all of this but it deserved it .  Like Thomas mentioned, Edgar's point #2 makes a lot of sense and it actually sticks to the short story, this is in Ennis mind.  Ang Lee is a very gifted artist and poet and this is another proof of his genius directing Brokeback Mountain.

Thank you Edgar, this is one excellent observation.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 10:50 PM by chameau »
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2006, 08:54 PM »
Wow! Excellent observation Edgar! I usually close my eyes or turn away when that scene comes on- I can't handle it.  :'(
I'm really floored by this post!
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline edgar

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2006, 11:39 PM »
Thanks to all for the response. I'll say more at another time.

Thomas, that poem is set to music in an absolutely haunting song by Shubert. But you probably know that.

 ;) :-\ :'( :) :( ???

Offline frances

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2006, 01:03 PM »
Folks,

Heavy stuff. I am quite hesitant to bring this up, but it's something I've noticed a few times and I confirmed it tonight.

I've seen the complete movie only twice, but I've seen various clips (mostly on youtube) many times. Once when I was watching clips on youtube, but video stopped to buffer during the tire-iron scene when you could see one of the assailants pretty well (though blurry). I thought to myself, "Ooh, that looks a little like Ennis." Creepy.

Then I purposely tried to stop the video a few times at the same place. It's hard to get it to stop in the right place, and it's always blurry, but there is one little moment when you see a guy that is very reminiscent of Ennis.

Then one day, the thought hit me, "That guy is Ennis's stunt double." I just knew it, but I couldn't confirm it. Then I saw the movie on pay-per-view tonight, and there it was in the credits.

Near the end of the movie, the three assailants are mentioned. One, called "Grease Monkey," is played by Christian Fraser. Then, when the stunt doubles are listed, one of Ennis's doubles is Christian Fraser.

I feel certain that Ang Lee--being as careful and as brilliant as he is--did this on purpose. Why? So far I have two possibilities.

1. It is a statement that  :'( in some way  :'( Ennis is responsible for Jack's death. By refusing to be available to Jack, Jack was sort of forced into the relationship with Randall (or whatever), which was found out about and led to his death. This is very sad to think about.  :'( The scene shows what really happened, with the symbolism there to make a point.

2. Since the tire iron scene (I now believe; I'm contradicting an earlier post of mine on some thread) takes place in Ennis's mind (though still representing the basic truth of what happened), the presence of an alter-Ennis shows how guilty Ennis *feels* about Jack's death. He blames himself, perhaps irrationally, for not being there to help, or just for being Jack's lover (remember the scene where he describes irrational fears that "everyone knows".) This is also rather sad.

So by using Ennis's double to wield the tire iron, the scene is either stating that, on some level, Ennis really is responsible for Jack's death, or else the scene is merely stating that Ennis feels responsible for Jack's death.

Sorry. Painful subject, but some people might want to know.

*sad sigh*





I'll follow you and make a heaven out of hell
and I'll die by your hand which I love so well

 
(Shakespeare)



 
Excellent observation, Edgar. And yes, it's true "Enter at own risk."
Your post is so painful that I can hardly stand it.

My candle burns at both ends / It will not last the night / But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends / It gives a lovely light (Edna St. Vincent Millay)

Offline frenchboy

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2006, 05:51 PM »
During the tire iron secne, it seemed to me that Jack hadn't his moustache. Before he received the hits on the face, he looked like being younger... Not really sure... (we don't have the DVD in France yet :-[
That's why I think that the scene  just derives from Ennis' imagination.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2006, 11:33 AM »
I try telling myself that Jack did die as Lureen describes, ans if he did there's an irony in the idea that he was on his back, with no-one to turn him over as Ennis once did, and that he drowned in his own blood, as though in the end his passions killed him.

Perhaps Ennis's vision of his death incorporates some of his sense of guilt - however Jack died, Ennis must feel that it he's done what Jack wanted, if they'd had that place of their own, Jack might not have died. Or perhaps he's seeing Jack's death as he does because he wants, in some obscure way, to link it with the murder of the rancher in his childhood, with the feeling that this was how Jack was destined to die too?

But in the end I think ennis's version is right, and Jack is a victim of intolerance and the hatred of the other.

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2006, 07:08 PM »
During the tire iron secne, it seemed to me that Jack hadn't his moustache. Before he received the hits on the face, he looked like being younger... Not really sure... (we don't have the DVD in France yet :-[

I've mentioned this in a topic a while ago. I was told that he did still have his moustache but it was covered with blood (or something close to that). :\'(

Offline edgar

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2006, 07:10 PM »
Hey again, everybody. I'm going to make another long post, then I'll be very busy for a few days with a project (but I'll check in at least). I'll begin by quoting an exchange between *Patriot1* and myself from another thread. I don't know how to link at this point, but if one of the mods wants to supply the link, please do. The title of the thread is "Did Jack Have Lureen Killed?"

Quote from: edgar on Apr 17, 2006, 11:36 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Apr 17, 2006, 01:54 AM

Quote from: edgar on Apr 16, 2006, 11:43 PM

[*edgar] ...And the way the movie shows the flashes of the murder, those must come from Lureen's head, yes? Certainly not from Ennis's head, at this point.
[*Patriot 1*] Why do you think they can't come from Ennis' head Edgar?
He is the one standing there thinking and not saying a word, to the point where she had to say "hello" several times before the images stopped and he "woke up".
I was sure they came from Ennis.
[*edgar*]Also, I'm coming from the perspective that the shots of Jack's murder are "real." In other words, we are seeing what really happened to Jack. Ennis does not, cannot know this at this time. Lureen, imho, knows what really happened and *cannot keep* those images from her head as she repeats the lie.
I like your point about Jack's silence and faltering, but couldn't that just be a reaction to hearing the horrible news of Jack's death? Ennis was never much of a talker, you know....
[*Patriot1*] If you believe the images are real, that would have to mean either Ennis or Laureen was there when it happened in order for one of them to have a flashback of the real scene.
We all see the movie the way it means to most to us and I can not offer any conclusive proof or any kind of evidence to say the thoughts came from either one.  However, because Ennis is listening to her and thinking, and so caught up in his thoughts of Jack dying by the tire iron, I just believe the thoughts came from him.  She was talking, he was thinking.  For me, it doesn't make sense any other way.  She is talking and he is just standing there empty headed?
[*end of quoted material*]

I'll just start by saying that my understanding of the movie has changed since I wrote this, as will become clear. I've seen the movie again and read the short story since writing the above.

The reason why I said that I originally said that the images must have come from Lureen's head is explained by the fact that (I guess) she knew what happened (probably after the fact. I don't think she was involved in the murder, fwiw). However, now I see that they certainly came from Ennis's head (as Jack_Me points out in another thread, the shot is of Ennis, then the murder, then Ennis--the murder is in his thoughts).

This brings up some odd questions. Why would Ennis immediately think of Jack being murdered? Answer, of course, is that he had been shown Earl's body and had an almost irrational fear of his and/or Jack's being murdered because of society's homophobia (a homophobia, ironically, which he in part has shared in). But still.... It's not really like me to share personal information in a format like this, but it's one specific example of a well-known phenomenon that I can access immediately. When I was a teenager, my girlfriend was killed in a car accident. The accident occured at night. When my dad (I lived with my mom) showed up unexpectedly one morning to tell me the news, I distinctly remember standing in the doorway and laughing--for a split second. I wanted it to be a joke; my psychological defense to something I couldn't handle was to laugh at the information and thereby make it untrue. (I'm sure many of you can remember similar instances from your past or from works of literature and film.)

Now, Ennis already knows Jack is dead from the postcard, and has taken time to find the phone number, so we're not dealing with his absolute first reaction. But I still say that, psychologically, as Ennis hears those soul-searing words from Lureen, that any *involuntary* response on his part (such as seeing those images) would reflect Ennis's own desires. That's heavy, but this is a basic Freudian premise, and still very much accepted by later psychological theorists.

It is not at all uncommon for one partner in a relationship to dream or fantasize about the other's death. Once again, I'm sorry to be personal, but when my sister was trapped in a loveless marriage, she would dream very often that her husband had died. She would never have committed an act of violence against him; it was merely her subconscious helping her solve her problem by eliminating the issue. (She divorced.) One may also dream about a partner's death in times of conflict, or when one wishes for freedom.

I propose that Ennis has been wanting out of the relationship with Jack, and that his vision of the murder is one he has seen before--with himself or his "doppelganger" committing the murder.
 ~) ~) ~) ~)

Remember, as discussed in many other threads, Ennis had reached the breaking point and has told Jack, "Then why don't you [quit me]?" He blames Jack (partly irrationally, partly correctly) for all the problems in his life--economic, social, and family--and says he "can't stand this anymore." At least on some level, Jack  wants out. He is definitely capable of withdrawing and "quitting" a relationship--we see exactly the moment when he does this with Alma; he is absolutely content to "leave her alone." This is what a part of him (his superego, formed by the homophobic society, and  his ego, who doesn't want to have a "queer" identity--or you can just say his "head") wants to do with Jack. However his id (or his "heart" or his body) still sends the postcard. (This gets more complicated: he also sends the postcard because part of him feels obliged to Jack, his one true friend. Poor Ennis, where was a good therapist when he needed one?)

Now back to the question of whether the images Ennis sees are real or imagined. As *Patriot1* points out in the quotation above, strictly speaking, for the images to be real, either Ennis or Lureen (but they don't come from her head) would have had to witness the incident. Ennis certainly didn't. Now it gets difficult. Many of us believe the images show what really happened to Jack. We know Ang Lee filmed the entire sequence and then omitted most of it, just giving us those few horrible images. Thus, we tend to think that it really happened. (And, btw, since it was at the time meant to be part of the film, I definitely defend my original assertion that the choice to cast Christian Fraser, Ennis's double, as one of the murderers was intentional.)

However, the way the movie is now (not taking into account the story, the original screenplay, or the original film sequence), I think the only logical way to interpret the scene is as follows:

1. The images are from Ennis's head.
2. The images cannot be the *actual* murder because Ennis hasn't seen it. (However, they are close to the real thing, as it turns out.)
3. Ennis deepest fear (which, as we know, has a way of mixing itself up with our deepest desires at times) is that Jack would get killed because of him. He has had nightmares/daydreams of such a scenario.
4. An essential part of those nightmares was that Ennis himself was involved in the murder. This is due to the fact that Ennis could not psychologically handle with his relationship with Jack, and part of him wanted to do away with Jack, whom he resented for many valid reasons. (And loved for many valid reasons, but that's another story.)
5. Because of number 4, Ennis felt terrribly guilty and was a psychological mess, not able to handle the relationship with Cassie, withdrawing further and further into himself, drinking quite a bit, and having insomnia (apple pie scene).

Thus, the images Ennis sees in the phone booth are primarily from Ennis's nightmares of Ennis murdering Jack, but also, symbolically mixed with the actual murder of Jack. (Ennis was, after all, correct about the way these things happened in that society.)

Where's the emoticon that says... Whew!!!

Sorry for the long post, and for the disturbing parts of it, but I tried to show that this was a normal and understandable psychological process Ennis went through in which he saw himself murdering his friend and lover. Because he blamed himself for Jack's death, we see Ennis become very, very withdrawn and haggard afterwards.

This, by the way, is how Annie Proulx started writing the story. She saw a sad old cowboy sitting in a bar drinking.....

Thanks all, for reading. Hugs all around.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 01:47 AM by edgar »

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2006, 07:41 PM »
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline welshwitch

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2006, 12:04 AM »
I think Lureen knew about the way Jack died, but only because she was told after the event, and fed the cover-up story that was intended for public consumption. Remember the way Ennis said his father might have been involved ib the murder of the rancher - people knew or guesed who was likely to take part in such things but no-one said openly.

I don't think she was seeing the murder, but I think Ennis was. If you love someone, you become a part of them - Ennis is so much a part of Jack that as soon as he hears Lureen's little set-piece speech, he knows the truth - second sight, ESP, whatever. His whole existence since he met Jack had been dominated by the fear of a death like this, for Jack or himslef, and he instantly knew that what he'd spent his time fearing, what stopped him making a life with Jack and caused them so much misery, was the fate that was always waiting there and couldn't be avoided.

Jack's death and the nature of his life from now on have the inevitability of tragedy - the tragic hero sometimes seems to know what lies ahead and anticipates his own end with what can almost seem like relief- "the readiness is all". In a sense Ennis has been mentally prepared to be without Jack since the beginning - his death devastates Ennis but at the same time is something almost expected, and its nature, even possibility, something he has contemplated before.

Offline edgar

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2006, 01:57 AM »
I think Lureen knew about the way Jack died, but only because she was told after the event, and fed the cover-up story that was intended for public consumption. Remember the way Ennis said his father might have been involved ib the murder of the rancher - people knew or guesed who was likely to take part in such things but no-one said openly.

[to which edgar replies] Yes. No doubt. [/edgar]

I don't think she was seeing the murder, but I think Ennis was. If you love someone, you become a part of them - Ennis is so much a part of Jack that as soon as he hears Lureen's little set-piece speech, he knows the truth - second sight, ESP, whatever. His whole existence since he met Jack had been dominated by the fear of a death like this, for Jack or himslef, and he instantly knew that what he'd spent his time fearing, what stopped him making a life with Jack and caused them so much misery, was the fate that was always waiting there and couldn't be avoided.

[to which edgar replies] I like that idea. I had said earlier that the scene seems to be a mixture of Ennis's nightmare and what really happened. ESP (or whatever) works. It's certainly been used in countless books and films. [/edgar]

Jack's death and the nature of his life from now on have the inevitability of tragedy - the tragic hero sometimes seems to know what lies ahead and anticipates his own end with what can almost seem like relief- "the readiness is all". In a sense Ennis has been mentally prepared to be without Jack since the beginning - his death devastates Ennis but at the same time is something almost expected, and its nature, even possibility, something he has contemplated before.

[edgar] What do you mean "from now on"?
Yes, Ennis has been expecting this from the morning after the FNIT when he comes upon the dead sheep. And the early snow.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2006, 05:21 AM »
By "from now on" I just meant that Ennis would go on living alone - unlike Jack, he wouldn't find anyone else. He had a connection with his daughter and this I suppose might continue, but I can't see him in any other relationship involving risking his emotions, which is what you do when you love someone. I like the idea that he might have made contact with Jack's mother again, but I'm not to sure that isn't wishful thinking.

Offline tpe

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2006, 07:33 AM »
Thanks to all for the response. I'll say more at another time.

Thomas, that poem is set to music in an absolutely haunting song by Shubert. But you probably know that.

 ;) :-\ :'( :) :( ???

Indeed edgar, the Schubert setting was what I had in mind.

As Pierre and the other forumers have said many times over, this is a truly wonderful observation of yours.  I have taken it to heart (assuming a heart can take it).


Offline tpe

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2006, 07:38 AM »
During the tire iron secne, it seemed to me that Jack hadn't his moustache. Before he received the hits on the face, he looked like being younger... Not really sure... (we don't have the DVD in France yet :-[
That's why I think that the scene  just derives from Ennis' imagination.


There was so much blood I could not tell.





Offline edgar

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2006, 12:18 PM »
By "from now on" I just meant that Ennis would go on living alone - unlike Jack, he wouldn't find anyone else. He had a connection with his daughter and this I suppose might continue, but I can't see him in any other relationship involving risking his emotions, which is what you do when you love someone. I like the idea that he might have made contact with Jack's mother again, but I'm not to sure that isn't wishful thinking.
Oh, I see. What I actually didn't understand was the word "he" in the original post; I thought you meant Jack, not Ennis. Yes, Ennis would tend to stay alone.... But if, years later, someone approached him (ala Cassie), I might see him getting involved... Ahdunno.

Offline amtamburo

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2006, 11:42 PM »
hmmm... perhaps he might get involved, but somehow... for me anyway... his "Jack, I swear" meant that Ennis was finally making the commitment to Jack that he never could when he was alive. Sadly, I think that it took losing Jack for Ennis to admit to himself that the feelings he had for Jack were in fact love.  :-[ 

~sorry, I need to go cry now~
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Offline NoReins

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2006, 02:05 AM »
hmmm... perhaps he might get involved, but somehow... for me anyway... his "Jack, I swear" meant that Ennis was finally making the commitment to Jack that he never could when he was alive. Sadly, I think that it took losing Jack for Ennis to admit to himself that the feelings he had for Jack were in fact love.  :-[ 

~sorry, I need to go cry now~

My thoughts exactly amtamburo.

Welcome to the forum by the way #$#
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

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This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

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Offline welshwitch

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2006, 03:23 PM »
My thoughts. too. Ennis loved only once and that ended in death and loneliness - he wouldn't risk his heart again and couldn't anyway. and maybe his vision of Jack's death was also a sort of foreshadowing of what might happen to him or warning against admitting his real nature.

Offline tpe

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2006, 03:34 PM »
My thoughts. too. Ennis loved only once and that ended in death and loneliness - he wouldn't risk his heart again and couldn't anyway. and maybe his vision of Jack's death was also a sort of foreshadowing of what might happen to him or warning against admitting his real nature.

There is something in this and your other post, welshwitch, that resonates with me deep inside.  It is hard to express precisely in words, except to acknowledge that I see plainly an underlying truth.


Offline dalemidex

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2006, 04:22 PM »
My thoughts. too. Ennis loved only once and that ended in death and loneliness - he wouldn't risk his heart again and couldn't anyway. and maybe his vision of Jack's death was also a sort of foreshadowing of what might happen to him or warning against admitting his real nature.

What a profoundly sad topic.

Something of this last piece, however, doesn't quit fit right to me.  At least not at as I first read it now. 

The path of thought that sees Ennis' vision of Jack's death as warning, a foreshadowing of his own demise should he admit the truth, goes counter to where I think the story ends up.

Were this the way of Ennis thinking, I think it would lead him to tend more towards repression, denial, fear.  If the vision was Ennis telling himself this is what happens to queers and you'd better be sure you're not one would that not push Ennis further back into the depths?

Rather, his admittal to Lureen of their real good friendship and that Brokeback was a place for the two of them, seem to point the other direction.  And if that episode on the phone could be chalked up to a brief spur of the moment reaction, the scene in the Twist house can't be.  Ennis had at very least several hours (even if he hopped right into the truck) to think about things.  Yet at the Twist house he doesn't deny anything when it is clear that they understand who Ennis was.  He seems more honest about things, not less.

Maybe after this processin my head a little while longer I'll see it differently, but if Ennis' vision was a self-warning about his own demise and the necessity of denial, I think it turned around quickly.  Maybe this is how it went.  The power of his love for Jack overcame the gut fears which painted the horrible scene in his head which would further repress?

Hmmmm....



« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 05:50 PM by dalemidex »

Offline tpe

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2006, 06:54 PM »
I feel that in the end, Ennis is entombed with his love for the dead Jack.  There is hope in his acceptance in the wedding invitation of his daughter, but I sense that in some way, he had already died.

In this sense, the tire iron is the death of two, and not one.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2006, 07:03 PM »
I feel that in the end, Ennis is entombed with his love for the dead Jack.  There is hope in his acceptance in the wedding invitation of his daughter, but I sense that in some way, he had already died.

In this sense, the tire iron is the death of two, and not one.


You just have to get me going don't you?  :\'(

I believe a big part of Ennis died when Jack died.
As you said there is hope- I think Ennis learned to put love and those he loves above everything else.
I don't think he could handle having to live with anymore "What ifs".
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline frances

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2006, 07:04 PM »
My thoughts. too. Ennis loved only once and that ended in death and loneliness - he wouldn't risk his heart again and couldn't anyway. and maybe his vision of Jack's death was also a sort of foreshadowing of what might happen to him or warning against admitting his real nature.

.....because he feels the one with enough hope to dare to live by reaching for happiness is the one who dies and the one who repressed his life to the point of a living death, is the one who lives.


That reversal make the story so sad beyond words because you just keep hoping both the characters will make it somehow, even though you know they are doomed.


My candle burns at both ends / It will not last the night / But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends / It gives a lovely light (Edna St. Vincent Millay)

Offline frances

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Re: tire iron scene. Enter at own risk.
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2006, 07:09 PM »
I feel that in the end, Ennis is entombed with his love for the dead Jack.  There is hope in his acceptance in the wedding invitation of his daughter, but I sense that in some way, he had already died.

In this sense, the tire iron is the death of two, and not one.


Wonderful post
My candle burns at both ends / It will not last the night / But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends / It gives a lovely light (Edna St. Vincent Millay)