Author Topic: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'  (Read 58544 times)

Offline tpe

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Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« on: Jan 11, 2006, 10:09 AM »
Proulx has been criticized for using this seemingly elegant, almost Shakespearean phrase in her story of two poorly educated and confused young men.

All my older gay friends are somewhat mystified by this phrase.  They cannot recall having heard it from among the plethora of euphemisms used in gay circles to denote the 'act.'

Does anyone in this forum know of possible origins/etymologies for this phrase?  Has anyone heard it used prior to 1997 (when the short story was published)?

Offline stationbbm

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #1 on: Jan 11, 2006, 02:19 PM »
TPE:

This was in the short story as well as the film.  I had never heard that phrase either.  Frankly, Randy Quaid's delivery seemed awkward with the phrase...it just seemed out of character....a rancher making reference in some type of harlequin romance type code.  A rancher in Wyoming would have used something much, much more off color.  And then probably would have cursed him out of the trailer.  That's just my take.

For all of our etymology experts, I'd be curious as well.

stationbbm

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #2 on: Jan 11, 2006, 02:40 PM »
I'd love to put answer for this question...but it would be a little OTT for this forum. I'll PM both of you instead  ;)
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Offline tpe

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #3 on: Jan 11, 2006, 03:13 PM »
Thanks froggy, for the interesting PM.  I think I'll post my thoughts on your PM out in the open, careful not to be too explicit.

Yes, a latin/classics professor friend of mine pointed out the BBM-related posts in languagechat.  The 'rose' and 'stem' are indeed suggestive enough to make the phrase work, although I agree with stationbbm that to make Joe Aguirre say this is a bit strange and too poetic for his background (if you don't mind me saying so.).

But you also seem to think that there is hardly any earlier precedent from which Proulx might have drawn this phrase.  Short of trying to get an answer from her, I begin to consider the possibility that she invented this interesting phrase specifically for the story.

Noting how suggestive the names of things and characters are in BBM, I would not be surprised if there is something more to her choice of this rather elegant euphemism.

For those interested, here is the relevant discussion in languagechat, as cited by my friend:

http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002214.php
« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2006, 03:26 PM by tpe »

Offline stationbbm

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #4 on: Jan 11, 2006, 08:12 PM »
TPE:

Without belaboring, I will air my conservatism and simply state that the euphamism, while effective, was not the right "part" for this cowboy short story.  I'm not sure what AP was after, but Joe Aguirre should never/could never say something like that......"Don't go on with me Jack.  I saw you guys last summer up there carrying on with each other like (you fill in the blank...perhaps something with a pastoral reference to sheep...)"  Just not ROSES....

stationbbm 

Offline jimnick

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #5 on: Jan 11, 2006, 11:29 PM »
... couldn't very well have said  "playing hide the sausage"  could he?

Jim

Offline chameau

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #6 on: Jan 11, 2006, 11:56 PM »
I will definitely take my traducer friend into this.  However, when I mentioned her T-Shirts being sold on the Net with the mentions "Save a horse, ride Jack"  or "Save a horse, ride Ennis" she did not understood.  I had to explain.. too much Gay perhaps?   :o
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Offline stationbbm

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #7 on: Jan 11, 2006, 11:56 PM »
Surprises me that McMurty who helped write the screenplay would have been okay with that euphamism.  He could have come up with a half dozen others off the top of his head...let's be serious.  VH1 special in about an hour here in DFW.  Should be worth staying up for...

stationbbm

Offline Apollonos

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #8 on: Jan 12, 2006, 01:03 AM »
This odd phrase seems to have slipped past AP, too. There was an article about her being consulted for the movie, and she said that she only made a few changes to dialog that sounded more like Texas dialect than Wyoming. I wonder how she missed something as strange as "stemming the rose"?

Offline tpe

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #9 on: Jan 12, 2006, 09:08 AM »
I can't help feeling that AP lifted this curious phrase from some literary (Shakespearean?) work.  But I can only agree with stationbbm that is does strike one as incongruous when one hears it coming from Aguirre.

Apollonos, I was wondering about the same thing myself.  I had a feeling that AP intentionally left it there, even if she must have been aware of the strangeness.  She must have been striving for a particular literary effect -- what precisely I am not exactly sure...

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #10 on: Jan 12, 2006, 11:42 AM »
I can't help feeling that AP lifted this curious phrase from some literary (Shakespearean?) work.  But I can only agree with stationbbm that is does strike one as incongruous when one hears it coming from Aguirre.

I doubt it's from Shakespeare...Oscar Wilde more like ;)
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Offline chameau

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #11 on: Jan 12, 2006, 09:22 PM »
I finaly sent this to my movie buddy who's a traducer.

Stay tuned!
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline Liam56

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #12 on: Jan 13, 2006, 03:40 AM »
I'm not sure of what the etymology of "stem the rose" is in the quote that Joe Aguirre directs at Jack Twist:  "You guys wasn't gettin' paid to leave the dogs baby-sit the sheep while you 'stemmed the rose.'"  It does have, as TPE says, a "Shakespearean" tone to it, but I think it may be something much more mundane in meaning.  When I first heard it in the film it had a familiar ring to it, and I just could not seem to place it, and then it hit me.  On occasion, I recall my Irish grandmother using it.  The context was always in terms of goofing off, wasting time, or in cruder terms, f***ing off.  It certainly was not used in a sexual sense (certainly not my family).  It seems that this is what Aguirre had in mind, that both Ennis and Jack were being paid for shirking their responsibilities, but there certainly is a sexual overtone by the disdain he shows for Jack.

Liam56

Offline Apollonos

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #13 on: Jan 13, 2006, 04:24 AM »
I found a fascinating discussion on the subject here:

http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002214.php

There are some fairly convincing arguments that the phrase refers to anal sex, but sadly, no conclusive references to a definitive authority such as the OED.

Offline tpe

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #14 on: Jan 13, 2006, 07:51 AM »
Apollonos and Liam56, thanks for the fascinating references. 

The use of language and different voices in the movie and short story are very impressive.  Right now, I am thinking if there are other curious (albeit less colorful) phrases that were used by the characters that would be worth delving into.

Thanks chameau!  I will stay tuned. :)

Offline ranchgal

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #15 on: Jan 13, 2006, 08:17 AM »
TPE:

Without belaboring, I will air my conservatism and simply state that the euphamism, while effective, was not the right "part" for this cowboy short story.  I'm not sure what AP was after, but Joe Aguirre should never/could never say something like that......"Don't go on with me Jack.  I saw you guys last summer up there carrying on with each other like (you fill in the blank...perhaps something with a pastoral reference to sheep...)"  Just not ROSES....

stationbbm 

I beg to differ somewhat.  AND I completely agree with Liam56, his grandmother and mine sounded similiar. (smiles)  My Father was  fighter pilot in WW2-and ended up stationed in TX, and then ended up in the midwest raising cattle.    He and I used to go round and round about language, starting about 1974.  IF you go back even as far as the civil war--letters wrote back to families often had very flowery phrasing, from not overly educated people.   NO one out there regularly used language like you hear today--until AFTER the VietNam Vets started to come home.   ANd since "gay" was NOT a reference for where they were, or even an idea of what it was, why would any description of it "fit" anything they would use in conversation then?  It was an uncommon concept, and needed an uncommon referal.   Unless you actually knew Joe's Mother, you can't make assumptions that that is something he would never say. LOL

   But back then, in '63---while that particular phrase might sound off to some---it would fit in the men I knew trying to NICELY describe what they didn't/couldn't bring themselves to actually talk about at all.  The younger people were JUST STARTING to swear/express themselvesr outloud, and in public beginning with the rebellion/anti-war/hippie movement, but it did not evolve into main stream till in the late 60s, early 70s.    I remember the first time anyone actually swore outloud in front of our local movie theater---the manager called their Mother.   we were in Jr. High at the time, and it was one of my friends--the whole group got grounded for a week.     In middle America, that type of phrasing is exactly what he would say.

In the midwest, these men were raised as God fearing, vulgarisms were almost unheard of, and swearing never in public--EVER!!--and when I first read that in the story, it made complete sense to me and did not seem out of place at all.    Roses were a much easier phrase than anything to do with sheep---I am sorry, but sheep would have presented a reality and would have given it a humor he did NOT intend, when he was getting his message across to Jack.   I thought it fit perfectly.        And Annie must have had the same type upbringing as I did, in basically the same locations--cause within the story, it made sense to me right off.   And she knew the same kind of man raised in the same country as I did.

this always sounds like applying 90s new age standards to a time before those standards/ideas were actually commonplace.   It fits in the world I grew up in, and back in the very early 60s especially.
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2006, 08:24 AM by ranchgal »

Offline tpe

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #16 on: Jan 13, 2006, 08:44 AM »
TPE:

Without belaboring, I will air my conservatism and simply state that the euphamism, while effective, was not the right "part" for this cowboy short story.  I'm not sure what AP was after, but Joe Aguirre should never/could never say something like that......"Don't go on with me Jack.  I saw you guys last summer up there carrying on with each other like (you fill in the blank...perhaps something with a pastoral reference to sheep...)"  Just not ROSES....

stationbbm 

I beg to differ somewhat.  AND I completely agree with Liam56, his grandmother and mine sounded similiar. (smiles)  My Father was  fighter pilot in WW2-and ended up stationed in TX, and then ended up in the midwest raising cattle.    He and I used to go round and round about language, starting about 1974.  IF you go back even as far as the civil war--letters wrote back to families often had very flowery phrasing, from not overly educated people.   NO one out there regularly used language like you hear today--until AFTER the VietNam Vets started to come home.   ANd since "gay" was NOT a reference for where they were, or even an idea of what it was, why would any description of it "fit" anything they would use in conversation then?  It was an uncommon concept, and needed an uncommon referal.   Unless you actually knew Joe's Mother, you can't make assumptions that that is something he would never say. LOL

   But back then, in '63---while that particular phrase might sound off to some---it would fit in the men I knew trying to NICELY describe what they didn't/couldn't bring themselves to actually talk about at all.  The younger people were JUST STARTING to swear/express themselvesr outloud, and in public beginning with the rebellion/anti-war/hippie movement, but it did not evolve into main stream till in the late 60s, early 70s.    I remember the first time anyone actually swore outloud in front of our local movie theater---the manager called their Mother.   we were in Jr. High at the time, and it was one of my friends--the whole group got grounded for a week.     In middle America, that type of phrasing is exactly what he would say.

In the midwest, these men were raised as God fearing, vulgarisms were almost unheard of, and swearing never in public--EVER!!--and when I first read that in the story, it made complete sense to me and did not seem out of place at all.    Roses were a much easier phrase than anything to do with sheep---I am sorry, but sheep would have presented a reality and would have given it a humor he did NOT intend, when he was getting his message across to Jack.   I thought it fit perfectly.        And Annie must have had the same type upbringing as I did, in basically the same locations--cause within the story, it made sense to me right off.   And she knew the same kind of man raised in the same country as I did.

this always sounds like applying 90s new age standards to a time before those standards/ideas were actually commonplace.   It fits in the world I grew up in, and back in the very early 60s especially.

ranchgal, I really appreciate your line of argument here.  To me, there is more than a grain of truth in what you said.  At least I can speak for myself and do confess that I do catch myself applying today's standards and expectations to situations that have a completely different milieu.    While I am probably not knowledgable as you and stationbbm with regards to the Midwestern context during the 60s, I sense that there is possibly more to Proulx's choice of words than a mere striving for literary effects.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.

Offline stationbbm

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #17 on: Jan 13, 2006, 12:48 PM »
TPE:

Without belaboring, I will air my conservatism and simply state that the euphamism, while effective, was not the right "part" for this cowboy short story.  I'm not sure what AP was after, but Joe Aguirre should never/could never say something like that......"Don't go on with me Jack.  I saw you guys last summer up there carrying on with each other like (you fill in the blank...perhaps something with a pastoral reference to sheep...)"  Just not ROSES....

stationbbm 

I beg to differ somewhat.  AND I completely agree with Liam56, his grandmother and mine sounded similiar. (smiles)  My Father was  fighter pilot in WW2-and ended up stationed in TX, and then ended up in the midwest raising cattle.    He and I used to go round and round about language, starting about 1974.  IF you go back even as far as the civil war--letters wrote back to families often had very flowery phrasing, from not overly educated people.   NO one out there regularly used language like you hear today--until AFTER the VietNam Vets started to come home.   ANd since "gay" was NOT a reference for where they were, or even an idea of what it was, why would any description of it "fit" anything they would use in conversation then?  It was an uncommon concept, and needed an uncommon referal.   Unless you actually knew Joe's Mother, you can't make assumptions that that is something he would never say. LOL

   But back then, in '63---while that particular phrase might sound off to some---it would fit in the men I knew trying to NICELY describe what they didn't/couldn't bring themselves to actually talk about at all.  The younger people were JUST STARTING to swear/express themselvesr outloud, and in public beginning with the rebellion/anti-war/hippie movement, but it did not evolve into main stream till in the late 60s, early 70s.    I remember the first time anyone actually swore outloud in front of our local movie theater---the manager called their Mother.   we were in Jr. High at the time, and it was one of my friends--the whole group got grounded for a week.     In middle America, that type of phrasing is exactly what he would say.

In the midwest, these men were raised as God fearing, vulgarisms were almost unheard of, and swearing never in public--EVER!!--and when I first read that in the story, it made complete sense to me and did not seem out of place at all.    Roses were a much easier phrase than anything to do with sheep---I am sorry, but sheep would have presented a reality and would have given it a humor he did NOT intend, when he was getting his message across to Jack.   I thought it fit perfectly.        And Annie must have had the same type upbringing as I did, in basically the same locations--cause within the story, it made sense to me right off.   And she knew the same kind of man raised in the same country as I did.

this always sounds like applying 90s new age standards to a time before those standards/ideas were actually commonplace.   It fits in the world I grew up in, and back in the very early 60s especially.

Beg to differ.  I simply believe that Proulx's use of this phrase is completely out of context with the character.  Cowboys using vulgarisms stretch much further back into history than the 60s/70s....and would have said these to other cowboys without regard to public or private offense.  TPE does seem to think that Proulx must have been deliberate in her choice of phrases.  Having viewed the film twice, both times the line seemed soooooooooooooooo out of place...in the few lines that we hear Joe speak, this single line does not "agree" with the rest of his lines.  I'm only guessing, but the screenplay must have kept it in the script because Ossana/McMurtry must have counselled with Proulx who may have offered explanation for its use.  Have our expert etymologists come forth with anything significant on this??  derivation?  origin? 

stationbbm

Offline ranchgal

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #18 on: Jan 14, 2006, 12:36 AM »
Well for one thing, IF you read Liam56----it is completely in context----because Joe was NOT talking about sex with that phrase-(granted he is including the sex as part of the wasting of time but NOT the main point, he didn't care what they did IF they would have been out with the sheep as instructed)---WE are talking about sex in context to it---HE is NOT.

Stemming the rose is statement about wasting time doing something you shouldn't or don't need to be doing instead of doing what you are supposed to be doing at the time.

translation: you are standing around wasting time, pulling petals off a flower till nothing is left but the stem----when you are supposed to be doing your chores.
Jack and Ennis were pulling the clothes off each other instead of herding the sheep.

That is a common saying among OLDER, as in mostly long dead by now people, and IF Joe's grandmother or mother said it---and he heard it enough it would stick.   Just as much in context as Ennis humming in Jack's ear--because his mother had done the same to him when he was young.
I am not saying that cowboys didn't swear, and weren't occasionally vulgar---but in truth in the real west it wasn't anywhere  as common as it is today.   Read some biographies---they tell about western  men from back before the depression, long before cars too, who apologized if they said DAmn!   IT was not common, esp. around any strangers, or people not completely familiar to them.   
« Last Edit: Jan 14, 2006, 12:57 AM by ranchgal »

Offline Liam56

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #19 on: Jan 14, 2006, 01:37 AM »
I found a fascinating discussion on the subject here:

http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002214.php

Apollonos----

Thanks for the above site with all the references to "stemming the rose."  I'm a language teacher, so I am always fascinated by expressions and meaning.

There are some fairly convincing arguments that the phrase refers to anal sex, but sadly, no conclusive references to a definitive authority such as the OED.

Some of the quotes referrring to a sexual understanding of the expression were rather interesting, but I'm not sure if I can buy some of them.  But who knows?  Thanks again for the info.  I read it with great interest.

Liam56

Offline Apollonos

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #20 on: Jan 14, 2006, 04:23 AM »
Quote
Some of the quotes referrring to a sexual understanding of the expression were rather interesting, but I'm not sure if I can buy some of them.  But who knows?  Thanks again for the info.  I read it with great interest.

I agree: a lot of the arguments seemed to lack credibility, but some of the posters sounded quite knowledgeable. Even if an iron-clad conclusion was never reached, it was an enjoyable read. I'm glad you liked it.

Offline chameau

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Re: Your Favorite Scene of the Movie - (possible spoiler)
« Reply #21 on: Jan 15, 2006, 05:31 PM »
Hello all,

This is what my friend (the traducer) sent me, makes a lot of sense.  Warning!  Vulgar language ahead!   :o

1. Stem the rose link send redefine  8 up, 56 down

Its a euphemism for "struggling against love". In the movie "Brokeback
Mountain", Jack and Ennis were hired to protect the sheep from wolves.... ie...
to _stem_ the wolf attacks. Instead of stemming the wolf attacks, they stemmed
the rose... which meant that they were battling against homosexual desires.
Essentially, it was used to equate _being overtaken by same-sex-attraction_ to
_being overtaken by a wolf attack_ .... and was used as a device to show that
the boss saw them as being attacked by love. Despite being from two families at
war with each other, Romeo and Juliet were unsuccessful in their attempts to
stem the rose... and love won out.
synonyms: resist, hold back, prevent, stop, restrain. related words: stemming
the rose, stemmed the rose
Source: Glenn G, DC, Dec 27, 2005
2. Stem the rose link send redefine  53 up, 6 down

If one more movie critic tries to publicly decipher this again I will
hysterically vomit with rage.

I don't think your average cowboy has a clear concept of Shakespearean ethereal
love.

"Stemming the Rose" in this crowd means planting your stem (penis) in someone's
rosebud (anus). Get it?I like to pull her knees up to her ears, stem the rose
and finish with a Dirty Sanchez. Then we order pizza.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline jimnick

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #22 on: Jan 15, 2006, 10:50 PM »
Oh.

Jim

Offline chameau

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #23 on: Jan 15, 2006, 10:59 PM »
Oh?

Hi Jim! 

I guess Pauline (my movie buddy, mouah!  :-*)  did some good work here.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline jimnick

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #24 on: Jan 15, 2006, 11:13 PM »
Pauline was very thorough.  I can certainly see why everyone thinks that the euphemism was wayout of Ennis and Jack's league.  thanks for the research.

Going to bed now,

Have a Good Monday,

Jim

Offline chameau

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Re: Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'
« Reply #25 on: Jan 15, 2006, 11:27 PM »
Just don't forget to send wishes to Ethan on his birthday.

Good night,

Sleep tight,

Pierre
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

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Stem the Roses?!
« Reply #26 on: Jan 18, 2006, 02:25 AM »
Just out of curiosity, what exactly does "stem the roses" mean?

Offline dirtbiker

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Re: Stem the Roses?!
« Reply #27 on: Jan 18, 2006, 02:29 AM »
Someone said it meant wasting time like pulling the petals and leaves off the stem of the rose...

Offline tpe

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Re: Stem the Roses?!
« Reply #28 on: Jan 18, 2006, 07:51 AM »
Just out of curiosity, what exactly does "stem the roses" mean?

Hello webshaun.  There is another thread here devoted to this question.  It is called "Etymology Query for 'Stem the Rose'".   :)
« Last Edit: Jan 18, 2006, 01:14 PM by tpe »

Offline tpe

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Re: Stem the Roses?!
« Reply #29 on: Jan 18, 2006, 01:14 PM »
Just out of curiosity, what exactly does "stem the roses" mean?

webshaun, I merged your thread with the other one that discusses your question.

Again, feel free to share your thoughts regading the other posts in this thread! :)