Author Topic: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler  (Read 46138 times)

Offline Kindred

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Prior to seeing the movie for the first time, my only exposure to the story was through reading reviews.  Admittedly, I didn't know much about the story.  However, I read that the first tent scene was described by Ang Lee as being either animalistic or primal.  I can't remember the exact wording used, but I understood the implication.

Leading up to the scene, I was sure that Jack would be the "male" and Ennis the "female" of the encounter.

I was surprised that Ennis was the more sexually aggressive.  Jack was the one that initiated the contact.  He also is the one to likely have had past homosexual encounters.  Ennis' personality on the other hand, seemed the more insecure and unsure of the two.  I would have expected Jack to have to take charge in the sexual encounter and take the role of the male.  However, both the book and the movie have Ennis being the aggressor.  He helps take Jacks pants off and almost forcibly throws him face down before penetrating him.

This just seems out of character for Ennis.  Jack seems the more dominant personality of the two, with Ennis being reserved.  A first time sexual encounter would make anyone nervous, but a homosexual encounter (something Ennis had never had before) would make the situation even harder.  Was it the pure lust of the moment? 

In the second tent scene, Ennis this time approaches Jack first.  However, his posture to me is more one of submission.  He seems  to relent to the emotions.  In this encounter, Jack places Ennis on his back and takes the top, more dominant, position.

In the motel scene, we see Ennis laying in front of Jack with his head resting on his chest.  Again, I see this as Jack being in the more dominant position.

The two sexual encounters between Ennis and Alma have Ennis being the aggressor.  However, I simply interpreted this as him being the "man" of the relationship and expected to take charge.

Was the first tent scene unexpected to anyone else?
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2006, 01:49 PM by ethan »

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene
« Reply #1 on: Jan 22, 2006, 12:13 PM »
I had read the short story...so no surprise there ;)

Jack was the one who cuddled, caressed Ennis' cheek, held his lover in his arms...

It is a difficult topic and I do not know how to phrase what I want to say...I guess I always saw Ennis as the "male", and the scenes with Alma just reinforced this idea.
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Offline Walford

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene
« Reply #2 on: Jan 22, 2006, 02:41 PM »
I think the book and the movie both try to subtly reinforce that neither is the "top" or "bottom" in the relationship.

Offline Aela

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene
« Reply #3 on: Jan 22, 2006, 03:02 PM »
This just seems out of character for Ennis. 

Not really.  It's in perfect character for Ennis.  It is less of a threat to his masculinity to partake in the more "male" sex role than the passive "receiving" end.  In other words "pitching" is seen as being a more manly thing to do than "catching."  It's been that way for eons.

Even in old Norse sagas, there are insults to that effect.  No one thought less of the man who was the penetrator, but the penetratee was considered less of a man.
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Offline Toadily

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene
« Reply #4 on: Jan 22, 2006, 03:11 PM »
Well the way Proulx wrote it was I think to make eh point the first time was a bit rough and not planned or anything.  the way those two guys would be be like the first time.  It fit
Ennis would take over like that, remember his temper, he loses it first.  Jack would push things to the breaking and then
Ennis would take off. 
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tweric

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene
« Reply #5 on: Jan 24, 2006, 12:00 PM »
I saw the movie first. I also was surprised the way it turned out -- that jack initiated it, unbuckled first, but then... huh?! (I was in awe and ewww  :P )

Offline j

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene
« Reply #6 on: Jan 24, 2006, 12:12 PM »
Ennis being the *giver* not the *receiver* would not in Ennis's mind make hime *queer*. Many men feel this way.
J

Offline Toadily

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene
« Reply #7 on: Jan 24, 2006, 12:18 PM »
Yeah I can't see Ennis being the receiver the first time so this is brilliant really on Proulx's part although she might not have thought about it as much as we think.
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Offline Kindred

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene
« Reply #8 on: Jan 24, 2006, 12:25 PM »
I guess my original thought was that Jack would take the more proactive role.  I wasn't necessarily focusing on the giver vs receiver issue. 

I guess the best way I can relate the issue in my own mind is that Ennis overcame any inhibitions in the heat of the moment.

edit: Also wanted to add, perhaps this also goes along with Ennis not wanting to look directly at Jack, even when they hug.  Not seeing that Jack is a man might make it easier for Ennis?  Possible?
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2006, 12:30 PM by Kindred »

Offline j

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #9 on: Jan 24, 2006, 02:00 PM »
Disclaimer.  I am not a guy.; )
I have read that an expereicned gay man who is seducing another man into a first sexsual experience, takes it, not gives it.

Sorry if this sounds vulgar. I do not mean it as such.
J

Offline coguaro

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #10 on: Jan 24, 2006, 03:11 PM »
To have  initiative or to be more insistent don't mean to have an "active" role. I consider the Jack first  behavior as the same of a "woman" in love with a reticent man..
I also see more feminine character in Jack than in Ennis, because his capability to listen and comprise, his sensitivity, his vivacity.  It seems also that Ennis had a masculinity complex which may bring him to participate only with an "active" role... who can tell?

In others scene we cant say how it gone. My global impression is that it is impossible to say how much Ennis/Jack were doing sex..

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Offline Sitaram

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #11 on: Jan 24, 2006, 03:32 PM »
I think this is an important issue, both for understanding BBM, and also for understanding real-life long term relationships, and one that may be discussed tastefully and discretely.

I was working for a year or so with a man in his 40s who had been gay all his life.  I knew him well enough to ask him various questions which he was glad to answer. One question was, "In the average longterm relationship, who does what to whom?"  He answered that that there are rare couples where one is always one role. Then he giggled and said, "For the majority of couples, each parterner takes turns in all conceivable roles. Its all so darn much fun, who would want to miss out on any of it!"

He did share with me that one of his early experiences was with a man who was so forceful, that it caused him to bleed.  He made the man stop and leave. His partner could not understand why he never wanted to see him again.  He sustained such an injury, that for the rest of his life, there was some tissue that was noticably in the way. Yet he never went to a doctor for the injury. 

I once had occasion to talk to a surgeon who regulary treated problems of the large intestine. I asked him if, in his practice, he often saw injuries caused by sexual activity. His face became very somber, and he said, "Oh, I have seen patients who have literally destroyed themselves."

There was one famous political figure in New York, who died of AIDS within the past 10 years.  I cant remember his name. He wrote a biography of his life. One point that he made was that he had only once in his life been the receiver, and it was painful for him, so he never repeated that experience, but for the rest of his life participated only in orally.  His point was that he did contract AIDS from the oral sex, and therefore, it is a myth that it cannot be contracted orally.  Obviously there are people who choose for one reason or another, to restrict their sexual activity to oral practices.


Obviously, people who choose to see Brokeback Mountain, who are not gay, may be quite ignorant of what takes place in a gay or lesbian relationship.  While strictly speaking, it should not be necessary to have such an understanding to appreciate the movie, yet still some people may be curious, and a better understanding of such things may enhance they enjoyment of the movie and even promote greater tolerance among the straight community.

You know, I have two cousins, brother and sister, who grew up and lived all their lives on a dairy farm. The brother is 15 years older than my 58, and the sister is about 5 years older.  She married a man and had a daughter with him. It was not her first marriage.  He was a house and barn painter by trade, a very manly and personable fellow. But he was secretly bi-sexual.  She live with that secret for years and told no one.  Her husband got into trouble with drugs and alcohol, and got into serious debt. They divorced, and for spite, he began to flaunt his now openly gay lifestyle in the small farm town where everyone knew everyone else.  When asked how she had felt during the marriage, she said it was ok as long as he always came back to her.   I asked her brother, my cousin, how old he was when he realized that there are men who have sex with other men.  He said he did not know that until he was 30, and just could not understand it.

« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2006, 04:41 PM by Sitaram »
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Offline Kindred

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #12 on: Jan 24, 2006, 04:20 PM »
Quite honestly, my question is not out of curiosity regarding gay sexual relationships. 

I see myself very much in Ennis and I'm straight.  Given the personality type, given the situation, I don't think I would have acted in the same way.  I think it would have taken active coaxing by the other person first, regardless of positions.  However, I seem to be in the minority in this opinion.

Offline Toadily

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #13 on: Jan 24, 2006, 04:28 PM »
Well Annie Proulx is a poet too, so some of her writing isn't logical in a way.  I think that is how she envisioned two guys first time, not necessarily right but I can see she was aiming at it not being romantic, and being quick. 
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Offline Sitaram

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #14 on: Jan 24, 2006, 04:29 PM »
Given the personality type, given the situation, I don't think I would have acted in the same way.  I think it would have taken active coaxing by the other person first, regardless of positions.

Reading the above sentence made me suddenly realize something. We know that at an early age, Ennis saw the gay man in a ditch, murdered and mutilated. Surely as the years past by, he must have given that a lot of thought.  He must have become conscious of the details of homosexual activity.  Perhaps no coaxing was necessary, because he had thought about it for years, as something forbidden.  We can never know. Perhaps he fantasized about it.   If such fantasy took place, then it would not have been an alien notion to Ennis, requiring coaxing.

Even Proulx, in her story, mentions that the act, although new to Ennis, did not take an instruction manual.

Just my speculation, but it is worth considering.

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sharve

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #15 on: Jan 24, 2006, 05:00 PM »
Given the personality type, given the situation, I don't think I would have acted in the same way.  I think it would have taken active coaxing by the other person first, regardless of positions.

Reading the above sentence made me suddenly realize something. We know that at an early age, Ennis saw the gay man in a ditch, murdered and mutilated. Surely as the years past by, he must have given that a lot of thought.  He must have become conscious of the details of homosexual activity.  Perhaps no coaxing was necessary, because he had thought about it for years, as something forbidden.  We can never know. Perhaps he fantasized about it.   If such fantasy took place, then it would not have been an alien notion to Ennis, requiring coaxing.

Even Proulx, in her story, mentions that the act, although new to Ennis, did not take an instruction manual.

Just my speculation, but it is worth considering.



Don't forget that in the short story, Ennis preferred anal intercourse with his wife:
  "A slow corrosion worked between Ennis and Alma...Under her breath she said, 'Id have em if you could support em.'
   And under that, thought, anyway, what you like to do don't make too many babies."
We get a hint of this in the movie, sometime early on in their marriage when he flips Alma over and she has a query look in her eyes. At that scene I thought that though he was with Alma his soul was elsewhere on BBM.

Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #16 on: Jan 24, 2006, 08:24 PM »
I was not surprised with Ennis's role in the first tent scene. I was probably more surprised at how primal this scene was. Maybe I half-way expected Jack to do a little more coaxing.  As it turned out, there was no need.  Regardless of this being Ennis's first time (and I'm convinced it was) he knew what role he was going to take.  I don't think Jack had a problem with the outcome.  Ennis may have needed to process what happened the night before, but who noticed how "peacefully" Jack was sleeping the next morning?

Just an observation!  ;)
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Offline rabjr1

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #17 on: Jan 24, 2006, 11:03 PM »
yes, he did have that "freshly f***ed" look on his face, didn't he?
.  Been there done that - even in a tent.
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Offline jakeofrome

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #18 on: Jan 24, 2006, 11:29 PM »
I was not surprised with Ennis's role in the first tent scene. I was probably more surprised at how primal this scene was. Maybe I half-way expected Jack to do a little more coaxing.  As it turned out, there was no need.  Regardless of this being Ennis's first time (and I'm convinced it was) he knew what role he was going to take.  I don't think Jack had a problem with the outcome.  Ennis may have needed to process what happened the night before, but who noticed how "peacefully" Jack was sleeping the next morning?

Just an observation!  ;)

I had some surprise when I first read the short story - that was before watching the movie. All the surprise was indeed about how primal it was - but it made perfectly sense to me. We can't say if Jack had previous experience for sure (at least I always thought it was his first time when reading the book - while Gyllenhaal in interviews says that "it's implied that he had experience in the past" or something oike this) but I think we agree to a certain extent that Ennis didn't. Well the way it is narrated in the short story makes perfect sense to me. On the contrary, I was a bit skeptical with Ennis asking Jake "what are you doing?" in the movie (from what he does immediately afterwards, he probably had a very clear idea of what Jack was doing).
What I found extermely powerful in the short story was the repentine switch - Jake bring Ennis' hand "to his erect c*ck" and suddenly get "to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all
fours".
It is being discussed on some other topic if the "what are you doing" bit is indeed part of the screenplay (if I am correct, reports say it is - but I also remember the scene being commented during the shooting with abstracts from the screenplay posted on websites and the phrase was not there).

Anyway, I don't think we have anything related to some "male" or "female" roles of sort. Just don't get me wrong but this kind of perspective has a huge risk of having things seen as cliches. I can say that there is nothing weird that someone who takes the initiative (Jack) ends up "receiving" (sorry but I can't help smiling as I barely happened to see it described in such terms). In other words, Jack manages to have Ennis do what he wants him to do - don't think he is sorry at all to be in such a position.

But to make my rant stop, jus let me say we could speculate for hours or days on such a subject. I don't think usual "gay relationship and sexual habits" theories apply that much to the story and foremost that Annie had any interest in depicting a gay love story. This is really a story of two men who fall in love with each other, if this makes them "gay", fine, but there's much more than that.

Sorry for being so long  :)
"I loved it. Shocking. Surprising. The guy who financed my movie did that too. He's a very mild mannered chap from Minnesota and we'd just screened the latest cut of my film and he asked if I wanted to see it. I was thinking, 'OK, this really square, straight guy,' and he showed me this movie. It's amazing.

"They're really good those boys and they did a great job. It's very brave of them."

Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #19 on: Jan 24, 2006, 11:50 PM »

But to make my rant stop, jus let me say we could speculate for hours or days on such a subject. I don't think usual "gay relationship and sexual habits" theories apply that much to the story and foremost that Annie had any interest in depicting a gay love story. This is really a story of two men who fall in love with each other, if this makes them "gay", fine, but there's much more than that.

Sorry for being so long  :)

Well said.  The primary characters are men, but the heart of this story is love. I don't know when I've seen it more beautifully and painfully depicted.
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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #20 on: Jan 24, 2006, 11:53 PM »
yes, he did have that "freshly f***ed" look on his face, didn't he?
.  Been there done that - even in a tent.

I just watched the first tent scene ... and nearly fell off my seat.  :o I love how when Jack pulls Ennis's arm over his his waist and puts his hand (you know where) Ennis appears to be partly awake but still has his eyes closed. Then he settles down against Jack and (the part I love) suddenly you can see the exact moment it registers on his face as to where his hand is. He then just jumps sky high away from Jack ... or as a like to think of it "The mile high club" and Jack goes right after him. As for the sex part ... WOAH!!! I didn't see that much coming I mean I ... I ... i'm speechless. I really can't find words to describe that scene. I love the acting in the morning. Ennis had, as Rabjr said a morning after sex look on his face and Jack definately looked a bit sore between the thighs as he walked out of the tent.

All in all .... Woah!! and yeah Woah!!  :o :o :-*

« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2006, 12:02 AM by greenfrog »

Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #21 on: Jan 25, 2006, 12:01 AM »
yes, he did have that "freshly f***ed" look on his face, didn't he?
.  Been there done that - even in a tent.

Just saw your reply a few minutes ago.  I laughed so hard I'm sure I awoke my neighbors in the adjacent apartment.  ;)

Thank you.  I needed that!  ;D

Jarrad
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Offline jason

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #22 on: Jan 25, 2006, 02:27 AM »
yes, he did have that "freshly f***ed" look on his face, didn't he?
.  Been there done that - even in a tent.

Yeah, I had that impression too.  Good observation.  Maybe that's the screensaver ...

No one has commented on Jack choking out at the crucial moment on the first night, from the story, "gun's goin' off."  This was a jarring note when I read the book after seeing the movie 2 or 3 times. Felt a bit flippant maybe. (And by the way, supports the idea of Jack bringing some experience to the scene). 

I got the exact opposite feeling from the movie. 

The book and screenplay try to do different things.  For me, the the movie has even less elaboration than the book, an even tighter focus on the love theme than the story has (despite expanding on life with the respective wives).  And the feeling Ang decided on was one of high seriousness in the first sex scenes, I think, and rightly for the movie.  That's what gives these scenes such drama and resonance for me.  This isn't cheap sex. The still shots from the movie on some website --  you can miss it in the movie tho the feeling is established -- as Jack draws Ennis in on the second night, show Jack with such a look of seriousness and intensity on his face as he rivets his eyes on Ennis.  He knows they could be letting themselves in for the big time.

So the movie and the book diverge here.  Annie is done with the scene faster than the movie, and tosses the sex off more lightly.  She has more space to operate in print and can change the pace and feeling later. Ang really only has one big cadence to work with in a 2 1/4 hour movie.
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Offline rabjr1

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #23 on: Jan 25, 2006, 05:34 AM »
I think "gun's going off" was excluded form the scene because as brief as it is it is too much dialogue in the scene and would have been a distraction form it.

again there is more said with a glance than one word. or three.

Segue into scenes: What about the smoking after in the motel?  I thought it was stereotypical"

"do you smoke after sex?'
"I don;t know, I never looked"

Saw the movie last night with a manic depressive, am gettting over it (the manic depressive not tha movie.)




 
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Offline rabjr1

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #24 on: Jan 25, 2006, 05:36 AM »
Disclaimer.  I am not a guy.; )
I have read that an expereicned gay man who is seducing another man into a first sexsual experience, takes it, not gives it.

Sorry if this sounds vulgar. I do not mean it as such.
J

  That wold be an old husbands tale.
RAB aka Raoul The Really Rotten

Offline j

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #25 on: Jan 25, 2006, 09:42 AM »
AHHHH OK ,thanks,just heard it from some of my gay friends who had never been married. ; )
J

Offline jakeofrome

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #26 on: Jan 25, 2006, 09:49 AM »
Ok after watching the movie another time I noticed that "waht are you doing" is also what Ennis asks Cassie when she asks him for a foot massage - meaning the second time a partner takes action with him first - I quite like the similarity.
"I loved it. Shocking. Surprising. The guy who financed my movie did that too. He's a very mild mannered chap from Minnesota and we'd just screened the latest cut of my film and he asked if I wanted to see it. I was thinking, 'OK, this really square, straight guy,' and he showed me this movie. It's amazing.

"They're really good those boys and they did a great job. It's very brave of them."

Offline tpe

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #27 on: Jan 25, 2006, 11:15 AM »
Ok after watching the movie another time I noticed that "waht are you doing" is also what Ennis asks Cassie when she asks him for a foot massage - meaning the second time a partner takes action with him first - I quite like the similarity.


Slightly tangential to this topic, but yes, I like the repeated usage of certain phrases during certain situations.

For example: Alma says 'Come here' to Ennis when they start making love; Jack also uses this phrase on various occassions, I believe.  Also, Jack is always heard saying 'It's alright' to Ennis during the love and fight scenes.

Offline coguaro

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #28 on: Jan 25, 2006, 12:00 PM »
Yes... I agree...
I think that Ennis lack of sexual/physcal initiative could also be interpreted from a general and not only, closely, from a sexual point of view.
Considering his difficulty to "give love"  and to open his heart and mind to other people it is possible that by analogy he had some difficult to loss inhibition and to give spontaneously pleasure to other people. He need to be "activated" by someone to pull outside his wild element.

Baci
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Offline Hermes1

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Re: Something that surprised me re: First tent scene - Spoiler
« Reply #29 on: Jan 27, 2006, 02:40 AM »
Let's not forget here a very important clue in the book about Ennis's status as a "top" or "bottom."  There's a passage (and I don't have the book in front of me at the moment so I'm paraphrasing here) where Jack says to Ennis after they have had sex in the motel, "Must be all them years a horseback make it so goddamn good!"  Jack is talking to Ennis here about Ennis' years on horseback.  Jack and Ennis' sexual chemistry is very strong.  Ennis is the top.  Jack the bottom.  Ennis treats Jack as if Jack is the submissive one.  Do you remember (omitted in the film also) that Ennis calls Jack "Little Darlin'" -- something he only said to his daughters or horses (I believe) but not to his wife.  Ennis only knows being a man in the traditional way.  He conquers Jack.  But Jack let Ennis take control of him sexually.  Why else would he have not fought Ennis off of him in that first tent scene?  Jack started to unbuckle his pants, but if you noticed in that tent scene, he was a little lower when facing Ennis - in a little weaker position - so it was easier to subdue Jack that way.  This is not an uncommon phenomenon between gay men when determining who will take what role (at least in the beginning). Plus, in the book, Annie makes it clear that Ennis "would have none of that" when Jack started to head toward being the aggressor.  I remember reading something saying that Ennis had never had intercourse with a guy but that "no instruction manual was needed."  Clearly, Jack and Ennis had that healthy mix of "ying and yang" so that the complemented each other in love and in sex.  This is such a brilliant story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What are you waiting for cowboy?  A mating call?