Author Topic: keeper of the fire  (Read 12870 times)

Offline kcristob

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keeper of the fire
« on: Jan 25, 2006, 12:36 PM »
I watched it again last night.  4th time.  I had several new awarenesses and my despair at the end of the movie was actually less than the other three times.  I mean, I've realized that the movie is not going to change for me, no matter how much I want it to.  It's going to be what it is, and so I was able to enjoy the first 2/3rds of it more - appreciating what they had, and enjoying the fun they shared.

But, I did have a new "aha" moment with 4th viewing:

For the first 2/3rds of the movie - until the painful last parting scene, I see Jack as the "keeper of the fire."  He's the one initiating contact (with Ennis willingly joining him); he's the romantic one, who has more of a need for Ennis than Ennis has for him (this is debatable - but it's my take on it).  It's Jack meeting Ennis on Ennis' terms.

THEN, the painful last parting scene, there is a shift:  1)  Ennis finally admits his need for Jack, and 
2)  Jack finally gets kind of fed up with Ennis' unwillingness to be together.  Jack begins an affair with the rancher.  This affair is a big change.  I mean it's that discussion about whether he gave up on Ennis or not (I don't think he did).

After that - it's ENNIS who initiates contact (when he doesn't hear from Jack).  This is the first time he has initiated contact.

And then, [I hope I can put this into words]:  even though Ennis knows that jack has been with another man - even planning a future with him possibly, Ennis' love for Jack is stronger than ever.

Macho Ennis - who has already told Jack he'd kill him if he knew he was with another man - DOES finally know, and it only makes him love Jack more!!!!!  Ennis is finally meeting Jack on Jack's terms.

Who could have expected this from that young Ennis? 

I hope this makes some kind of sense. 




Offline Toadily

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #1 on: Jan 25, 2006, 12:50 PM »
That's really a good observation.  Yeah it's like he sort of bends a bit doesn't he? Yeah,  I don't fully see Jack as the instigator anymore.
Cause there was so much unspoken, yeah he writes to Ennis etc but it wasn't like Ennis wasn't pining for him (which makes Gene Shalit's review all that more enigmatical...but that's OT so I won't go on here)

And the news of the rancher may have made Ennis accept how sick it was they weren't together.  Maybe he should travel more than just "around a coffee pot" and have tried to make a life with Jack....etc.
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Offline tpe

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #2 on: Jan 25, 2006, 01:11 PM »
Yes, I agree.  In the end, Ennis did come to a full realization of how much he loved Jack and regretted not having affirmed it.  As was commented on in the screenplay, Brokeback Mountain is gone -- what remains of its power are the two shirts that Ennis now treasures.  In every sense, he is now the keeper of the fire...
« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2006, 01:14 PM by tpe »

Offline proulxfan

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #3 on: Jan 28, 2006, 03:11 PM »
I believe the scene between Jack and the rancher occurs before Jack and Ennis's final confrontation. Ennis doesn't learn about the rancher until he visits Jack's parents. One of the things Ennis learns in this scene is that Jack has been more open about his relationship with Ennis with his parents than Ennis has been with anyone in his life. He was not ashamed of their love and appears to even have "bragged on " Ennis a little with his folks. There is also the possibility that he has confided even more about their relationship to his mother, leading to her suggestion to Ennis to visit Jack's room.
This coupled with the discovery of the shirts I think slams home for Ennis how deep Jack's feelings were for him, and were not changed by Jack's  contacts with other men. And Ennis may have been partially blinded to this fact through the years by his unspoken jealousy about Jack's trips to Mexico.
I think Ennis comes to a realization of how much he loved Jack via the revelation of how much Jack loved him.
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline ragtimecowboy

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #4 on: Jan 28, 2006, 03:20 PM »
I'll say jack nasty fanned those flames and kept those coals glowing for 20 years.

Offline ethan

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #5 on: Jan 28, 2006, 03:35 PM »
I'll say jack nasty fanned those flames and kept those coals glowing for 20 years.

This is so unfair. He drove 14 hours to Wyoming after Ennis's divorce and only to drive away brokenhearted. This got me thinking - Jack didn't seem to have problem meeting others. He's tried to pick up the rodeo clown and been to Mexico and this Randall. It is just amazing to me that he has fanned flames for 20 years. It is hard for me to comprehend. But if you love someone that much, everything is possible.

Many good posts in this topic. The more I talk about this movie, the more I am aggravated toward Ennis. Jack sees Ennis but not the other around. Until Ennis realized - it is too late.  :'( Why is this always the case in life? Sorry if I sounded emotional.

Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline rabjr1

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #6 on: Jan 28, 2006, 07:10 PM »
I'll say jack nasty fanned those flames and kept those coals glowing for 20 years.

This is so unfair. He drove 14 hours to Wyoming after Ennis's divorce and only to drive away brokenhearted. This got me thinking - Jack didn't seem to have problem meeting others. He's tried to pick up the rodeo clown and been to Mexico and this Randall. It is just amazing to me that he has fanned flames for 20 years. It is hard for me to comprehend. But if you love someone that much, everything is possible.

Many good posts in this topic. The more I talk about this movie, the more I am aggravated toward Ennis. Jack sees Ennis but not the other around. Until Ennis realized - it is too late.  :'( Why is this always the case in life? Sorry if I sounded emotional.


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Offline ethan

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #7 on: Jan 28, 2006, 10:36 PM »
                            "You don't know what you got till it's gone..." 
                                            Joni Mitchell

Great quote. It happens all too often.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline rikcub

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #8 on: Jan 28, 2006, 10:39 PM »
I watched it again last night.  4th time.  I had several new awarenesses and my despair at the end of the movie was actually less than the other three times.  I mean, I've realized that the movie is not going to change for me, no matter how much I want it to.  It's going to be what it is, and so I was able to enjoy the first 2/3rds of it more - appreciating what they had, and enjoying the fun they shared.

But, I did have a new "aha" moment with 4th viewing:

For the first 2/3rds of the movie - until the painful last parting scene, I see Jack as the "keeper of the fire."  He's the one initiating contact (with Ennis willingly joining him); he's the romantic one, who has more of a need for Ennis than Ennis has for him (this is debatable - but it's my take on it).  It's Jack meeting Ennis on Ennis' terms.

THEN, the painful last parting scene, there is a shift:  1)  Ennis finally admits his need for Jack, and 
2)  Jack finally gets kind of fed up with Ennis' unwillingness to be together.  Jack begins an affair with the rancher.  This affair is a big change.  I mean it's that discussion about whether he gave up on Ennis or not (I don't think he did).

After that - it's ENNIS who initiates contact (when he doesn't hear from Jack).  This is the first time he has initiated contact.

And then, [I hope I can put this into words]:  even though Ennis knows that jack has been with another man - even planning a future with him possibly, Ennis' love for Jack is stronger than ever.

Macho Ennis - who has already told Jack he'd kill him if he knew he was with another man - DOES finally know, and it only makes him love Jack more!!!!!  Ennis is finally meeting Jack on Jack's terms.

Who could have expected this from that young Ennis? 

I hope this makes some kind of sense. 





It does make sense.  I thought much the same thing...in the scene of their last meeting you can see the sadness and resignation on Jack's face as he watches Ennis drive away.  He doesn't give up his love...but I think he did make the decision to let go of BBM and try to make a life without Ennis.  Of course at that point Ennis finally steps up and contacts Jack...only to receive the postcard back with the stamp DECEASED.  Another of the great tragedies of this story...Ennis was perhaps starting to come around...and it was simly to late.

Offline Toadily

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #9 on: Jan 28, 2006, 10:44 PM »
Really good comments, yeah would another get together have been good for them?  I think so, but Jack was starting to reject his false life and want something authentic.  Willing to risk it w/o Ennis if need be, that is a very dangerous road for him, and led to his death.
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Offline proulxfan

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #10 on: Jan 29, 2006, 09:26 AM »
I don't think Ennis ever does meet Jack on Jack's terms. Sorry. When he sends the postcard, it is only to inform Jack that he still won't be able to meet with him until November. Having heard Jack's revelations in their final confrontation, he might have invited Jack to come and stay with him for a few days that summer, with the understanding that they could only be together after Ennis got off work, and would probably be too tiired to do much other than sleep, but I think Jack would have been there in a heartbeat if the offer had been extended.
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

tweric

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #11 on: Jan 29, 2006, 02:05 PM »
Hm... I believe that last post card Ennis sent was his way of saying "Baby, I am sorry I really can't make it in August. I talked to my boss and tried to squeeze my time out,  but there's just no way..."

If I'm really selfish and must have Jack to meet me on my terms 100%, then I don't have to do anything and will just wait till Nov because I already told Jack it's Nov...
« Last Edit: Jan 29, 2006, 02:07 PM by tweric »

Offline dblippy

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #12 on: Jan 29, 2006, 03:47 PM »
Hi,

All of these posts are great. When I watched the Movie, the end made me feel so sad and sorry that people allow themselves to be defined by the expectations of others. We have all been asked by relatives " when are you settling down ?"  "isn't it time you were courting?". ( Dating to our american friends ).

Ennis was not a weak man, to him being with Jack properly was as impossible as going to the Moon. He allowed the expectations of his kids, his dead father, his boss and his self image stop him from being with the one and only person he had ever truly loved. That horrible trailer is all he had in the end and all because we allow people to judge us and rule by expectation and tradition.

After I watched the film it left me with a feeling of wanting to change my life, I love my family and parents but at the end of the day I love me more. Life is so short and you only get one chance. My parents know that I am gay but we don't talk about it. I haven't met anyone or been in a relationship for years as I have allowed myself to conform to what is expected of me! NOT ANYMORE, NO WAY!

David

Offline ethan

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #13 on: Jan 29, 2006, 04:50 PM »
After I watched the film it left me with a feeling of wanting to change my life, I love my family and parents but at the end of the day I love me more. Life is so short and you only get one chance. My parents know that I am gay but we don't talk about it. I haven't met anyone or been in a relationship for years as I have allowed myself to conform to what is expected of me! NOT ANYMORE, NO WAY!

David

You are right, David. It may be a bumpy ride but at the end it is worth it. Best to you and be the keeper of the fire.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline rikcub

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #14 on: Jan 29, 2006, 07:15 PM »
Really good comments, yeah would another get together have been good for them?  I think so, but Jack was starting to reject his false life and want something authentic.  Willing to risk it w/o Ennis if need be, that is a very dangerous road for him, and led to his death.

After my 4th viewing today I have to agree that another get together would have been significant and here is why.  It was Ennis that sent the last postcard, not Jack,  and what I noticed today in the ALL TOO BRIEF moments it was shown was that it seemed to say something like "What about November? For you I will get the cabin" (this is paraphrased).  FOR YOU???  Those words from Ennis...that is a major milestone...he is starting to move toward some level of responsibiity in the relationship.  Also think back to the original postcard...Ennis replies.."You bet".  Two words in the whole thing vs. 2 to 3 lines on the last one.  That is a major step for this man of very few words.  Ennis was making headway at the same point in time that Jack was letting go....Jeeeez Louise...could it get anymore heart wrenching?  :'(

manhattangirl

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« Reply #15 on: Jan 15, 2007, 05:45 PM »
Hi,

Jack couldn't ride very well, he couldn't shoot very well, he sure couldn't sing and he couldn't use a can opener. But, he was good at love.  He loved Ennis purely, deeply, longingly, till the day he died.  You could tell that when Ennis came back after being thrown from the horse, Jack dipped his scarf in the boiling water to clean Ennis's wound. 

Jack was definitely the force in this relationship.


Manhattangirl

Offline jacks_key

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Re: He was inept in a lot of things, but not love.
« Reply #16 on: Jan 15, 2007, 06:38 PM »
So true...!  That's the one thing they were both very good at - loving each other.   :^^)
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Offline tpe

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Re: He was inept in a lot of things, but not love.
« Reply #17 on: Jan 16, 2007, 10:05 AM »
Hi,

Jack couldn't ride very well, he couldn't shoot very well, he sure couldn't sing and he couldn't use a can opener. But, he was good at love.  He loved Ennis purely, deeply, longingly, till the day he died.  You could tell that when Ennis came back after being thrown from the horse, Jack dipped his scarf in the boiling water to clean Ennis's wound. 

Jack was definitely the force in this relationship.


Manhattangirl

He was also the sting.  For a long time, he bore a lot of the pain relating to its inability to go any further.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #18 on: Jan 16, 2007, 01:03 PM »
After 20 years Jack and Ennis were like a married couple. They were used to each other in ways that only people who have grown together can be. But by the last meeting Jack, indeed the keeper of the fire , felt Ennis slipping away further into his paranoia putting their meetings further apart giving him a sense that the fire was at an ember stage . They were going backwards instead of forward. Both their demands were legit. Jack wanted and needed more time with Ennis and Ennis could'nt get the time off or quit to be with Jack.
Jack's "better idea" of a cow and calf operation  together would have released them both from the dilema they faced. It would satisfy both their needs at the same time making them self-sufficent. Ennis shoulda gave it a shot imo.
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Offline tpe

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #19 on: Jan 17, 2007, 09:03 AM »
After 20 years Jack and Ennis were like a married couple. They were used to each other in ways that only people who have grown together can be. But by the last meeting Jack, indeed the keeper of the fire , felt Ennis slipping away further into his paranoia putting their meetings further apart giving him a sense that the fire was at an ember stage . They were going backwards instead of forward. Both their demands were legit. Jack wanted and needed more time with Ennis and Ennis could'nt get the time off or quit to be with Jack.
Jack's "better idea" of a cow and calf operation  together would have released them both from the dilema they faced. It would satisfy both their needs at the same time making them self-sufficent. Ennis shoulda gave it a shot imo.

Both certainly loved each other and were loathe to sever the bond that linked the two of them.  But in this, Jack was the more active while Ennis the more passive.  As I has mentioned previously, for Ennis, he wanted to preserve and protect the relationship -- even if this meant keeping an unsatisfactory status quo -- from a hostile world.  For Jack it was taking the next step of a shared life.  In a sense, both considered themselves to be keepers of the flame.  It is trgic that they misunderstood each other's intentions and desires.


Offline yncroger

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #20 on: Jan 22, 2007, 11:45 PM »
Ennis is afraid of life, Jack was not.  Ennis may have been coming to the realization that he really loved Jack, but he would never go against his beliefs that men did not live together.  Jack was the keeper of a very hot fire, Ennis could never be a keeper of the fire.   :\'( :\'( :\'(

Offline tpe

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #21 on: Jan 23, 2007, 08:26 AM »
Ennis is afraid of life, Jack was not.  Ennis may have been coming to the realization that he really loved Jack, but he would never go against his beliefs that men did not live together.  Jack was the keeper of a very hot fire, Ennis could never be a keeper of the fire.   :\'( :\'( :\'(


Welcome, yncroger.

After Jack's death, I think almost nothing was felf of that fire -- only the embers, so to speak.  But I do think that after Jack's death, Ennis kept the embers glowing.  Perhaps it was sufficient to warm the heart.


Offline jackster

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #22 on: Jan 23, 2007, 07:08 PM »
The Ennis Defense

I think maybe poor Ennis is getting the short end of an undeserved stick here. Remember he’s the 9-year-old kid who’s proudly shown a dead man who was brutally killed and castrated for just living with another man. Huh? And he say’s in their final confrontation “in them earlier days I’d just quit the job” – He QUIT his job to be with Jack, apparently more than once. He’s dirt poor and providing support for two kids yet would quit to be able spend more time with Jack. That takes some devotion. Some of his problems may have been of his own making, but conversely what would Jack be doing (or able to do) if he hadn’t been lucky enough to marry some money and a good job. It wasn’t till Jack had the benefit of some additional cash that he was able to try and come back to Riverton, and at least he had some idea where Ennis might be. Ennis had no idea where Jack was rodeoing, as he say’s in the SS “I didn’t know where in the HELL you was”.

Like so much in life I think they were the yin and yang. Jack the spark, Ennis the fuel, neither much good without the other. Hope this doesn't sound like a rant.

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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #23 on: Jan 24, 2007, 04:37 AM »
I totally understand and agree with your comment Jackster. Ennis had real everyday problems.  Child support , an ex, and crappy paying jobs  to worry about.  He sacrificed a big part of his life too.  In a sense it can be said that Jack had it easier because of the money, but he was willing to give that all up for this man. He loved him. Indeed Ennis did bring alot of it on himself (like marrying Alma) but I think it was done in the most part as  him protecting Jack. assuring their safety. He kept the fire  that way I think>  It was essential that it be kept secret and not flaunted in any way. He was convinced that bad things would happen  if the wrong people found out.  He was protecting Jack by denying Jack but he loved him. It is not a good position to be in. IMO.
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Offline tpe

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #24 on: Jan 24, 2007, 08:17 AM »
The Ennis Defense

I think maybe poor Ennis is getting the short end of an undeserved stick here. Remember he’s the 9-year-old kid who’s proudly shown a dead man who was brutally killed and castrated for just living with another man. Huh? And he say’s in their final confrontation “in them earlier days I’d just quit the job” – He QUIT his job to be with Jack, apparently more than once. He’s dirt poor and providing support for two kids yet would quit to be able spend more time with Jack. That takes some devotion. Some of his problems may have been of his own making, but conversely what would Jack be doing (or able to do) if he hadn’t been lucky enough to marry some money and a good job. It wasn’t till Jack had the benefit of some additional cash that he was able to try and come back to Riverton, and at least he had some idea where Ennis might be. Ennis had no idea where Jack was rodeoing, as he say’s in the SS “I didn’t know where in the HELL you was”.

Like so much in life I think they were the yin and yang. Jack the spark, Ennis the fuel, neither much good without the other. Hope this doesn't sound like a rant.

jackster

Hello jackster.  I don't think it was the intention of many to castigate Ennis on this score.  As I had said previously, it was just a matter of understanding how each one (Jack and Ennis) tried to preserve the relationship.  Ennis took a more defensive approach, whereas Jack took a more aggressive one.  Both thought they were keeping the flame of the relationship alive, but it was unfortunate that each misunderstood the other's intentions.


Offline ragtimecowboy

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #25 on: Aug 23, 2007, 10:45 PM »
   If you love someone, set them free, if they come back to you, then their love is truly yours, if they don't it never was. Ennis found out that Jack had set him free from Stud Duck while sittin' at the kitchen table. At that moment the flame was passed to Ennis, after it seared him a little, it grew even larger and was nurtured by him for the rest of his life. Too sad Jack wasn't alive to get that call and find this out.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: keeper of the fire
« Reply #26 on: Aug 24, 2007, 03:40 PM »
I watched it again last night.  4th time.  I had several new awarenesses and my despair at the end of the movie was actually less than the other three times.  I mean, I've realized that the movie is not going to change for me, no matter how much I want it to.  It's going to be what it is, and so I was able to enjoy the first 2/3rds of it more - appreciating what they had, and enjoying the fun they shared.

But, I did have a new "aha" moment with 4th viewing:

For the first 2/3rds of the movie - until the painful last parting scene, I see Jack as the "keeper of the fire."  He's the one initiating contact (with Ennis willingly joining him); he's the romantic one, who has more of a need for Ennis than Ennis has for him (this is debatable - but it's my take on it).  It's Jack meeting Ennis on Ennis' terms.

THEN, the painful last parting scene, there is a shift:  1)  Ennis finally admits his need for Jack, and 
2)  Jack finally gets kind of fed up with Ennis' unwillingness to be together.  Jack begins an affair with the rancher.  This affair is a big change.  I mean it's that discussion about whether he gave up on Ennis or not (I don't think he did).

After that - it's ENNIS who initiates contact (when he doesn't hear from Jack).  This is the first time he has initiated contact.

And then, [I hope I can put this into words]:  even though Ennis knows that jack has been with another man - even planning a future with him possibly, Ennis' love for Jack is stronger than ever.

Macho Ennis - who has already told Jack he'd kill him if he knew he was with another man - DOES finally know, and it only makes him love Jack more!!!!!  Ennis is finally meeting Jack on Jack's terms.

Who could have expected this from that young Ennis? 

I hope this makes some kind of sense. 





I agree .it seemed Jack was the keeper of the fire by his sheer pursuit of happiness with Ennis. But it was the Pine Creek postcard that says to me that after all was said and done it was Ennis who sought Jack out in the end . He still loved him, wanted to see him again . Wanted to keep loving him.

By then it was too late, but had they met , I am led to believe  that Ennis  surely knew Jack was not going to continue with the status quo as it was. Had taken Jack's words seriously. and  the fact that it was he ,who sought Jack out fits in with the pattern that Ennis has established for himself.  Jack presents him with the truth about himself, Ennis retreats into himself to what-if to death .then comes to a decision based on his undeniable love for Jack , and then he always comes back. Well he had plenty of time ti think, dissolves his affair with Cassie and it seems based on these actions, Ennis was gonna try in some way to accept Jack's plans, in what form? I don't know, but rather than let Jack quit him ,just like as he sat on the log contemplating what he said he'd never do,  (SNIT)I think he was gonna go for it.  What else could Ennis do? I still think he was gonna give Jack some form of that sweet life Jack wanted. He was gonna cave in my opinion, but again, a little too late. Fate intervenes.

 Now HIS dream is destroyed in what some say is a fate worst than death. MO.  a :( tragedy.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...