Author Topic: carrying the lamb  (Read 16341 times)

Offline kcristob

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carrying the lamb
« on: Jan 25, 2006, 02:39 PM »
I'd like to hear from others out there about the injured (?) lamb.  I haven't seen this addressed specifically so, I hope I'm not repeating a topic that's out there.

When Ennis and Jack are traveling up the mountain - Jack is carrying the (I'm assuming) injured lamb.  BUT, I think I see that Ennis has the lamb in a sack on the side of this horse at one point?  Am I right?


Offline Toadily

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #1 on: Jan 25, 2006, 02:40 PM »
I'd like to hear from others out there about the injured (?) lamb.  I haven't seen this addressed specifically so, I hope I'm not repeating a topic that's out there.

When Ennis and Jack are traveling up the mountain - Jack is carrying the (I'm assuming) injured lamb.  BUT, I think I see that Ennis has the lamb in a sack on the side of this horse at one point?  Am I right?



I think they were different lambs, but I could be wrong...
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Offline tpe

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #2 on: Jan 25, 2006, 02:47 PM »
Sheep herders do this to sheep that have fallen ill or are injured.

The screenplay, for example, tells us that when Joe Aguirre focuses his binoculars up towards Ennis (in the scene where he tells Jack about his sick uncle), Ennis, we are told, appears like a model and dutiful sheep herder.  This is visually manifested by showing Ledger on horseback with a sick sheep cradled on his lap.

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #3 on: Jan 25, 2006, 03:04 PM »
I'd like to hear from others out there about the injured (?) lamb.  I haven't seen this addressed specifically so, I hope I'm not repeating a topic that's out there.

When Ennis and Jack are traveling up the mountain - Jack is carrying the (I'm assuming) injured lamb.  BUT, I think I see that Ennis has the lamb in a sack on the side of this horse at one point?  Am I right?



I don't think it's the same, it's possible though.

nb: to avoid distraction among sheep (can happen! ;D )  during long journeys, some lambs would be removed/seperated from the mothers..so that they would not stop every 5 minutes to feed, cause distraction for other sheep...Has been done for cows too.
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Offline bubu

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #4 on: Jan 25, 2006, 10:16 PM »

..or could it simply be that the one he carries will be later on served for dinner ?   :P

Offline jimnick

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #5 on: Jan 25, 2006, 10:25 PM »

..or could it simply be that the one he carries will be later on served for dinner ?   :P

This is from "Quotes", but fits in with your train of thought:

 Re: Quotes
« Reply #96 on: Yesterday at 07:50:31pm »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What was it they said when they were on the mountain and they were sick of eating beans...  Jack said something about killing and eating one of the sheep.  And, Ennis said that they were getting paid to watch the sheep, not eat them.  Or, maybe the otherway around.  Anyway,  If they had killed and eaten a sheep, then, they could have said "I love ewe!!!!!"

Ha ha ha

Jim

Offline Sitaram

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #6 on: Jan 26, 2006, 09:47 PM »
Shepherds, rescuing lost sheep, is a very Biblical image.  Moses left his flocks to approach the wondrous burning bush.

The final mention of sheep in the Old Testament is a verse which describes Israel as a flock scattered without a shepherd.  The first mention of sheep in the Gospels describes Christ seeing his people as sheep with no shepherd.

Ennis' wedding scene commences with the words "forgive us our trespasses.  The actual Greek of that prayer, "aphes emin ta ophelimata emon, os kai emeis epheiamen ta opheiletes emon"  (forgive us our debts which are owed, to the extent that we have forgiven those who were indebted to us, but failed to repay."

Technically, the English translation which we hear is a misunderstanding on the part of the translators of the King James version.

A trespass constitutes a wrong in its own right.  A debt is not a wrong, but something lacking, awaiting repayment.  We are permitted to borrow, but expected to repay.  A debt only requires forgiveness with age, when it remains too long unpaid.

Quote
Matt 18:23-35  When the King had begun to reconcile accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.  But because he couldn’t pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.  The servant therefore fell down and kneeled before him, saying, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will repay you all!’  The lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.  "But that servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, who owed him one hundred denarii, and he grabbed him, and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’  "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you!’  He would not, but went and cast him into prison, until he should pay back that which was due.  So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were exceedingly sorry, and came and told to their lord all that was done.  Then his lord called him in, and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt, because you begged me.  Shouldn’t you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?’ 

Perhaps our greatest debt which we owe to others is compassion, which is forgiveness itself; a debt which we can never repay our of the poverty of our mercy.

In the Greek of the New Testament, the word for mercy, which we hear to this day in the only Greek which survives in the Roman tradition, "Kyrie elaison" is almost identical to the Greek word for olive oil, elaion, which was used in lamps of ancient times, to shed light in the darkness, and is used to this day in Athens, as a word for olives, elitses, and for salad oil.

In the parable (Matt 25:1-13) of the ten virgins, five wise and five foolish, all ten possess the purity of virginity, and all possess oil for their lamps, as they await the bridegroom. The foolishness of the foolish virigins lies in the insufficiency of their oil (or mercy/forgiveness/compassion).

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« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2006, 10:20 PM by Sitaram »
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Offline AnitaSmith

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #7 on: Jan 27, 2006, 08:23 PM »
Shepherds, rescuing lost sheep, is a very Biblical image.

The image of Jack carrying the sheep so put me in mind of the Bible and the image of the Shepherd (Christ?) who rescues the sheep no matter how far they have strayed.  "He maketh me to lie down in green pastures . . . "

Offline rabjr1

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #8 on: Jan 27, 2006, 08:32 PM »
".... and the lamb will lay down with the lion.....but he won't get much sleep"
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Offline jimnick

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #9 on: Jan 27, 2006, 08:49 PM »
I heard that Mary had a little lamb, ...and some mint jelly.

Jim

Offline bnjmn3

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #10 on: Jan 27, 2006, 10:53 PM »
I appreciate the mention of the Biblical reference to sheep..huge imagery (innocence...something in need of care/saving). Our Shepherds are Jack and Ennis. I like that Jack is nursing the injured sheep while Ennis sits nearby...Jack suggests eating a sheep, but Ennis says no and kills the Elk.... after innocence is lost in the 1st tent scene we see a dead sheep...after the great storm the sheep wander and mix with different  sheep....and when our boys bring them down, Aguirre says that some of these sheep are not the same as the ones who left with you!  There is alot in the first 30 minutes of the film...
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Offline rabjr1

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #11 on: Jan 27, 2006, 11:20 PM »
I heard that Mary had a little lamb, ...and some mint jelly.

Jim

and boy were the doctors surprised
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Offline scruffy

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #12 on: Jan 28, 2006, 05:39 AM »
I've never hearded sheep but it's my understanding that baby and young sheep need help traveling long distances.  In that respect they are no different than small children who stall in their tracks until they're picked up.  Sheep also get rocks caught in their hooves, causing the sheep to limp and ache.  That is probably what Jack is taking out of the other sheep on the mountain.

I liked watching the guys carrying the little ones.  Is there anything more heartwarming than a grown man showing compassion to a baby animal???  Nah. 

Offline AnitaSmith

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #13 on: Jan 28, 2006, 09:22 AM »
I appreciate the mention of the Biblical reference to sheep..huge imagery (innocence...something in need of care/saving). Our Shepherds are Jack and Ennis. I like that Jack is nursing the injured sheep while Ennis sits nearby...Jack suggests eating a sheep, but Ennis says no and kills the Elk.... after innocence is lost in the 1st tent scene we see a dead sheep...after the great storm the sheep wander and mix with different  sheep....and when our boys bring them down, Aguirre says that some of these sheep are not the same as the ones who left with you!  There is alot in the first 30 minutes of the film...

There is, I think, a tremendous metaphor/message in the way that the two groups of sheep became mixed and it was difficult to determine what sheep belonged to what group.  The markings on the Jack/Ennis herd had begun to fade.  In that way, all the sheep became, for a while, one large group.  The sheep mingled and flowed together with no problem.  In a perfect world, human beings could do the same.

Offline Sitaram

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #14 on: Jan 28, 2006, 12:00 PM »
Great observation! The significance of the mingling sheep.   I am thinking of the parable of separating goats from sheep, and wheat from chaff. 
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Offline kcristob

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #15 on: Jan 28, 2006, 01:18 PM »
There is, I think, a tremendous metaphor/message in the way that the two groups of sheep became mixed and it was difficult to determine what sheep belonged to what group.  The markings on the Jack/Ennis herd had begun to fade.  In that way, all the sheep became, for a while, one large group.  The sheep mingled and flowed together with no problem.  In a perfect world, human beings could do the same..

Another way to interpret the mix up:  in the short story Annie (my bud, you know) writes :

"Even when the numbers were right Ennis knew the sheep were mixed. In a disquieting way everything seemed mixed. "

It's really not good that the sheep got mixed up.  It messes up their work, the cowboy's reputation, and the sheep are owned by different ranchers.  I mean, I can say it differently, but not better than Proulx's quote above.

But, don't interpret these comments to mean that I think Jack and Ennis should not have been together.  I wish I wish they had been.

Offline ranchgal

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #16 on: Jan 29, 2006, 03:11 PM »
You carry lambs across rough terrain, running water, or when they have to go to far--cause if they get too scared, or too tired ==they lay down and die.  And that is not why they take them up the mountain, so when they show signs of failing--you load them up and carry them.

they carried sheep across the creek because it is easier to grab them and take them across than argue with them, and they will run under your horses legs---so you have to do it by foot.
You can herd them to water, but you may have to MAKE them cross it.

Offline jimnick

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #17 on: Jan 29, 2006, 03:45 PM »
You carry lambs across rough terrain, running water, or when they have to go to far--cause if they get too scared, or too tired ==they lay down and die.  And that is not why they take them up the mountain, so when they show signs of failing--you load them up and carry them.

they carried sheep across the creek because it is easier to grab them and take them across than argue with them, and they will run under your horses legs---so you have to do it by foot.
You can herd them to water, but you may have to MAKE them cross it.

Thanks for the insight...

Jim

Offline Johnny Angel

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #18 on: Mar 11, 2006, 05:31 AM »
It was probably done for visual interest in the scene, or the lamb may have had trouble keeping up with the flock.

As for the religious overtones (Jesus as the Good Shepherd), in bibical times, whenever a lamb strayed from the flock, sometimes the shepherd would actually break one of the lambs legs and then would carry it around on his shoulders till the leg healed.  By the time it healed, the lamb would have bonded with the shepherd and never stray again. 

The analogy to that, of course, is that sometimes God allows bad things to happen to people so that while they mend, they will bond with Him. 

Offline Stephen

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #19 on: Mar 11, 2006, 12:03 PM »
I appreciate the mention of the Biblical reference to sheep..huge imagery (innocence...something in need of care/saving). Our Shepherds are Jack and Ennis. I like that Jack is nursing the injured sheep while Ennis sits nearby...Jack suggests eating a sheep, but Ennis says no and kills the Elk.... after innocence is lost in the 1st tent scene we see a dead sheep...after the great storm the sheep wander and mix with different  sheep....and when our boys bring them down, Aguirre says that some of these sheep are not the same as the ones who left with you!  There is alot in the first 30 minutes of the film...

All these detail are wonderful; yes, the first 30 minutes are packed with subtle imagery, and the Biblical references, which I had not thought of, do add depth and poignancy to these bucolic scenes in the mountains.....are there details in the film that suggest Ennis and Jack had done this kind of work before? I can't recall.
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Offline bnjmn3

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #20 on: Mar 11, 2006, 06:10 PM »
Jake worked for Aguirre the previous summer.
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Offline guajillo55

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #21 on: Mar 11, 2006, 06:29 PM »
Jake worked for Aguirre the previous summer.

Wow, I didn't know that--I guess Jake really does research his roles thoroughly!  :P

Offline guajillo55

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #22 on: Mar 11, 2006, 06:45 PM »
Jake worked for Aguirre the previous summer.

Wow, I didn't know that--I guess Jake really does research his roles thoroughly!  :P

Offline Patriot1

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #23 on: Mar 12, 2006, 12:48 AM »
.....are there details in the film that suggest Ennis and Jack had done this kind of work before? I can't recall.

There is no reference in the film, screenplay or short story that would suggest Ennis had any experience with sheep herding.  On the contrary, Ennis asked Jack what to do when the sheep were intermixed with the other flock.

Jack, on the other hand, we are told, was a sheepherder last year at the least. So he did have at least one summer's experience.

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Offline johnboy

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #24 on: Mar 12, 2006, 06:07 AM »
a lamb to the slaughter aka jack carrying one, later to be murdered (possibly)
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Offline Stephen

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #25 on: Mar 12, 2006, 09:58 AM »
Thanks for the replies. I was curious that both boys looked so at home with the sheep, especially in the brief glimpses of each holding or carrying a lamb.....One member of the forum here said he wished the film had spent more time in the mountains: I had the same feeling after first seeing BBM. Then I realized that being with Ennis and Jack in the mountains, before the affair and in their sojourns later, was a feel-good forstalling of the inevitable tragedy......how surreal that a mythic place and fictional characters can so powerfully take over one's imagination!
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Offline jagrafess

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #26 on: Mar 14, 2006, 04:18 AM »
Sheep. And lots of them.  Symbolism gone mad or just a happy accident? 

I think there's much to be made of the sheep references.  But to be honest the interpretations are just so vague as to make them almost implausable.  The key message, for me, came when Ennis found the dead and eaten sheep the morning after he'd had sex with Jack for the first time.  It's kind of symbolic of a loss of innocence but tasted (to me) of a betrayal of trust or a lapse of duty.  Tied up with Ennis' life, it might represent what happens when Ennis succumbs to his desires.
For him to "give in" and find love with Jack will always prevent Ennis from doing his duty.  Interestingly too, the two deaths in Brokeback Mountain are that unfortunate sheep (and I bet that sheepdog had a bite) and Jack Twist.  Ennis wasn't doing his duty protecting his sheep, and wasn't doing his "duty" by not being around Jack when he could have protected him (or so Ennis thought I guess). 
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Offline siredevienne38

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #27 on: Mar 14, 2006, 04:09 PM »
Let me syhere one thing guyz, you should read other books than the bible; the Decamerone oder "Les Fleurs du Mal" f.e. offers a lot more ;)

Offline frances

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #28 on: Jun 21, 2006, 06:02 AM »
Sheep. And lots of them.  Symbolism gone mad or just a happy accident? 

I think there's much to be made of the sheep references.  But to be honest the interpretations are just so vague as to make them almost implausable.  The key message, for me, came when Ennis found the dead and eaten sheep the morning after he'd had sex with Jack for the first time.  It's kind of symbolic of a loss of innocence but tasted (to me) of a betrayal of trust or a lapse of duty.  Tied up with Ennis' life, it might represent what happens when Ennis succumbs to his desires.
For him to "give in" and find love with Jack will always prevent Ennis from doing his duty. 



That's reinforced by the expression on Ennis' face, which looks like guilt : he left the sheep alone, had sex with a man, and now look what happened....




 Interestingly too, the two deaths in Brokeback Mountain are that unfortunate sheep (and I bet that sheepdog had a bite) and Jack Twist.  Ennis wasn't doing his duty protecting his sheep, and wasn't doing his "duty" by not being around Jack when he could have protected him (or so Ennis thought I guess). 




There's another scene : the one we see in Ennis's head of Earl's murder.
Anyway, I agree with you. We may see the dead sheep as a foreshadowing for Jack's cruel fate. Indepentent from the accident vs. murder debate, because either eventualities are a cruel way to die. "Drowned in his own blood...."





 

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Offline welshwitch

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Re: carrying the lamb
« Reply #29 on: Jun 21, 2006, 06:09 AM »
The sheep that's eviscerated looks so much like Earl that they have to be analagous - he killled by homophobes, the sheep by predatory coyotes,their animal analogue, Jack by homphobes and left, like Earl and the sheep, stretched out on the grass - all flesh is grass.